I have followed the conversations about being Bohemian/Czech with great interest. Having done genealogy for a number of years, I am somewhat familiar with that controversy , however, I still have a question which reflects on my Czech heritage. As we all know, Czechoslovakia was originally made up of the "states" of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia. It seems that most immigrants of Czech heritage living outside of Texas didn't particularly object to being called Bohemians (because their ancestors emigrated from the "state" of Bohemia. The vast majority of Czechs in Texas, however, are of Moravian heritage. In previous generations, in Texas, to call a Moravian a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight (although not all Moravians had this objection). I understand that, prior to the creation of Czechoslovakia, both, Moravians and Bohemians could rightfully be called Austrians/Austria-Hungarians. I also understand that, on ships passenger lists and on census forms the term Bohemian was often used (by officials who did not know the difference). I am wondering to what extent Moravians in Moravia objected to being called Bohemians.

>>> <[email protected]> 04/14/06 10:22 AM >>> wrote: > In previous generations, in Texas, to call a Moravian a Bohemian could easily >provoke a fight (although not all Moravians had this objection). >. . . > I am wondering to what extent Moravians in Moravia objected to being >called Bohemians. Moravia, while it became part of the Czech crownlands in the middle ages, was never part of Bohemia and had a separate administration. The german name for it was "Maehren." It was technically ruled by the King of Bohemia in his capacity of Duke of Moravia. Later ruled by the Austrian Habsburgs in the same capacity. Moravians were referred to as "maehrisch" on official Austrian documents. The term Bohemian or "boehmisch" was not used for them. So I don't think the issue would have come up, except perhaps in the border areas, as there were some border adjustments here and there when administrative boundaries were redrawn at various times. This is one place where Bohemian and Czech are not overlapping terms, Czech being broader and including the Moravians.

Also, Kevin my cousin, told me that his dad was originally named Norm, by his mom and dad, but for some reason, whoever took down the name, changed it to James instead. But his real name was supposed to be Norm, that's what everyone called him til the day he died. Joan Peterson wrote: > In the Chicago Catholic Churches I find the change to James, and other > names Americanized, appearing about 1914/15. I have found baptism > records which state Vaclav on one bapt and Wences on another. > > St Wenceslaus Church used the term "Wenceslaus" almost exclusively for > Vaclav and interchanging was a normal procedure of the scribe as many > scribes wrote in the record books through the years. > > Some surnames changed from baptism to baptism with a few letters or in > some cases where the scribe wrote the "new" name in parens above the > other--similar to the original but simplified. It is interesting. > > Joan Smart Peterson > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. > >

Ahhhhhhhh. So this is why my dad always called his grandfather, "Wenceslas" Instead of Vaclav, and that's probably what was shortened to Wencil. Thanks for the info, Joan. This may be an old email,but John never throws anything away AHHAHAHAHA HAPPY EASTER! Joan Peterson wrote: > In the Chicago Catholic Churches I find the change to James, and other > names Americanized, appearing about 1914/15. I have found baptism > records which state Vaclav on one bapt and Wences on another. > > St Wenceslaus Church used the term "Wenceslaus" almost exclusively for > Vaclav and interchanging was a normal procedure of the scribe as many > scribes wrote in the record books through the years. > > Some surnames changed from baptism to baptism with a few letters or in > some cases where the scribe wrote the "new" name in parens above the > other--similar to the original but simplified. It is interesting. > > Joan Smart Peterson > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail. > >

