Hello list. I'm still looking for any information on ALBIN HAJEK. Sorry to keep "beating a dead horse" but I'm optomistic enough to thing that some day I'll get a good connection on him.... Albin was born 2-9-1888, married Johanna, had 2 children Ferdinand and Marie.... Thank you to a wonderful group of people out there... C&C

Judi, Really don't know about you? BTW. I had to laugh on this one, but then everyone does not know. don -----Original Message----- From: john [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:54 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language btw means by the way judi wrote: >speaking of which, what is BTW? >judi > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >Czech Message Boards are at >http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== If you'd like to search our archives, please visit http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CZECH

This list is an excellent way to inform ! I'm sure we've all learned from it !

I knew that "Back to Work" didn't make sense! judi

btw means by the way judi wrote: >speaking of which, what is BTW? >judi > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >Czech Message Boards are at >http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > > > >

Computerese. BTW = by the way. Elaine I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have. --Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) Hello judi On Tuesday, April 11, 2006, you wrote > speaking of which, what is BTW? > judi

speaking of which, what is BTW? judi

A friend of mine didn't think they had computers in the Czech Republic and had never heard of Prague judi

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/lRC.2ACE/3499.1 Message Board Post: Schwarzenbergs were really a noblemen family in Austria, which originated also in Bohemia. You can find Schwarzenberg family tree on this websites: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/schwarzb/schwarzb3.html or http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/2868/Panstvo.htm

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Schwartzenberg, Schwarzenberg, Schwartzenburg, Snheider Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/lRC.2ACE/3499 Message Board Post: SMy g.g.g. grandfather, John (Johan) Schwartzenberg was born in 1818. On a U.S. census, he stated that he was born in Switzerland, although his family was Austrian. He married Margaretha Shnieder, who was born in Germany in 1818. They immigrated to the U.S. before 1835, the year that their first child was born It is possible that one or two brothers came with him One branch of the family says that an Aunt came with him as well. She was known as Princess Anna Maria. While John and Margaretha settled in Pineville, (Rapides Parish) Louisiana, Anna Maria went on to Bethel Vermont where she then made her home. Each branch of the family here has the same story, that the Schwartzenbergs were Princes, and of the Princely House Of Schwartzenberg. We can go no further back than John. We are seeking info on who his parents were etc. I dont check the sites every day, so please contact me at the following: [email protected] I read only English. Any info would be appreciated. Thank You so very much and God Bless. Until Later--- Diane Eckert Tynes

Don't be too surprised. My public research librarian and the local FHC did not know "what" the Czech Republic was when I attempted to locate supporting materials early in my research. But I know here in Virginia they can provide great information aimed at ancestors who served in the confederate army. Entire library shelves house materials on our civil war. The GTA volumes were not complete, the Baca volumes were not available. Remember there is great information gathered and uploaded to the Czech Website. It is especially important that newcomers to Czech research make a stop there, in the end it will benefit them to know more about their ancestral history. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~elainetmaddox/ I also thank Kevin for being with us. He is an informed and articulate helper on this list and a valued member. Elaine It is a great error to take oneself for more than one is, or for less than one is worth. --Goethe Hello Don On Tuesday, April 11, 2006, you wrote > Just came back from my doctor's office, talked > to my doctor's nurse about > obtaining some antibiotics to take with me on my trip to the Czech > Republic. Nurse says: where? The Czech > Republic. Where is that? After > telling her, I had to spell 'Czech' > for her. > Don

Just came back from my doctor's office, talked to my doctor's nurse about obtaining some antibiotics to take with me on my trip to the Czech Republic. Nurse says: where? The Czech Republic. Where is that? After telling her, I had to spell 'Czech' for her. Don -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Kittilson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 1:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language I would like to apologize to anyone on the list who may have been offended by my comments about american schooling. I certainly did not mean to suggest in any way that any one on the list was uneducated or unschooled, but it seems some may have taken it that way. Nor was there any intent to impugn the fine contributions of the many very dedicated teachers in our schools. My frustration was with a fact about our society and certainly not with anyone on the list! What I don't think can be undisputed, however, is that due both to budget constraints and administrative priorites little emphasis is placed on history, especially non-US history, foreign languages, or foreign culture and neither is a particularly significant part of the required curriculum in most american public schools. Similarly, there is little real coverage of foreign news and cultures in the American mass media, other than where it directly affects US political interests or has a sufficient human interest factor, such as in the case of a natural disaster with high mortality rates. Others certainly may reasonably disagree over the extent to which these subjects should form part of the curriculum, and I do understand that in many schools it is difficult enough for struggling teachers to find the resources and time even to successfully convey the basic 3Rs. Obviously I am personally one of those who takes the opinion that more background in history and more understanding of other cultures should be taught in this country, especially where we, as a superpower, interact with the rest of the world in so many areas and so many ways. It may have been sufficient to ignore the rest of the world in the 19th century, but as multiple world wars and other conflicts and events have shown since that time, it is no longer possible to do so. To move on the world stage as an active player without an adequate understanding of the other places and peoples with which we interact is not merely arrogant, it is a recipe for disaster. More to the point vis a vis this list, such education would have been very helpful to most of us as genealogists whose ancestors were from places whose history we know little about. It was this last point that I clumsily tried to make in my comment about american education. I should not have allowed myself to express this as a matter of exasperation, and for that I apologize. Kevin BTW here are some interesting results of a survey done by National Geographic in 2002: "About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent. . . . And some results from a study in 2000 by the Center for Survey Research and Analysis, showing we don't even do very well on our own history: "More than 500 seniors at 55 of the best colleges and universities in the United States responded to the telephone questionnaire, which consisted of multiple choice questions on topics ranging from the Magna Carta to the Monroe Doctrine, from the Battle of Yorktown to the Battle of the Bulge. Sixty-five percent of the students -- from such schools as Yale, Northwestern, Smith, and Bowdoin -- failed to "pass" the test and only one student answered all 34 questions correctly. Ninety-nine percent of the respondents, however, correctly identified Beavis and Butthead!" >>> john <[email protected]> 04/11/06 6:48 AM >>> "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the list address and add the individual's address.

Thank you, Kevin, for your graciousness. Cultural and academic illiteracy has sadly become the norm in our society. Rose "Kevin Kittilson" <[email protected]> 04/11/2006 01:05 PM Please respond to [email protected] To [email protected] cc Subject Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language I would like to apologize to anyone on the list who may have been offended by my comments about american schooling. I certainly did not mean to suggest in any way that any one on the list was uneducated or unschooled, but it seems some may have taken it that way. Nor was there any intent to impugn the fine contributions of the many very dedicated teachers in our schools. My frustration was with a fact about our society and certainly not with anyone on the list! What I don't think can be undisputed, however, is that due both to budget constraints and administrative priorites little emphasis is placed on history, especially non-US history, foreign languages, or foreign culture and neither is a particularly significant part of the required curriculum in most american public schools. Similarly, there is little real coverage of foreign news and cultures in the American mass media, other than where it directly affects US political interests or has a sufficient human interest factor, such as in the case of a natural disaster with high mortality rates. Others certainly may reasonably disagree over the extent to which these subjects should form part of the curriculum, and I do understand that in many schools it is difficult enough for struggling teachers to find the resources and time even to successfully convey the basic 3Rs. Obviously I am personally one of those who takes the opinion that more background in history and more understanding of other cultures should be taught in this country, especially where we, as a superpower, interact with the rest of the world in so many areas and so many ways. It may have been sufficient to ignore the rest of the world in the 19th century, but as multiple world wars and other conflicts and events have shown since that time, it is no longer possible to do so. To move on the world stage as an active player without an adequate understanding of the other places and peoples with which we interact is not merely arrogant, it is a recipe for disaster. More to the point vis a vis this list, such education would have been very helpful to most of us as genealogists whose ancestors were from places whose history we know little about. It was this last point that I clumsily tried to make in my comment about american education. I should not have allowed myself to express this as a matter of exasperation, and for that I apologize. Kevin BTW here are some interesting results of a survey done by National Geographic in 2002: "About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent. . . . And some results from a study in 2000 by the Center for Survey Research and Analysis, showing we don't even do very well on our own history: "More than 500 seniors at 55 of the best colleges and universities in the United States responded to the telephone questionnaire, which consisted of multiple choice questions on topics ranging from the Magna Carta to the Monroe Doctrine, from the Battle of Yorktown to the Battle of the Bulge. Sixty-five percent of the students -- from such schools as Yale, Northwestern, Smith, and Bowdoin -- failed to "pass" the test and only one student answered all 34 questions correctly. Ninety-nine percent of the respondents, however, correctly identified Beavis and Butthead!" >>> john <[email protected]> 04/11/06 6:48 AM >>> "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== The mailing list is configured to reply only to the list. If you are making a personal reply to a poster, it will be necessary to delete the list address and add the individual's address.

