since Czechoslovakia never existed in that name until 1918.......then what they spoke prior to that was ?????? It was the Kingdom of Bohemia......wouldn't they then speak BOHEMIAN??? Barbara ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [CZ] Czech / Bohemian language > Another for instance. It has been stated by both my dad's immediate > family in Indiana and his uncle in Wisconsin's children, that their > grandmother spoke only Bohemian. Never said Czech, so is Bohemian just > another dialect of the Czech language? Boy am I confusing the issue even > MORE or WHAT? HA HA. sorry folks... > > > Ron and Betty Mlejnek wrote: > >> Everything would be correct when using geographical points of reference. >> However, I do not think that Czechs from Bohemia considered themselves >> identical to Germans from Bohemia. Ethnically and linguistically they >> are different because the had "dreams" in different languages. A person >> from Armenia might call himself an Armenian even if he lived in Prague. >> :-D >> >> As for "Czech" meaning "Bohemian" in the Czech language when used as an >> adjective, I doubt that statement. I have been told there is no such >> word as "Bohemian" in the Czech language. For example, Böhmisch-Leipa is >> the same as Ceska Lipa. The first is Anglicized German and the second is >> Anglicized Czech. >> >> In modern Czech, there might be an adoption of the word "Bohemian" as a >> colloquial term, just like Webster's dictionary eventually accepts slang >> as "proper usage", but in the 1800's I doubt if that term meant anything >> to anyone except an American working in the Immigration Services. >> >> Of course there is always the dreadful Boehmisch language controversy: >> >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2000-04/0956165740 >> >> One might want to follow this thread for "relief" that was carried on by >> Karen Hobbs, Lavrentiy Krupnak, and Frank Soural who are all people I >> highly admire. These Germans from Bohemia are always looking at things >> from the German viewpoint, so I see the Boehmisch language as a German >> invention. :'( >> >> ron >> >> >> At 05:22 PM 04/09/2006, you wrote: >> >>> The list dances around this periodically. What do >>> you call the subjects of the Emperor who came to >>> America in the mid-1800s from the historical >>> region of Bohemia? Is this a true statement? >>> >>> "In the Czech language, there is no distinction >>> between the adjectives Bohemian and Czech >>> (ceský)." >>> >>> http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/bohemia >>> >>> Elaine >>> >>> Education is the jewel casting brilliance >>> into the future. --Mari Evans >>> >>> Hello Ron >>> >>> On Sunday, April 9, 2006, you wrote >>> >>> > This issue of language and ethnicity seems to come up over and over >>> > on this Mail List and it never seems to be >>> > resolved. It is like the >>> > question "Is James the American version of Vaclav?" Probably the >>> > best answer is go search the archives of this list. >>> >>> > The term "Bohemian" and the "Bohemian language" seems so deeply >>> > rooted in our psyche that we refuse to "let it go" despite good >>> > arguments to the contrary. Indeed, why not call this list the >>> > "Bohemian Mail List". The reason it is not >>> > called the Bohemian List >>> > is that it is an inaccurate term to apply to our ancestors if they >>> > lived in Bohemia and Moravia. >>> >>> > When our great great grandparents went to >>> > school, what language do >>> > you think they were taught? Can you imagine >>> > their teacher using the >>> > Czech language or the German language to tell >>> > their students to begin >>> > their exercises in "Bohemian"? I think that would be absurd! :'( >>> >>> > I have pointed out before that immigrants >>> > coming to the US (and other >>> > countries) for the first time encountered the word "Bohemian" in the >>> > English language. It may have been in other languages too, but >>> > "Bohemian" is not a word in the Czech language! They encountered >>> > that term on American Manifests where it was >>> > incorrectly listed as an >>> > "Ethnic Group" or "Race of Peoples". There was no such term or >>> > choice as "Czech". >>> >>> > An immigrant not knowing the English language would certainly be >>> > expected to accept a term that was "close >>> > enough". Like working for >>> > the Government! If you lived in Bohemia, you might be a >>> > "Bohemian". <:-| Unfortunately, if you lived in Paris and you were >>> > an enlightened freethinker or some other type >>> > of social maverick, you >>> > would also be called a "Bohemian". >>> >>> > The second problem is how languages change. If anyone educated in >>> > the US picked up a handwritten text from the "Colonial Period", I >>> > would bet they could not read it even though it was written in the >>> > best English known at that time. Language and the use of language >>> > changes with time. >>> >>> > I grew up in Omaha, NE and the only "accent" I knew about was one >>> > called "Southern". My cousins from Florida did not speak the same >>> > language when they visited. After about a >>> > week, I finally figured >>> > out what they were saying. "Goin' fer a rod" was taking the bikes >>> > out. I was later told that the Midwestern >>> > accent (which is spoken in >>> > Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, and elsewhere) was the most common >>> > one. That made me feel a whole lot better. :-) >>> >>> > Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced >>> > to move to rural Nebraska. I worked with a >>> > fellow born in Aurora, NE >>> > and educated at the University of Nebraska who I could barely >>> > understand. I thought I had died and moved to Texas! X;{ >>> > . Everybody spoke "texan" in rural Nebraska! After 30 years I still >>> > cannot get used to it! >>> >>> > Anyway, from my very limited point of view (on the high plains of >>> > North Texas), I know that languages evolve and they do so very >>> > quickly. I was told that at one time by a liguist, the Slavic >>> > language of Slovakia and the Slavic language of Greater Moravia and >>> > even Bohemia was the same language. I have a strong suspicion that >>> > that language (whatever it was called) was over an even broader area >>> > than that. >>> >>> > Today, the National Language of the Czech Republic is called >>> > Czech. For those of us who had families from Bohemia, parts of >>> > Silesia, and Moravia; our breathing and living cousins are speaking >>> > and writing in Czech and not "Bohemian". >>> > However, there are distinct >>> > differences. For example, I have taken a >>> > personal interest in the >>> > the Moravske-Slovako area called the Hornacko: >>> >>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mlejnek/Hornacko.htm >>> >>> > In that region, the customs and the language >>> > are not the same as used >>> > in Prague. It is not even the same as the one in Brno. It is a rich >>> > mixture of Czech and Slovak and some words not known in "Modern >>> > Czech". They still use the "w" in their >>> > surnames. A young Czech >>> > told me I was "full of it" until I sent him a list of surnames from >>> > the region. They have to use the "w" because they border on states >>> > that use it! In the past these artificial >>> > boundaries meant nothing >>> > when it came to language and customs. >>> >>> > Even though I am still not able to figure out the Czech language (an >>> > never will), I at least accept that what means something in one >>> > locale may not be the same in another. I accept that the Czech >>> > heritage is a very rich and lasting one and I >>> > am not leaving the word >>> > "bohemian" in any of my children's vocabulary except as person of a >>> > free spirit like myself. >>> >>> > ron >> >> >> >> >> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >> Czech Message Boards are at >> http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic >> >> >

I think the spoke "Czechoslovakian". That is why they formed the country of Czechoslovakia. :-D At 07:01 PM 04/09/2006, you wrote: >since Czechoslovakia never existed in that name >until 1918.......then what they spoke prior to >that was ?????? It was the Kingdom of >Bohemia......wouldn't they then speak BOHEMIAN??? >Barbara >----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 7:00 PM >Subject: Re: [CZ] Czech / Bohemian language > > >>Another for instance. It has been stated by >>both my dad's immediate family in Indiana and >>his uncle in Wisconsin's children, that their >>grandmother spoke only Bohemian. Never said >>Czech, so is Bohemian just another dialect of >>the Czech language? Boy am I confusing the >>issue even MORE or WHAT? HA HA. sorry folks... >> >> >>Ron and Betty Mlejnek wrote: >> >>>Everything would be correct when using >>>geographical points of reference. However, I >>>do not think that Czechs from Bohemia >>>considered themselves identical to Germans >>>from Bohemia. Ethnically and linguistically >>>they are different because the had "dreams" in >>>different languages. A person from Armenia >>>might call himself an Armenian even if he lived in Prague. :-D >>> >>>As for "Czech" meaning "Bohemian" in the Czech >>>language when used as an adjective, I doubt >>>that statement. I have been told there is no >>>such word as "Bohemian" in the Czech >>>language. For example, Böhmisch-Leipa is the >>>same as Ceska Lipa. The first is Anglicized >>>German and the second is Anglicized Czech. >>> >>>In modern Czech, there might be an adoption of >>>the word "Bohemian" as a colloquial term, just >>>like Webster's dictionary eventually accepts >>>slang as "proper usage", but in the 1800's I >>>doubt if that term meant anything to anyone >>>except an American working in the Immigration Services. >>> >>>Of course there is always the dreadful Boehmisch language controversy: >>> >>>http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GERMAN-BOHEMIAN/2000-04/0956165740 >>> >>>One might want to follow this thread for >>>"relief" that was carried on by Karen Hobbs, >>>Lavrentiy Krupnak, and Frank Soural who are >>>all people I highly admire. These Germans >>>from Bohemia are always looking at things from >>>the German viewpoint, so I see the Boehmisch >>>language as a German invention. :'( >>> >>>ron >>> >>> >>>At 05:22 PM 04/09/2006, you wrote: >>> >>>>The list dances around this periodically. What do >>>>you call the subjects of the Emperor who came to >>>>America in the mid-1800s from the historical >>>>region of Bohemia? Is this a true statement? >>>> >>>>"In the Czech language, there is no distinction >>>>between the adjectives Bohemian and Czech >>>>(ceský)." >>>> >>>>http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/bohemia >>>> >>>>Elaine >>>> >>>>Education is the jewel casting brilliance >>>>into the future. --Mari Evans >>>> >>>>Hello Ron >>>> >>>>On Sunday, April 9, 2006, you wrote >>>> >>>> > This issue of language and ethnicity seems to come up over and over >>>> > on this Mail List and it never seems to be >>>> > resolved. It is like the >>>> > question "Is James the American version of Vaclav?" Probably the >>>> > best answer is go search the archives of this list. >>>> >>>> > The term "Bohemian" and the "Bohemian language" seems so deeply >>>> > rooted in our psyche that we refuse to "let it go" despite good >>>> > arguments to the contrary. Indeed, why not call this list the >>>> > "Bohemian Mail List". The reason it is not >>>> > called the Bohemian List >>>> > is that it is an inaccurate term to apply to our ancestors if they >>>> > lived in Bohemia and Moravia. >>>> >>>> > When our great great grandparents went to >>>> > school, what language do >>>> > you think they were taught? Can you imagine >>>> > their teacher using the >>>> > Czech language or the German language to tell >>>> > their students to begin >>>> > their exercises in "Bohemian"? I think that would be absurd! :'( >>>> >>>> > I have pointed out before that immigrants >>>> > coming to the US (and other >>>> > countries) for the first time encountered the word "Bohemian" in the >>>> > English language. It may have been in other languages too, but >>>> > "Bohemian" is not a word in the Czech language! They encountered >>>> > that term on American Manifests where it was >>>> > incorrectly listed as an >>>> > "Ethnic Group" or "Race of Peoples". There was no such term or >>>> > choice as "Czech". >>>> >>>> > An immigrant not knowing the English language would certainly be >>>> > expected to accept a term that was "close >>>> > enough". Like working for >>>> > the Government! If you lived in Bohemia, you might be a >>>> > "Bohemian". <:-| Unfortunately, if you lived in Paris and you were >>>> > an enlightened freethinker or some other type >>>> > of social maverick, you >>>> > would also be called a "Bohemian". >>>> >>>> > The second problem is how languages change. If anyone educated in >>>> > the US picked up a handwritten text from the "Colonial Period", I >>>> > would bet they could not read it even though it was written in the >>>> > best English known at that time. Language and the use of language >>>> > changes with time. >>>> >>>> > I grew up in Omaha, NE and the only "accent" I knew about was one >>>> > called "Southern". My cousins from Florida did not speak the same >>>> > language when they visited. After about a >>>> > week, I finally figured >>>> > out what they were saying. "Goin' fer a rod" was taking the bikes >>>> > out. I was later told that the Midwestern >>>> > accent (which is spoken in >>>> > Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, and elsewhere) was the most common >>>> > one. That made me feel a whole lot better. :-) >>>> >>>> > Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I was forced >>>> > to move to rural Nebraska. I worked with a >>>> > fellow born in Aurora, NE >>>> > and educated at the University of Nebraska who I could barely >>>> > understand. I thought I had died and moved to Texas! X;{ >>>> > . Everybody spoke "texan" in rural Nebraska! After 30 years I still >>>> > cannot get used to it! >>>> >>>> > Anyway, from my very limited point of view (on the high plains of >>>> > North Texas), I know that languages evolve and they do so very >>>> > quickly. I was told that at one time by a liguist, the Slavic >>>> > language of Slovakia and the Slavic language of Greater Moravia and >>>> > even Bohemia was the same language. I have a strong suspicion that >>>> > that language (whatever it was called) was over an even broader area >>>> > than that. >>>> >>>> > Today, the National Language of the Czech Republic is called >>>> > Czech. For those of us who had families from Bohemia, parts of >>>> > Silesia, and Moravia; our breathing and living cousins are speaking >>>> > and writing in Czech and not "Bohemian". >>>> > However, there are distinct >>>> > differences. For example, I have taken a >>>> > personal interest in the >>>> > the Moravske-Slovako area called the Hornacko: >>>> >>>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mlejnek/Hornacko.htm >>>> >>>> > In that region, the customs and the language >>>> > are not the same as used >>>> > in Prague. It is not even the same as the one in Brno. It is a rich >>>> > mixture of Czech and Slovak and some words not known in "Modern >>>> > Czech". They still use the "w" in their >>>> > surnames. A young Czech >>>> > told me I was "full of it" until I sent him a list of surnames from >>>> > the region. They have to use the "w" because they border on states >>>> > that use it! In the past these artificial >>>> > boundaries meant nothing >>>> > when it came to language and customs. >>>> >>>> > Even though I am still not able to figure out the Czech language (an >>>> > never will), I at least accept that what means something in one >>>> > locale may not be the same in another. I accept that the Czech >>>> > heritage is a very rich and lasting one and I >>>> > am not leaving the word >>>> > "bohemian" in any of my children's vocabulary except as person of a >>>> > free spirit like myself. >>>> >>>> > ron >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>>Czech Message Boards are at >>>http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic >>> > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from this list click on >mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) or >mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe (digest mode) >Contact [email protected] for list related problems >For the CZECH-L archives, go to http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/czech