My father came from "Moravia" and growing up we heard all kinds of names and it really didn't hurt our feelings since we were raised in TEXAS and are Texans first. My father didn't want us children to learn the Czech language, why, I never found out other than he wanted to leave his past behind. Larry W. Krc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [CZ] Being Bohemian I have followed the conversations about being Bohemian/Czech with great interest. Having done genealogy for a number of years, I am somewhat familiar with that controversy , however, I still have a question which reflects on my Czech heritage. As we all know, Czechoslovakia was originally made up of the "states" of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia. It seems that most immigrants of Czech heritage living outside of Texas didn't particularly object to being called Bohemians (because their ancestors emigrated from the "state" of Bohemia. The vast majority of Czechs in Texas, however, are of Moravian heritage. In previous generations, in Texas, to call a Moravian a Bohemian could easily provoke a fight (although not all Moravians had this objection). I understand that, prior to the creation of Czechoslovakia, both, Moravians and Bohemians could rightfully be called Austrians/Austria-Hungarians. I also understand that, on ships passenger lists and on census forms the term Bohemian was often used (by officials who did not know the difference). I am wondering to what extent Moravians in Moravia objected to being called Bohemians. ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== Please do not repost the whole digest when replying to mail.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C65FAA.3284C980 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all you Bohemians: Here is my success story! I have recently returned from a remarkable visit to northwestern Iowa (St. Joseph) and New Ulm, MN areas. After many years of putting my family tree together, the Bohemian connection was the most difficult. Now I have completed the connection of two Prokosch lines from the New Ulm area, that I suspected had to be related. They are!! It took me to Trohatin, Schilligkau, and Muttersdorf. We walked several cemeteries, and saw many names that I thought might be related, but didn't know when I was there. Now I have them connected! Lots of data entry into my Family Tree Maker software, but it was worth the travel time, costs, visits with relatives, and non-relatives, farms, libraries (Darla, it was nice to meet with you, and a relative!), and New Ulm, such a clean town, just like the old country! If I can share any data with any of you, now that I have it the software, it will be easy to give you some names of your relatives, that I have for you. Contact me off list please. Isn't this work fun and exciting? Especially, when after years of work, you finally can put it all together, and meet many of your relatives, that you would never have known about. It makes it all worth it, many times over, and the thrill of accomplishment, outweighs anything you have to put into it. Bob, Karen, and Darla, I want to thank you all, in the early stages of my research, to point me in the right direction. Keep up your good work, in helping all of those interested in finding their ROOTS! Jack Knott Phone: 314-265-7778 Fax: 636-352-0181 [email protected] ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C65FAA.3284C980 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Jack Knott.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Jack Knott.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Knott;Jack;;L.O. FN:Jack Knott ORG:U.S. Lending TITLE:L.O. TEL;WORK;VOICE:314-265-7778 TEL;HOME;VOICE:636-946-7779 TEL;CELL;VOICE:314-265-7778 TEL;WORK;FAX:636-352-0181 TEL;HOME;FAX:636-352-0181 ADR;WORK:;314-544-1900;12430 Tesson Ferry Rd, Suite 110;Saint = Louis;MO;63128 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:314-544-1900=3D0D=3D0A12430 = Tesson Ferry Rd, Suite 110=3D0D=3D0ASaint Louis, MO 6312=3D 8 ADR;HOME:;;1806 Glenn Abbe Ct;St. Charles;MO;63303 LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:1806 Glenn Abbe Ct=3D0D=3D0ASt. = Charles, MO 63303 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[email protected] EMAIL;INTERNET:[email protected] REV:20060414T150002Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C65FAA.3284C980--

So far I've displayed 3 times: thimbles and sewing tools, Russian nesting dolls, and toy sewing machines. Each time I plan to take pictures, but each time I forget to bring the camera and then just leave it at that. I'm glad you mentioned the camera and "plan" to take pictures when I set up the other displayers. These 2 were not on the agenda until the end of the month, but the director was in need so scrambled my good intentions in her direction. She's happy and I can think about what else I can add! Joan Peterson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Williams" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: Re: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > Good luck with your display! I'm sure it will be beautiful -- and I think > you are making the right decision not to replace the worn ribbon. A new > ribbon could look pretty but it would change it. I don't collect > antiques but I believe the original makes it more valuable. But aside from > that, there is a certain beauty in the original -- a beauty in the article > that has been used and cherished. Have you considered taking pictures > and posting them later. I would be interested in seeing your collection. > Thanks. Susan>

