Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly complicated. The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily derive the approximation "Czech". That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and subsequently traditional English geographical term for what became the Czech lands. It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have nothing much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was the universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century and sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy until the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the Latin name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the place name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France "Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe (interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even though they would not have done so in their own language. They simply used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived from a Latin geographical term. Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term inappropriate. I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, "Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who am I to argue with him? In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use "Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use "German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that subject is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss in what has already gotten to be too long a message. ______________________________

"American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! Kevin Kittilson wrote: >Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep >recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >complicated. > >The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily >derive the approximation "Czech". > >That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin >and subsequently traditional English geographical term for what >became the Czech lands. > >It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have nothing >much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened >to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was >the universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century >and sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy >until the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants >of a region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. > >Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. > >This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the Latin >name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the place >name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call >Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. > >For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >though they would not have done so in their own language. They simply >used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived >from a Latin geographical term. > >Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term inappropriate. >I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >am I to argue with him? > >In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. > >BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that subject >is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss in >what has already gotten to be too long a message. >______________________________ > > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >and/or lose subscription privileges. > > > >

Agree, John. Rose john <[email protected]> 04/11/2006 07:48 AM Please respond to [email protected] To [email protected] cc Subject Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! Kevin Kittilson wrote: >Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep >recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >complicated. > >The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily >derive the approximation "Czech". > >That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin >and subsequently traditional English geographical term for what >became the Czech lands. > >It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have nothing >much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened >to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was >the universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century >and sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy >until the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants >of a region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. > >Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. > >This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the Latin >name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the place >name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call >Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. > >For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >though they would not have done so in their own language. They simply >used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived >from a Latin geographical term. > >Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term inappropriate. >I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >am I to argue with him? > >In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. > >BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that subject >is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss in >what has already gotten to be too long a message. >______________________________ > > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >and/or lose subscription privileges. > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail.