I have been searching for the location of the village of Cenkov for several years. Does the following make sense, or am I running off track? I have a copy of a contract my great grandfather made to cancel rent of a mill at "Cenkov, Horovive dominion". I believe this Cenkov (one of several in Bohemia) is the one located 10 km Southeast of Horovice, and 2 km Southeast of Jince. I believe this to be so because of the information I found on Ing. Felix Gundacker's great web site http://www.ihff.at/indexstarte.htm which describes THIS Cenkov to be in the "former judicial denomination of Horovice", and in the "Parish attribution" of Jince. Any comments directly or via this group are much appreciated. Joe Pehoushek (Pechousek) Punta Gorda, FL

Kevin, Thanks much for sharing the translation of the deed with us. It is very interesting and its good to know that this kind of information is available. Seems to make the family history "alive". Lillian

Here is the text of the deed I mentioned in my last message, which shows what kind of information you may find in them. From this one we get a description of the farm, a specific reference to a prior deed, a list of the obligations due to the lord of the manor, and some rather detailed family information: "On the day and year subscribed below, this farm purchase contract was concluded between Jan Jenissta of Voderady, mentally incompetent, as seller, by his guardian Matey Cermak, and with the concurrence of his wife Dorota Jenisstova; and his son Jan Jenissta, who has now reached the age of majority, as buyer. The guardian, Matey Cermak, with the agreement of Dorota, wife of the seller and owner of that farm described according to the entry in the land register of Voderady from the year 1766, at folio 72, hereby conveys the farm, together with all of the manorial duties, to the aforesaid Jan Jenissta. This farm, Voderady No. 7, contains 114 merice in field land, 19 merice in meadow, pasture and garden land, and 85 merice of woodland. The farm is sold to the son Jan Jenissta for 800 fl, to be paid as follows: The new owner to pay to Matey Cermak, his father's guardian, and to his mother Dorota Jenissta, 600 gold florins, which he obtained as dowry from his father-in-law Joseph Wawrousek at the time of his marriage. The remainder, to be paid in installments by Jan Jenissta and his wife until the total is paid, being 200 fl. Total 800 fl. This sale is subject to a prior sale of part of the field land of this farm to Jan and Marie Pospisil, husband and wife; provided that if they or their descendants return that field land to the farm, the buyer shall be obligated to refund to them 100 fl. The seller will also receive from the new owner one-third of the harvest of the grain which he has sown. The new owner shall have the duty to provide to Jakub Jenissta, a retired peasant & farmer, the following: a room in the cottage, 10 merice of rye, 10 m. of barley, 6 m. of oats, 4 three-scores of cabbage, 6 three-scores of sugar-beets, use of the short part of the field for flax, 2 saih of firewood, 2 pines chipped into kindling, 8 quintals of hay, 4 quintals of aftergrass, 4 shocks of rye straw, and 4 shocks of oat straw, and the new owner's daughter must pasture the pensioner's 2 cows along with the new owner's herd of cattle. In addition, the pensioner will have the use of the garden below the cottage, one fruit tree above the cottage, and two cherry trees near the cottage, all to be provided or to his use, until his death. The new owner shall also have the duty to provide to his ill uncle, Josef Jenissta, as a provision of this contract, the following: one yearling foal, one cow, one heifer. He is to let him take care of and to reap 1 ½ acres of field for his brother. Should Josef marry away from the farm then he shall receive from the farmer as compensation, in lieu of the room and field, 50 fl. and the items needed for the marriage celebration, ie, his trousseau, and 1 m. of wheat, 2 m. of rye, and money for meat, salt and spices. The new owner will also assume the obligation to pay taxes to His Royal and Imperial Majesty the King and Emperor according to assessment, and is to pay to the owner of the manor according to custom the con- tinued interest: on St George's day 59 kr., and on St. Havel's day 14 kr; as well as to provide the manor with 2 three-scores of shingles. The new owner shall assume the robota duty to work 3 days per week with 1 horse on the county land, and to perform 13 days hand labor on the land of the lord of the manor between St. John's day and St. Wencel's day. This contract of sale is hereby confirmed by the office of the City of Litomysl for entry in the land register. Signed and subscribed to by the seller and buyer and by the witnesses at Voderady this the 28th of December 1829. Matey Cermak, guardian Matey Rozlilek, village bailiff xxx signature of Dorota Jenistova, Waczlaw Czermak, witness seller, by Jan Janeczek Confirmed and entered in the Register by the clerk of the office of the city of Litomysl, 2 May 1830" ------- PS If it helps anyone to follow what is going on in this deed, here are the somewhat complicated relationships of the people named: Jan Jenissta (Sr.), the seller, married first to Krystina Cermak, who was the mother of the buyer, Jan Jenissta, (Jr.), but had already died. Matej Cermak, the seller's guardian, was her brother. (He was also married to the seller's half-sister, Mariana Jenisstova. I am not sure which of these relationships was the basis for his selection as guardian, maybe both.) Dorota, mentioned in the deed, was the seller's 2d wife. As we learn from the deed, Jan Jenissta (Jr.), the buyer, had recently married a daughter of Josef Vavrousek (Mariana). Jakub Jenissta, the "retired farmer", was the prior owner. By his first marriage, he was the father of the seller Jan Jenissta (Sr.). He had sold him the farm in an earlier deed, reserving the same obligations to himself ("a room in the cottage" etc.). By a second marriage, Jakub was also the father of Josef Jenissta , who is mentioned in the deed as the buyer's uncle. For those interested, this farm was described in other records as a "big farm" for that time and place. It comprised under our system of measurement 54 acres field land, 8 acres of meadow, pasture & garden, and 40 acres of woodlands. >>> ETM <Chook@starpower.net> 7/7/2004 11:57:43 AM >>> Kevin, Thank you for this good post. I would be very interested in the translated deed. Elaine > If anyone is interested I can post a translation of a deed from 1829 > as an example of the kind of information you can get from them.

Judi, I think you would really have to get a professional researcher to answer that. If you are here in the States, though, the answer may be pretty easy .... the records do not exist here and AFAIK the Archives have ceased doing research for mail-in requests. Even when they did research, only the church records were reported. So you have to be over in CR, make arrangements for access to the archives and know what you are looking for. Don't forget that depending on the age and region of land records being researched you may be dealing with old Czech, German or Latin at times with nearly indecipherable writing. Unless you are well versed in the old languages and styles of writing, you may have a rather difficult chore. To see an example of this, just go to a county courthouse (again presuming you are Stateside) and try to read some of the land transfers and wills from the early 1700s that are in English .... Just my thoughts for what their worth .... Regards, Jim Sladek judi wrote: > Please tell me what it is that professional researchers have at their > disposal, that we don't have access to at the archives. I do > understand that land records are not easy to get to. Why is that?

I would also be interested. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: ETM [mailto:Chook@starpower.net] > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:58 PM > To: CZECH-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CZ] Land Records > > Kevin, > > Thank you for this good post. I would be very interested in > the translated deed. > > Elaine > > > > If anyone is interested I can post a translation of a deed from 1829 > > as an example of the kind of information you can get from them. > > > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are > making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the > list address and add the individual's address.

Kevin, Thank you for this good post. I would be very interested in the translated deed. Elaine > If anyone is interested I can post a translation of a deed from 1829 > as an example of the kind of information you can get from them.

Regarding the questions about land records - I also had some research done which required their use and may be able to give some idea of their value and characteristics. Because for Czech-Americans, our ancestors, with very very rare exceptions, were peasants, I will not discuss land records dealing with members of the nobility. There were many different kinds of serfs, but for land records we are mostly interested in those who owned land. So if your ancestor is found referred to as a sedlak (farmer), chalupnik or domkar (cottager), then you may be able to find land records; on the other hand, if he was a farm laborer without land (ie, podruh), then there will not be such a record. The records were maintained by the feudal estate or manor, which was considered the "real" owner of the land. The serf's ownership was of a lesser sort, and its character varied from place to place and over time. His right in the land was subject to payment of traditional feudal dues to the lord, whether in money or goods, and was also subject to an obligation to perform labor for the feudal lord (known as "robota", source of our word "robot" thanks to early Czech science fiction author Karel Capek.) The land records can be very useful because, for the landed peasant, land contracts typically were used to arrange for the "inheritance" of the land within his family, and to arrange the details of the inheritance among his children and between them and the parent couple in their old age. Customarily, peasants tended to pass the land down to an eldest son, selling it to him during their lifetime and reserving for themselves certain property and payments for use during their remaining lifetime. The child purchasing the property was not uncommonly required to provide certain specified things for his siblings. All this is set out in detail in the deed. Similarly, the purchaser had to assume whatever duties of this kind were carried over from prior deeds, which may tell you a lot about family members from prior generations, for example if grandparents or uncles are still living. If there was no son to take over the farm when the couple retired, it might be sold to a daughter's husband. If the farmer died or became incapacited and his children were not yet of age, the land might be sold to neighbors who agreed to support the family and then to sell it back to one of the minor children when he reached the age of majority. I strongly recommend that anyone looking for such deeds use a well- qualified Czech researcher. They are extremely hard to read, being handwritten in the old writing, and a strong knowledge of the language is critical to make any sense of them at all. If anyone is interested I can post a translation of a deed from 1829 as an example of the kind of information you can get from them.

This summer when I was visiting family, I spent several days at various archives in the CR. One of the things I was hoping to find was ownership information. Items that I found related to my family were located in several different types of records at these archives. I mainly was looking at matriky in the Oblastni Archive. But while at one, I asked about land records. They pulled out a book/catalog that listed what they had for the various towns in the region. I requested two books from differnt time frames just to get an idea of what they were like. I think the reason you would want to have a researcher look at them is that they are not in a nice tabular or scripted format like the matriky. It would take someone who can read the writing of that time to determine the important information, and sometimes the entry goes on for several pages. It would take awhile to search the multiple books necessary to see the bigger picture for that land/family from those entries. In some of the Okresni Archivy, I found census records. The archives made copies for me at no charge. Each house had a separate 'file' of several pages that included all family who normally lived there but may also be off on military duty - and if in military, their regiment and location was noted..... Also listed birth year, family relation, occupation, and if citizen of the town they were residing in - physical residence does not automatically mean they were priveleged to the rights of a citizen of the town. The entries tabulated quantities of various animals. Also in the okresni archiv I visited were books of marriage banns. If unable to find a marraige record, this would be useful to determine family marriages. I also viewed an Ubarz book from one town; the one for my ancestral town did not exist, but that for the nearest largeer- than-others-in-the-area did. The existances of these books is inconsistent for the various towns. They are, however, interesting to look at; the writing was extremely archaic to my eye, although the archivist had little difficult reading it! In general, the information in the these archives is not consistent in record type. In the State Central Archives on Milady Horkova, I as able to view the maps for my towns - indikaci skizzy (I think that is soelling), some books generated about the same time listing land sections ownded by various people along with their house number (for one town the records were about 1841, and 1858). I also looked a some copies of Cadastral books for that town, but since I do not read much Czech and have a difficult time with some of th older script, I do not know what was being recorded. I do know I foumnd my ancestors name on multiple pages, but there were also columns and indicators whose purpose I do not know. So, if you can read old Czech, you could acess the land records if you were to go to the archives, assuming they still exizt for your towns. However, the trick is to know what it is they are recording. The other problem one might encounter is that it takes time to go through the records, so if you are visiting there for only a few days, you might not want to spend all your time in the archives 'czeching' them out. There are records not accessible to the public, but that could be because they have not been catalogued and arranged for easy access. Anettka

That is the first thing that came to mind also "buyers would care for the mother". Anyway thanks to everyone for the responses on Land Records. Carl --- Susan Williams <swilliams1200@comcast.net> wrote: > Judi - that sounds amazing that the buyers would > agree to care for the > mother. > But thinking about it, perhaps because the towns > were small they were really > a tight knit community and cared for one another as > if they were family. > Were the daughters ever able to travel back to > Cerniny at any time? I > enjoy the little details because I imagine it was > similar for many people. > Susan > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Czech Message Boards are at > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Judi - that sounds amazing that the buyers would agree to care for the mother. But thinking about it, perhaps because the towns were small they were really a tight knit community and cared for one another as if they were family. Were the daughters ever able to travel back to Cerniny at any time? I enjoy the little details because I imagine it was similar for many people. Susan

Ron Mlejnek wrote: > Jim suggests this question is too "restrictive". As I stated in my post "If you haven't received any answers, perhaps your subject is too restrictive". Apparently I should've said that the "subject line is too restrictive". It all depends on how many folks are researching land records in Moravia .... Because of the subject line, I almost deleted the posting without reading it. To respond to some of the other notes posted on this very subject, I can only relate to the research that was done by Jaroslav Fiala on my behalf. From the Prague Archives, I had previously had my family line determined back to about 1670 based on church records held at the archives. My tasking to Jaroslav was to go back as far as was reasonable (time-wise, cost-wise, etc). His approach was to research tax and land records starting in Praskolesy in the early 1700s. The research ended in the early 1600s in Tetin Bohemia because the earlier records of interest for that region would after many hours of research at most only yield a birth date of the son of my earliest ancestor. The books (records, microfilms) that were referenced in the five pages of record extracts and commentary were: Kapitula Karlstejn book 32, Grundbuch "Kniha gruntovniho rizeni aneb soudu purkrechtnich 1717-1799" Kapitula Karlstejn book 34, list of land 1710-1719 "Herrschaftliche und unter-thaenige Felder-Specifikacion bei dem Gut Praskoles" Kapitula Karlstejn book 41-2, "Registra rizeni stavunku 1675, 1698-1720" Kapitula Karlstejn book 32, Grundbuch 1665-1715 "Popis poddanych praskoleskych, toboleckych, menanskych gruntu, luk, poli a sacunku" Kapitula Karlstejn book 33, Grundbuch "Vytah ze starych register purkrechtnich" 1622 Church register Bezdedice, book 26 - index of births 1664-1733 Berni Rula Podbrdsko (Land register 1654) Church register of Karlstejn (1601-1651) Land registers of Tetin Vs Karlstejn book 255 1674 - Vs Karlstejn book 254 1647 -1674 Vs Karlstejn book 253 1608- Not all sources gave positive results and in at least one instance, only an index was available as the original book no longer existed. Other books were attempted, but found illegible. I don't know if the research was done on microfilm or the original document - quite possibly a combination of both. To attempt an answer to some of Ron's other questions, bear in mind that I am not an expert on land records and I am only developing my comments from Jaroslav's report. > 1) Are there such things as land records or is this a hoax? I think that has been answered above. > 2) How extensive are these records? In other words, do they only > include estates and estate owners or do they also include all > inhabitants of estates such as peasants? I believe that will depend on the region. The land records that have been extracted on my behalf are concerning land (farms) as it passes from person to person, e.g. after death of the husband, where it passes to the widow or children. How inclusive? don't forget that we're talking about records over four hundred years old that have gone through wars, etc. written under whatever rules existed for record keeping for the region at that time. > 3) It is indicated that they exist back to 1612. How far back do > such records go? Depends on the region and the conditions that underwhich the records were kept. In the region that I'm working with, I understand that few useable records exist earlier were researched. The remainder of the questions are on storage and access ... if memory serves, most records are in the state and regional archive system and that is where the research would have to be done .. on-site. The specific requirements for appointment time, permissions, etc would have top be obtained from the specific archive. For Millie's question: > Where did Jaroslav Fiala go to research these land records? How much > info was on the records? Can I assume that "land records" include > houses in the villages or is it farm land? Were occupations listed? Jaroslav's research was done at the Prague Archives. Roughly the information found were as mentioned above, purchasers, inherentences. Your assumption of the "land records" sounds reasonable although mine were only referrring to farm lands. For occupations, I think you would have to look at other documents than land records ... censuses, etc. Now that I have bored most reading this post, I better quit ... <grin> Regards. Jim Sladek

There was one Hluboky family living in Cerniny in the 1930's. Mr Hluboky died. His wife remained. Their daughters sold the house, with the understanding that the buyers would care for their mother. The daughters went to the US and the mother, Marie, remained until her death in 1938. judi

Thank you, John. I hadn't realized there were maps, but that makes sense. Well, no doubt my ancestors did not have large plots either. I have house numbers. I'm mostly seeking to find any information that goes back further than the recorded births and deaths that I have. I thought the land records might. Thanks..Millie

That would be my guess with my ancestors also. Whey you think about it, why would they bother!

What years? Czech Census records start about 1857?? to present day. Ron Mlejnek At 07:55 PM 07/06/2004, you wrote: >i want to determine who, in my family, lived in a particular house in >Cerniny. I have the name of the current owner......and approximate dates. >judi > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >All matters pertaining to list administration are exclusively >handled by the List Administrator. If you have personal >problems, questions or suggestions about list mail send an >email to the administrator. The subject is not appropriate >for list discussion.

i want to determine who, in my family, lived in a particular house in Cerniny. I have the name of the current owner......and approximate dates. judi

Mrbkdb112@cs.com wrote: > John, could you share with us what the cost of your research was? >I'm sure > it would be helpful to have some idea. I don't think it would tell you much to give prices. I requested some very specialized research along with the "routine stuff". In each of the 4 projects, the items were broken down and individually priced, some at a flat rate, some at an hourly rate. The last of my 4 reports was completed in October of 2002, so rates have no doubt gone up since. I will tell you that the total of my four reports, which included many birth, death, marriage, baptism records, and search with mixed luck of land, tax, military, school, police records, etc. was nearly $2,000 and I felt worth it. From what I have seen, research costs vary among professionals. Hourly rates differ, out of pocket expenses differ, travel expenses depend on distances covered, etc. > Apparently, when some research states that some family was "under the >estate > of a paraticular manor' this probably means they did not own land? >Or, could > they have owned their home, but were employed by the Manor. Yes to both questions. It depends on their socio-economic status. If you go to Karel Kysilka's web page, browse thru his many links and you will good information about the subject. > > I have one ancestor family that is classified as nobility of Nymburk. >Does > that mean they were nobles fo the castle there? The translations are >puzzling. I have no idea. John Fiala

I requested professional researchers to obtain cadastral maps for my ancestral villages. One is from ca. 1818 and the other ca. 1840. While family names appear on the larger plots, my ancestors were podruha and domkar with very small plots....too small for the name to fit on the maps. However, the researchers colored in the plots for me to show where they were. The maps were at the Praha State Central Archives, Department II, according to the research notes. John Fiala Mrbkdb112@cs.com wrote: > Jim, where did Jaroslav Fiala go to research these land records? How much > info was on the records? Can I assume that "land records" include houses in the > villages or is it farm land? Were occupations listed? > > Millie > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the list address and add the individual's address. > > >

I requested such information be looked for by professionals. They were not successful in my case, probably most likely that my ancestor left without permission. John Fiala Mrbkdb112@cs.com wrote: > That's what concerned me....that there would not be that much information on > it. Have you tried to get "Permission to Leave the Country" documents? I'm > thinking that most people didn't bother to apply for them if they were planning > on not coming back. > Millie > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the list address and add the individual's address. > > >

John, could you share with us what the cost of your research was? I'm sure it would be helpful to have some idea. Apparently, when some research states that some family was "under the estate of a paraticular manor' this probably means they did not own land? Or, could they have owned their home, but were employed by the Manor. I have one ancestor family that is classified as nobility of Nymburk. Does that mean they were nobles fo the castle there? The translations are puzzling. Millie