I would like to apologize to anyone on the list who may have been offended by my comments about american schooling. I certainly did not mean to suggest in any way that any one on the list was uneducated or unschooled, but it seems some may have taken it that way. Nor was there any intent to impugn the fine contributions of the many very dedicated teachers in our schools. My frustration was with a fact about our society and certainly not with anyone on the list! What I don't think can be undisputed, however, is that due both to budget constraints and administrative priorites little emphasis is placed on history, especially non-US history, foreign languages, or foreign culture and neither is a particularly significant part of the required curriculum in most american public schools. Similarly, there is little real coverage of foreign news and cultures in the American mass media, other than where it directly affects US political interests or has a sufficient human interest factor, such as in the case of a natural disaster with high mortality rates. Others certainly may reasonably disagree over the extent to which these subjects should form part of the curriculum, and I do understand that in many schools it is difficult enough for struggling teachers to find the resources and time even to successfully convey the basic 3Rs. Obviously I am personally one of those who takes the opinion that more background in history and more understanding of other cultures should be taught in this country, especially where we, as a superpower, interact with the rest of the world in so many areas and so many ways. It may have been sufficient to ignore the rest of the world in the 19th century, but as multiple world wars and other conflicts and events have shown since that time, it is no longer possible to do so. To move on the world stage as an active player without an adequate understanding of the other places and peoples with which we interact is not merely arrogant, it is a recipe for disaster. More to the point vis a vis this list, such education would have been very helpful to most of us as genealogists whose ancestors were from places whose history we know little about. It was this last point that I clumsily tried to make in my comment about american education. I should not have allowed myself to express this as a matter of exasperation, and for that I apologize. Kevin BTW here are some interesting results of a survey done by National Geographic in 2002: "About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent. . . . And some results from a study in 2000 by the Center for Survey Research and Analysis, showing we don't even do very well on our own history: "More than 500 seniors at 55 of the best colleges and universities in the United States responded to the telephone questionnaire, which consisted of multiple choice questions on topics ranging from the Magna Carta to the Monroe Doctrine, from the Battle of Yorktown to the Battle of the Bulge. Sixty-five percent of the students -- from such schools as Yale, Northwestern, Smith, and Bowdoin -- failed to "pass" the test and only one student answered all 34 questions correctly. Ninety-nine percent of the respondents, however, correctly identified Beavis and Butthead!" >>> john <[email protected]> 04/11/06 6:48 AM >>> "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice!

Agree also. It's the love of history that lead to my interest in genealogy. Don O -----Original Message----- From: Susan Williams [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:00 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language I know that several people have agreed with John when he criticized Kevin. The truth of the matter is that while Kevin's comments may be considered harsh, I think they are true. Our knowledge of history leaves much to be desired. I include myself in this -- and I am always trying to rectify this. It's more fun to search for ancestors ... and not so much fun to read history books. But that's what is is necessary. In order to understand your genealogy and family history better, you also need to understand world history. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language > "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and > philology"......Gee that was not very nice! > > > Kevin Kittilson wrote: > >>Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so deficient >>in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep recycling. >>This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >>complicated. >> >>The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the term >>for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech terms. The >>Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call themselves and >>their language by terms from which we clumsily derive the approximation >>"Czech". >>That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or Bohemian in >>English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and subsequently >>traditional English geographical term for what became the Czech lands. >>It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have >>nothing >>much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened to >>be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >>geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >>As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was the >>universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century and >>sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy until >>the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a >>region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >>around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >>were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. >>Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >>became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. >>This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the >>Latin name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the >>place >>name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >>That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >>lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >>picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and >>call Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >>"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >>(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. >> >>For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >>deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even though >>they would not have done so in their own language. They simply used the >>English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived from a Latin >>geographical term. >>Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >>arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >>must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term >>inappropriate. >>I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >>Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >>"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >>and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >>and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >>am I to argue with him? >> >>In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >>"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >>"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. >> >>BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >>the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >>I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that >>subject >>is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss >>in what has already gotten to be too long a message. >>______________________________ >> >> >> >>==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >>chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >>and/or lose subscription privileges. >> >> >> > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Czech Message Boards are at http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic

John is making a concession. So don't anybody 'beat me up' hahahaahah. Ok I will admit that the American system of schooling leads quite a LOT to be desired. I retract my former statement. Thank you very much. :) Y'all have a nice day Susan Williams wrote: > I know that several people have agreed with John when he criticized > Kevin. The truth of the matter is that while Kevin's comments may be > considered harsh, I think they are true. Our knowledge of history > leaves much to be desired. I include myself in this -- and I am always > trying to rectify this. It's more fun to search for ancestors ... and > not so much fun to read history books. But that's what is is > necessary. In order to understand your genealogy and family > history better, you also need to understand world history. Susan > ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language > > >> "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and >> philology"......Gee that was not very nice! >> >> >> Kevin Kittilson wrote: >> >>> Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >>> deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this >>> keep recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >>> complicated. >>> >>> The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >>> term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >>> terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >>> themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily derive >>> the approximation "Czech". >>> That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >>> Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and >>> subsequently traditional English geographical term for what became >>> the Czech lands. >>> It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have >>> nothing >>> much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they >>> happened to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it >>> was described geographically by early geographers writing in the >>> time of ancient Rome. As was the case for almost all learned >>> writing, the Latin language was the universal language of scholars >>> all over Europe up to the 17th century and sometimes even later. It >>> was the universal language of diplomacy until the close of the >>> Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a region had >>> their own name for a place in their own language, most others around >>> them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >>> were considered more both more "correct" and more universally >>> understood. >>> Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >>> became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. >>> This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English >>> the Latin name German to the people who call themselves the >>> "deutsch" and the place >>> name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as >>> Deutschland. That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the >>> Germani, who similarly lived there when the Romans described that >>> one. Interestingly, the French picked up the alternative Latin >>> name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call Germany "allemagne." >>> The germans, on the other hand, call France "Frankreich", which >>> means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe (interestingly >>> enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. >>> >>> For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >>> deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >>> though they would not have done so in their own language. They >>> simply used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, >>> derived from a Latin geographical term. >>> Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians >>> after >>> arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. >>> Thus I >>> must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term >>> inappropriate. >>> I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated >>> Czech- >>> Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >>> "Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and >>> grammars, >>> and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of >>> Wisconsin >>> and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself >>> Bohemian, who >>> am I to argue with him? >>> >>> In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to >>> use "Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly >>> never use "German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for >>> those places either. >>> >>> BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues >>> relating to >>> the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not >>> because I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but >>> because that subject >>> is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to >>> discuss in what has already gotten to be too long a message. >>> ______________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>> No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >>> chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >>> and/or lose subscription privileges. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >> Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. >> >> > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Czech Message Boards are at > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >

I know that several people have agreed with John when he criticized Kevin. The truth of the matter is that while Kevin's comments may be considered harsh, I think they are true. Our knowledge of history leaves much to be desired. I include myself in this -- and I am always trying to rectify this. It's more fun to search for ancestors ... and not so much fun to read history books. But that's what is is necessary. In order to understand your genealogy and family history better, you also need to understand world history. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language > "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and > philology"......Gee that was not very nice! > > > Kevin Kittilson wrote: > >>Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so deficient >>in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep recycling. >>This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >>complicated. >> >>The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the term >>for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech terms. The >>Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call themselves and >>their language by terms from which we clumsily derive the approximation >>"Czech". >>That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or Bohemian in >>English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and subsequently >>traditional English geographical term for what became the Czech lands. >>It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have >>nothing >>much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened to >>be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >>geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >>As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was the >>universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century and >>sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy until >>the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a >>region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >>around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >>were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. >>Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >>became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. >>This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the >>Latin name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the >>place >>name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >>That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >>lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >>picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and >>call Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >>"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >>(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. >> >>For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >>deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even though >>they would not have done so in their own language. They simply used the >>English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived from a Latin >>geographical term. >>Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >>arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >>must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term >>inappropriate. >>I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >>Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >>"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >>and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >>and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >>am I to argue with him? >> >>In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >>"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >>"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. >> >>BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >>the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >>I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that >>subject >>is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss >>in what has already gotten to be too long a message. >>______________________________ >> >> >> >>==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >>chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >>and/or lose subscription privileges. >> >> >> > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. > >

Hi everyone, I don't write very often lately due to illness, but I've been a lonnnnng time lister here. Just wanted to say that that I'm sure, after all these years, that I don't think Kevin has a mean bone in his body, and his comment surely was one of frustration. He has been the unending source of help, knowledge, and kindness, taking much of his own time to research for us in his personal library. Because of him, many of us have benefited greatly. And I agree with him about our education....I found these very subjects lacking; they simply were not "needed" even in college! So with each year, as newcomers are added to the list, Kevin has patiently made explanations, done reaearch for us, and encouraged us.....Thank you Kevin, for all you have done for us. A grateful lister, for whom you once copied much information on Belolozel, Joann ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language > "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and > philology"......Gee that was not very nice! > > > Kevin Kittilson wrote: > >>Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so deficient >>in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep recycling. >>This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >>complicated. >> >>The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the term >>for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech terms. The >>Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call themselves and >>their language by terms from which we clumsily derive the approximation >>"Czech". >>That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or Bohemian in >>English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin and subsequently >>traditional English geographical term for what became the Czech lands. >>It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have >>nothing >>much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened to >>be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >>geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >>As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was the >>universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century and >>sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy until >>the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants of a >>region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >>around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >>were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. >>Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >>became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. >>This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the >>Latin name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the >>place >>name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >>That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >>lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >>picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and >>call Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >>"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >>(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. >> >>For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >>deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even though >>they would not have done so in their own language. They simply used the >>English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived from a Latin >>geographical term. >>Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >>arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >>must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term >>inappropriate. >>I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >>Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >>"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >>and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >>and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >>am I to argue with him? >> >>In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >>"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >>"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. >> >>BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >>the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >>I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that >>subject >>is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss >>in what has already gotten to be too long a message. >>______________________________ >> >> >> >>==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >>No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >>chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >>and/or lose subscription privileges. >> >> >> > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. > > >

absolutely agree!

Agree, John. Rose john <[email protected]> 04/11/2006 07:48 AM Please respond to [email protected] To [email protected] cc Subject Re: [CZ] Re: Czech / Bohemian language "American schooling is so deficient in terms of history and philology"......Gee that was not very nice! Kevin Kittilson wrote: >Good grief! How unfortunate it is that American schooling is so >deficient in terms of history and philology that issues like this keep >recycling. This whole thing is neither mysterious nor overly >complicated. > >The term "Bohemia" as a place name, and the term "Bohemian" as the >term for a language spoken by people in "Bohemia", are not Czech >terms. The Czechs (also an English rather than a Czech term) call >themselves and their language by terms from which we clumsily >derive the approximation "Czech". > >That does not mean that it is incorrect ever to use Bohemia or >Bohemian in English. The name Bohemia is the traditional Latin >and subsequently traditional English geographical term for what >became the Czech lands. > >It derives from the name of a barbarian tribe, the Boii. They have nothing >much to do with the Czechs or anything else except that they happened >to be the tribe that lived in or near this region when it was described >geographically by early geographers writing in the time of ancient Rome. >As was the case for almost all learned writing, the Latin language was >the universal language of scholars all over Europe up to the 17th century >and sometimes even later. It was the universal language of diplomacy >until the close of the Renaissance. Accordingly, even when the inhabitants >of a region had their own name for a place in their own language, most others >around them generally continued to use the traditional Latin names, which >were considered more both more "correct" and more universally understood. > >Thus in England, the place was called Bohemia; in German countries, it >became "Boehmen", in France, "la Boheme", etc. > >This is an identical process to the one by which we give in English the Latin >name German to the people who call themselves the "deutsch" and the place >name Germany (from "Germania") to what is locally known as Deutschland. >That is derived from another barbarian tribe, the Germani, who similarly >lived there when the Romans described that one. Interestingly, the French >picked up the alternative Latin name, based on the Allemani tribe, and call >Germany "allemagne." The germans, on the other hand, call France >"Frankreich", which means "kingdom of the Franks", still another tribe >(interestingly enough, a germanic one). I could give many more examples. > >For some reason no one ever seems to object about the fact that the >deutsche Volk who settled in the US called themselves Germans, even >though they would not have done so in their own language. They simply >used the English name for their homeland, which was, in turn, derived >from a Latin geographical term. > >Similarly, many Czechs who settled here called themselves Bohemians after >arrival, as that is and was the English word for them at the time. Thus I >must respectfully disagree with those who would call that term inappropriate. >I will defer to the judgment of the many prominent, well-educated Czech- >Americans of the 19th century who started "Bohemian" cemeteries, >"Bohemian" schools, authored "Bohemian-English" dictionaries and grammars, >and so forth. For example, Karel Jonas, who became Lt. Gov. of Wisconsin >and later U.S. counsel to Prague. If he considered himself Bohemian, who >am I to argue with him? > >In any event, anyone who contends that it is inappropriate ever to use >"Bohemia" or "Bohemian" when speaking English should similarly never use >"German" or "Germany". They are not native terms for those places either. > >BTW I have deliberately avoided discussing the complex issues relating to >the German-speaking inhabitants who lived in the Czech lands. Not because >I think they are not equally entitled to consideration but because that subject >is somewhat peripheral to this one and is also too complicated to discuss in >what has already gotten to be too long a message. >______________________________ > > > >==== CZECH Mailing List ==== >No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, >chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring >and/or lose subscription privileges. > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail.