John is making a concession. So don't anybody 'beat me up' hahahaahah. Ok I will admit that the American system of schooling leads quite a LOT to be desired. I retract my former statement. Thank you very much. :) Y'all have a nice day Susan Williams wrote: > I know that several people have agreed with John when he criticized > Kevin. The truth of the matter is that while Kevin's comments may be > considered harsh, I think they are true. Our knowledge of history > leaves much to be desired. I include myself in this -- and I am always > trying to rectify this. It's more fun to search for ancestors ... and > not so much fun to read history books. But that's what is is > necessary. In order to understand your genealogy and family > history better, you also need to understand world history. Susan > ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language > > >> "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and >> philology"......Gee that was not very nice! >> >> >> Kevin Kittilson wrote: >> >>> Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >>> deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this >>> keep recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >>> complicated. >>> >>> The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >>> term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >>> terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >>> themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily derive >>> the approximation "Czech". >>> That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >>> Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and >>> subsequently traditional English geographical term for what became >>> the Czech lands. >>> It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have >>> nothing >>> much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they >>> happened to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it >>> was described geographically by early geographers writing in the >>> time of ancient Rome. As was the case for almost all learned >>> writing, the Latin language was the universal language of scholars >>> all over Europe up to the 17th century and sometimes even later. It >>> was the universal language of diplomacy until the close of the >>> Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a region had >>> their own name for a place in their own language, most others around >>> them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >>> were considered more both more "correct" and more universally >>> understood. >>> Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >>> became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. >>> This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English >>> the Latin name German to the people who call themselves the >>> "deutsch" and the place >>> name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as >>> Deutschland. That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the >>> Germani, who similarly lived there when the Romans described that >>> one. Interestingly, the French picked up the alternative Latin >>> name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call Germany "allemagne." >>> The germans, on the other hand, call France "Frankreich", which >>> means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe (interestingly >>> enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. >>> >>> For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >>> deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >>> though they would not have done so in their own language. They >>> simply used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, >>> derived from a Latin geographical term. >>> Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians >>> after >>> arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. >>> Thus I >>> must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term >>> inappropriate. >>> I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated >>> Czech- >>> Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >>> "Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and >>> grammars, >>> and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of >>> Wisconsin >>> and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself >>> Bohemian, who >>> am I to argue with him? >>> >>> In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to >>> use "Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly >>> never use "German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for >>> those places either. >>> >>> BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues >>> relating to >>> the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not >>> because I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but >>> because that subject >>> is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to >>> discuss in what has already gotten to be too long a message. >>> ______________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>> No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >>> chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >>> and/or lose subscription privileges. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >> Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. >> >> > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Czech Message Boards are at > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >