I have to disagree with you and agree with Kevin. The truth hurts, but it is still the truth. Get used to it. Anthony. Rose M Carrabine <[email protected]> wrote: Agree, John. Rose john 04/11/2006 07:48 AM Please respond to [email protected] To [email protected] cc Subject Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! Kevin Kittilson wrote: >Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep >recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >complicated. > >The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily >derive the approximation "Czech". > >That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin >and subsequently traditional English geographical term for what >became the Czech lands. > >It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have nothing >much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened >to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was >the universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century >and sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy >until the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants >of a region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. > >Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. > >This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the Latin >name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the place >name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call >Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. > >For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >though they would not have done so in their own language. They simply >used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived >from a Latin geographical term. > >Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term inappropriate. >I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >am I to argue with him? > >In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. > >BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that subject >is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss in >what has already gotten to be too long a message. >______________________________ > > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >and/or lose subscription privileges. > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the list address and add the individual's address. --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.