Hello Bob -- Reading between the lines of what you say, I am interpreting it as a suggestion to enjoy researching family heritage and don't get tied up with terminology. My maternal grandparents came from Bohemia. My grandmother was born in NYC -- she used the term Bohemian and Bohunk -- as it sounds like your family did. Technically, they were wrong. But we still will remember what they said. Learning the history of the area, you will learn the correct terminolgy -- I think Kevin Kittelson has done a good job explaining it -- but we shouldn't let a difference in terms stop us from enjoying and researching. When I speak of where my family came, I usually say Bohemia, an area that is now part of the Czech Republic. And lucky you, you took the opportunity to visit your family's homeland -- I hope to do that some time too. My family was from Kutna Hora and Cirkvice, near Prague. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Waterous" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:06 AM Subject: [CZ] Being Bohemian > Fellow Subscribers, > > Now that I'm 60ish I find it interesting to see how great a difference a > few fast passing years make in a person's understanding of their heritage. > I was born in Chicago in 1944, the son of a Yankee/Irish/American father > and a Bohemian/American mother whose parents both came from Bohemia. > > My mother's family called themselves Bohemian. They said that this > foreign tongue they were speaking was a slavic language called Bohemian > or Czech. In those days they told us that Bohemia was a part of a country > called Czechoslovakia but that it had once been a part of the Austrian > Empire. > > They also said that even though some parts of the family called themselves > Austrian they were still proud of their Bohemian heritage. Above all we > were of Bohemian descent. > > I traveled to the Czech Republic with my wife and children in 2004. We > drove north from Hungary through Slovakia to Bohemia. Czechoslovakia no > longer existed because times had changed. But, Bohemia remained in place > with Prague as its centerpiece. > > We were very fortunate, with the help of the Czech list, to have > connected with cousins in Prague where we were invited guests in their > home. To facilitate communication they hired a translator who spent her > days with us as we traveled around. > > During conversations, I noticed that every time I mentioned the word > "Bohemian" or "Bohemia" she translated it to something that sounded like > "chechy". Rightly or wrongly I assumed that is where the Czech Republic > and Czechoslovakia got the name. > > Looking back to the growing up years I consider myself fortunate in having > had that direct contact with those Bohemian immigrants I called > grandparents. > > I feel happy to know beyond any doubt that whatever they may call the > nation containing Bohemia, my children and I are of Bohemian descent on my > mother's side. > > After everything I've told and showed my children I wonder what they will > say to their children about our heritage. > > My best wishes to all of you in your research. > > Bob Waterous > > About the Bohs > http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/chap2.htm > > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > No off topic posts, flames, virus warnings, prayers, jokes, > chain letters, etc. Violators will be placed on message monitoring > and/or lose subscription privileges. > >

Good luck with your display! I'm sure it will be beautiful -- and I think you are making the right decision not to replace the worn ribbon. A new ribbon could look pretty but it would change it. I don't collect antiques but I believe the original makes it more valuable. But aside from that, there is a certain beauty in the original -- a beauty in the article that has been used and cherished. Have you considered taking pictures and posting them later. I would be interested in seeing your collection. Thanks. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Peterson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:14 PM Subject: Re: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > Thank you! I'll use that term and if someone disagrees they can write it > on the pad of paper supplied for comments! The orange satin wide ribbon > is disintegrating and I had thought of replacing it, but unless I'm going > to wear it at a special festival, it's probably better left alone. At > least it is out in a display case where others can see it. I have 3 floor > displayers and 2 wall (3 shelf) displayers. Do wish I could find a Czech > toy sewing machine--maybe someday. Don't know if there was a manufacturer > there or whether they were > imported from another country. Germany had several toy sewing machine > companies early on so it's possible > either Bohemia or Czechoslovakia depending on what year discussed. > While working on one of the displayers this afternoon, a young girl became > interested, so naturally I asked her if she knew where this country > was--never heard of it, so she received a geography lesson today! > > Joan Smart Peterson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "List Administration" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 5:11 PM > Subject: Fwd: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head > Cover > > >> This is a forwarded message >> >> From: Rosemary Bodien <[email protected]> >> >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Thursday, April 13, 2006, 5:37:34 PM >> Subject: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover >> >> >> Joan, >> >> I am not an expert, but the headdress is called a cepec (the first c >> has a diacritical "u" which is more like a bird flying, over it). It >> could be a wedding headdress since it has lace, etc. >> >> The display should be great!!! >> >> Rosie in WA state >> On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Joan Peterson wrote: >> >>> >>> > > > > ==== CZECH Mailing List ==== > Czech Message Boards are at > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=board&r=rw&p=topics.ethnic > >

Fellow Subscribers, Now that I'm 60ish I find it interesting to see how great a difference a few fast passing years make in a person's understanding of their heritage. I was born in Chicago in 1944, the son of a Yankee/Irish/American father and a Bohemian/American mother whose parents both came from Bohemia. My mother's family called themselves Bohemian. They said that this foreign tongue they were speaking was a slavic language called Bohemian or Czech. In those days they told us that Bohemia was a part of a country called Czechoslovakia but that it had once been a part of the Austrian Empire. They also said that even though some parts of the family called themselves Austrian they were still proud of their Bohemian heritage. Above all we were of Bohemian descent. I traveled to the Czech Republic with my wife and children in 2004. We drove north from Hungary through Slovakia to Bohemia. Czechoslovakia no longer existed because times had changed. But, Bohemia remained in place with Prague as its centerpiece. We were very fortunate, with the help of the Czech list, to have connected with cousins in Prague where we were invited guests in their home. To facilitate communication they hired a translator who spent her days with us as we traveled around. During conversations, I noticed that every time I mentioned the word "Bohemian" or "Bohemia" she translated it to something that sounded like "chechy". Rightly or wrongly I assumed that is where the Czech Republic and Czechoslovakia got the name. Looking back to the growing up years I consider myself fortunate in having had that direct contact with those Bohemian immigrants I called grandparents. I feel happy to know beyond any doubt that whatever they may call the nation containing Bohemia, my children and I are of Bohemian descent on my mother's side. After everything I've told and showed my children I wonder what they will say to their children about our heritage. My best wishes to all of you in your research. Bob Waterous About the Bohs http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/spirit/chap2.htm

Thank you! I'll use that term and if someone disagrees they can write it on the pad of paper supplied for comments! The orange satin wide ribbon is disintegrating and I had thought of replacing it, but unless I'm going to wear it at a special festival, it's probably better left alone. At least it is out in a display case where others can see it. I have 3 floor displayers and 2 wall (3 shelf) displayers. Do wish I could find a Czech toy sewing machine--maybe someday. Don't know if there was a manufacturer there or whether they were imported from another country. Germany had several toy sewing machine companies early on so it's possible either Bohemia or Czechoslovakia depending on what year discussed. While working on one of the displayers this afternoon, a young girl became interested, so naturally I asked her if she knew where this country was--never heard of it, so she received a geography lesson today! Joan Smart Peterson ----- Original Message ----- From: "List Administration" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 5:11 PM Subject: Fwd: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > This is a forwarded message > > From: Rosemary Bodien <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, April 13, 2006, 5:37:34 PM > Subject: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > > > Joan, > > I am not an expert, but the headdress is called a cepec (the first c > has a diacritical "u" which is more like a bird flying, over it). It > could be a wedding headdress since it has lace, etc. > > The display should be great!!! > > Rosie in WA state > On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Joan Peterson wrote: > >> >>

This is a forwarded message From: Rosemary Bodien <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 13, 2006, 5:37:34 PM Subject: {not a subscriber} Re: [CZ] Fw: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover Joan, I am not an expert, but the headdress is called a cepec (the first c has a diacritical "u" which is more like a bird flying, over it). It could be a wedding headdress since it has lace, etc. The display should be great!!! Rosie in WA state On Apr 13, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Joan Peterson wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Peterson" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:54 PM > Subject: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > > >> Need some expert advice: >> >> Somewhere in these myriad stacks of books and magazines is my answer, >> however, since I'm preparing a Czech display in the public library, I >> would appreciate a jumpstart from someone as to the Czech name of >> this item: rectangular silky material, surrounded with delicate >> crocheting or lacemaking. Colorful small flowers decorate the top or >> center and satin ribbons for tying under the chin. >> I have my grandmother's from abt 1875 and would like to display it, >> but would like to have the Czech name for it. She brought it with >> her in the 1880's. >> Several years ago while attending the Gen. Conf in Lincoln, NE, the >> costumes were modeled and the correct names used for the period of >> time but I would like the correct spelling since I am committing the >> word to paper! >> >> Joan Smart Peterson >> >>

Joan, if you have no response here, I'd give http://www.ncsml.org/exhibits/current/exhibits-special.htm the museum a call. Elaine For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong. --H. L. Mencken Hello Joan On Thursday, April 13, 2006, you wrote > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joan Peterson" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:54 PM > Subject: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover >> Need some expert advice: >> >> Somewhere in these myriad stacks of books and magazines is my answer, >> however, since I'm preparing a Czech display in the public library, I >> would appreciate a jumpstart from someone as to the Czech name of this >> item: rectangular silky material, surrounded with delicate crocheting or >> lacemaking. Colorful small flowers decorate the top or center and satin >> ribbons for tying under the chin. >> I have my grandmother's from abt 1875 and would like to display it, but >> would like to have the Czech name for it. She brought it with her in the >> 1880's. >> Several years ago while attending the Gen. Conf in Lincoln, NE, the >> costumes were modeled and the correct names used for the period of time >> but I would like the correct spelling since I am committing the word to >> paper! >> >> Joan Smart Peterson >>

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Peterson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: [BOHEMIA] Re: Czech Head Cover > Need some expert advice: > > Somewhere in these myriad stacks of books and magazines is my answer, > however, since I'm preparing a Czech display in the public library, I > would appreciate a jumpstart from someone as to the Czech name of this > item: rectangular silky material, surrounded with delicate crocheting or > lacemaking. Colorful small flowers decorate the top or center and satin > ribbons for tying under the chin. > I have my grandmother's from abt 1875 and would like to display it, but > would like to have the Czech name for it. She brought it with her in the > 1880's. > Several years ago while attending the Gen. Conf in Lincoln, NE, the > costumes were modeled and the correct names used for the period of time > but I would like the correct spelling since I am committing the word to > paper! > > Joan Smart Peterson > > > ==== BOHEMIA Mailing List ==== > Note: automatic replies to Bohemia-L and Bohemia-D posts go directly to > the mailing list, not to the individual who sent the post. > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/lRC.2ACE/3499.3 Message Board Post: birth date for John (Johann) is listed wrong. The year should be 1808

After YEARS of researching my Chicago Czech ancestrors, I have just begun researching my husband's lineage. His ancestors, who appear to be Moravian, settled in a small borough in Pennsylvania.

You just did, Libby. Your message was distributed to all subscribers (including you) of the mailing list. Welcome. Elaine > Hi Can anyone tell me how I would post a > message to this board??I am not > great with the computer.Thank You Libby

Hi, on my grandfathers papers he states he left bremen on April 27th and arrived here in usa on may 7th, so it took 10 days from Bremen to the USA.This is all so interesting. I too hated history in school,and look at me now. I am the family historian.LOL..Libby

Hi Can anyone tell me how I would post a message to this board??I am not great with the computer.Thank You Libby

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/lRC.2ACE/3499.2 Message Board Post: I found more interesting websites for you: http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/schwartz.htm http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/schzcorp.htm There is also an interesting website which could possibly be very helpful. It seems to be a Schwarzenberg family tree (even with pictures of people from 17. century): http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00009917&tree=LEO Wikipedia text concerning the Schwarzenberg family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Schwarzenberg