In a message dated 06/03/2001 7:51:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, allenk@pacbell.net writes: > I am an old hand at genealogy starting in the late '60s, back when it > was pencil and paper, or occasionally, typewriter. There were "name > collectors", but most of us worked hard doing research in original > records, after we had done the literary survey, so we didn't reinvewnt > the wheel. > > Could I please present another point of view? Many of us would enjoy having the resources to do what the writer of this note has been able to do: tramping through cemeteries in the rain; sitting in the library or other archives for hours on end; purchasing books and subscriptions by the carload. But there are plenty of good reasons for not doing all those things. For some people, it's the lack of financial resources. Job insecurity, heavy financial responsibilities, and fixed or declining income are a few of the situations that can severely limit a person's available money. And while that "$5 Rand-McNally atlas" probably won't break most of us, it's no help for past geography. For example, you could tear a New Jersey map apart looking for German Valley, where some of my relatives lived, but you'll never find it. During World War I the name was changed to Long Valley, and if someone isn't aware of that change, he'll be "up a creek" looking for his family. Along with finances is the resource of time. It's nice to be able to sit down in your library's genealogy section for an entire day and look for what you need, but that amount of time just might not be available to you. Maybe you have a job that keeps you occupied when the library is open. Maybe you have the responsibility of caring for small children, elderly parents, or handicapped relatives -- or maybe all three! Maybe a personal disability means that your normal activities take twice as long as they would for a "normal" person. And then there's distance. Many of us live a thousand or more miles from where our families came from, and time and finances keep us from traveling that distance to check out things "on scene." While the person who wrote the original letter here says she isn't referring to any specific person, she quoted my note on the business of "not having access" to something. Lack of access can be for many different reasons. . .and in my case it's complicated. Thirty years ago my husband, not having a crystal ball, picked an occupation that was made obsolete during the high-tech revolution of the 90s. As a result, he's been either out of work or forced into low-paying or temporary positions for most of the last five years. I've had to work a lot more that I would have liked to in order to keep our retirement savings (which we'll need in a few years) from melting away entirely. On top of that, a family emergency two years ago swallowed up a large percentage of the money we'd saved. And to put the cap on it, a hereditary neurological disorder that I managed to acquire with my genetic code means that my normal housework takes me twice as long as it would without it. A few hours of some "nonessential" activity leaves me wondering which necessary job doesn't get done. Shopping? Cleaning? Laundry? Thanks to my husband's job instability, we haven't had a vacation in nearly five years, so the few free weekends we get need to be used for "mini-vacations" camping and hiking in the mountains rather than spending the day in the library. It's all a matter of priorities, and I consider spending time with my living family and providing for them (and making sure that we're not a burden to our kids in our rapidly-arriving old age) a greater priority than getting the most detailed and accurate numbers possible on my long-dead relatives. Believe it or not, I'm not into genealogy. What I'm interested in is family history. I want to leave a legacy for our kids and grandkids: where did they come from? How did their forebears get here -- and why? What suffering did they go through in order to make this country what it is? How did they fit into the scheme of history (the Revolution; the Great Migration; the Thirty Years War; the Irish Potato Famine; Bannockburn; the Boyne)? When did they leave the Church of Rome. . .during the Protestant Reformation, or later? That's my real goal in all this, not agonizing over whether a date I have recorded is a birth date or in fact a baptism date. A parallel from a different discipline: when my husband and I are camping and hiking, I like to record what we've seen and done on film. I've gotten some strikingly beautiful photographs, including a few that several years ago made all but the final cut in a national travel magazine's annual photo contest (out of nearly 20,000 entries). I use them on calendars, family newsletters, and greeting cards; and I've even managed to sell a few. But because I use print film rather than slide film and because I don't carry a tripod large and heavy enough to kill a grizzly bear or lenses that look like small cannons, some purists say that I'm not "really" an outdoor photographer. . .I'm just a "dabbler." I don't have the money to purchase that expensive equipment, nor would I if I did, since it's heavy and detracts from the fun of hiking in the outdoors. But what I do suits my purpose just fine, and it's as valid as what those other people are doing. For most of my family history, I've been forced by the lack of the resources I mentioned earlier to depend on the research of others for what I've learned. I've tried to "pay it forward" by passing on to others what I've been able to learn and hence return something of what I've gained. Fortunately many people have been very helpful: photocopying TAG or other articles and mailing them to me (and usually refusing the payment I've offered); offering to do lookups for me at Salt Lake City or at local libraries; sending me GEDCOMs of what they'd been able to learn; politely (and I emphasize the word "politely") correcting (rather than challenging) my data when I'd been given some incorrect information. Unfortunately there have been a few of the other kind of people, who seemed to feel that they'd worked hard and spent loads of cash for their data and that I should be obligated to do the same. But those people have been few and far between. And over the past few years I've met all sorts of wonderful people online whom I'm proud to call my friends. . .and in some cases, my family. I've found two long-lost close cousins through one of those "darnable CD systems" and several more on RootsWeb lists. I think that we need to be careful not to restrict family research to being a luxury item for those with lots of money and time, like yacht racing and polo. After all, this is history we're dealing with, and we shouldn't minimize the interest and efforts of folks who are doing the best they can with the little they have to provide a history for those who come after. We can end up discouraging people not only by withholding information but also by belittling them as "dabblers" or "name collectors" -- two terms that I will admit to hating royally. Most of us aren't just trying to collect names in order to make a big, impressive list; we're trying to put "flesh" on those names by learning something about them. Every time I read the story of the Pilgrims at Thanksgiving, I end up choking up; two of my own forebears died in the General Sickness that first year, and one of my husband's helped to contribute to the lean time they all had the second year. The Irish potato famine hits home; my Irish great-grandmother almost certainly came over on that account. Stories of Indian massacres in the period prior to the French and Indian War remind me of those of my husband's family who were killed that way and of the one who was carried off to St. Francis by Abenaki Indians. . .and of the woman who died only weeks after her husband was killed by Indians at Deerfield, Massachusetts -- probably of depression. This is all information that I picked up thanks to the generosity of others who willingly shared what they'd learned with me and didn't condemn me as either a "dabbler" or a "name collector." I've had my "soap box" time now -- thanx for your patience. . . Doris in Colorado (Up2Nutrix@aol.com) "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -- Jim Elliot, missionary and martyr

Funny thing - I agree with almost everybody who has addressed this issue, but then, I'm kind of a "name collector" too. When I get side-tracked by a family that interests me, I add them to my database. No apologies, it's just what I do. One thing I do feel strongly about is sharing information and including the sources. You then, can be the judge of the validity of the data. I just love those individuals who include their sources - good or not so good! Charlotte

I was hoping that this conversation would be more or less private. But such is not the case. Feel free to use the delete key. Comments interspersed Up2Nutrix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/03/2001 7:51:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > allenk@pacbell.net writes: > > > I am an old hand at genealogy starting in the late '60s, back when it > > was pencil and paper, or occasionally, typewriter. There were "name > > collectors", but most of us worked hard doing research in original > > records, after we had done the literary survey, so we didn't reinvewnt > > the wheel. > > > > > > Could I please present another point of view? Many of us would enjoy having > the resources to do what the writer of this note has been able to do: > tramping through cemeteries in the rain; sitting in the library or other > archives for hours on end; purchasing books and subscriptions by the carload. > But there are plenty of good reasons for not doing all those things. Some of these resources are not that far away, if you make the effort. I am not rich. I have achieved what I have because I was creative in making the most of what I had a hand. I never mentioned tramping through cemeteries in the rain. I have done so, but only because something came up that made it possible. I budgeted my time so I could sit in a library. I raised three of four sons and had a mother with Alzheimer's. At one time, I had the care of husband, three sons during the week, a dtr.-in-law, and a grandson, and said mother. No one helped with the chores or gave me money to defray the expenses. They werem't even tax deductible. When my children were much younger, I juggled housework, a college career, and genealogy and rarely, had a babysitter other than my husband. Usually I managed while the kids were in school or late at night. It is only recently that I have had spare money to spend on books for myself or subscriptions. For years I didn't even have a computer. And when I did get one it was inadequate for the 'Net connections. I budgeted money so I could go to libraries. I even hand copied materials because I couldn't afford to photocopy. Because I seemed to have an aptitude for it, I became an Accredited Genealogist, so I could earn money to defray my personal expenses. I live in California, one of the most expensive states in which to live. I have put my boys through college and have supported my mother. My husband has been unemployed. We have made expensive moves in his career. So what, this is life. Life is a four letter word and it does happen. You make the best danged lemonade you can. I am neither bragging or complaining. Just stating facts. > > > For some people, it's the lack of financial resources. Job insecurity, heavy > financial responsibilities, and fixed or declining income are a few of the > situations that can severely limit a person's available money. And while that > "$5 Rand-McNally atlas" probably won't break most of us, it's no help for > past geography. For example, you could tear a New Jersey map apart looking > for German Valley, where some of my relatives lived, but you'll never find > it. During World War I the name was changed to Long Valley, and if someone > isn't aware of that change, he'll be "up a creek" looking for his family. Again, that was not I. As to the factors you mention, been there, done that. > > > Along with finances is the resource of time. It's nice to be able to sit down > in your library's genealogy section for an entire day and look for what you > need, but that amount of time just might not be available to you. Maybe you > have a job that keeps you occupied when the library is open. Maybe you have > the responsibility of caring for small children, elderly parents, or > handicapped relatives -- or maybe all three! Maybe a personal disability > means that your normal activities take twice as long as they would for a > "normal" person. I have worked full time. I have raised children and taken care of an aging parent. I have pursued a college education. One must learn to cram as much in a day as one can and figure where a spare day can come. Sometimes you trade for babysitting or whatever. Libraries and FHCs usually have evening hours and weekend hours. It just all depends on your commitment to achievement. I also don't have a car. To go anywhere, I must get up at 4 am, travel 65 miles to San Jose (1.5 hours in good traffic. Sometimes more than 2 hours to get home), sit around until things open, then drive 15-65 miles to go wherever I need to go. Then I do what I have to do and reverse the process. I am disabled. I suffer from a heart damaged by rtheumatic fever. I have asthma which puts me at risk with every breath I take and which keeps me perpetually tired. Sometimes I have to do my paperwork in bed and have my husband microwave dinner after an attack. I also have problems with my neck and shoulders which makes it very difficult for me to write or type for an extended period of time. I also makes sleeping difficult. Cranking a film reader can be exrtremely uncomfortable. We have had quadraplegics come and use our FHC facilities. They need help cranking microfilm, but notes are recorded with a voice activated recorder. We have two ladies on staff who are legally blind. One suffers fron diabetic retinopathy. Until strokes disabled her totally, she used extreme magnification and turned her head to focus where she still had vision. The other uses extreme magnification, but doesn't need to contort herself to read. The one lady is now retired, but the other still works and is very productive, in spite of having open heart surgery to replace a mitral valve that blew after she had severe allergic reactions to chemicals used in cleaning the rugs at the FHC. > > > And then there's distance. Many of us live a thousand or more miles from > where our families came from, and time and finances keep us from traveling > that distance to check out things "on scene." I live three thousand miles + from New England and New York and more than 6000 miles from the British Isles and Germany. I have extremely successfull done research for myself, my husband, and for clients at long distance. Original records are frequently available through the FHC system, libraries, correspondence, paying a researcher, . There are many ways which can be arranged to meet your circumstances. > > > While the person who wrote the original letter here says she isn't referring > to any specific person, she quoted my note on the business of "not having > access" to something. I wasn't referring to you or to any one in particular. Are you the only person who has ever said, but I don't have access? I don't think so! > Lack of access can be for many different reasons. . > .and in my case it's complicated. Thirty years ago my husband, not having a > crystal ball, picked an occupation that was made obsolete during the > high-tech revolution of the 90s. As a result, he's been either out of work or > forced into low-paying or temporary positions for most of the last five > years. I've had to work a lot more that I would have liked to in order to > keep our retirement savings (which we'll need in a few years) from melting > away entirely. On top of that, a family emergency two years ago swallowed up > a large percentage of the money we'd saved. And to put the cap on it, a > hereditary neurological disorder that I managed to acquire with my genetic > code means that my normal housework takes me twice as long as it would > without it. A few hours of some "nonessential" activity leaves me wondering > which necessary job doesn't get done. Shopping? Cleaning? Laundry? Thanks to > my husband's job instability, we haven't had a vacation in nearly five years, I could put my circumstances up against yours, but I won't. We had to tap our retirement resources rather heavily to help one son. It was crippling, but we will survive. For many years, the only "vacations" were weekenders within driving distance. Perhaps, you could draft your husband into helping you get some time for yourself. Or you could trade someone for help. Frequently, it is only as hopeless as you choose to make it. I know that sounds unsympathetic, but I have been in similar positions where I had to choose what I did and think creatively about my circumstances or do without, without complaining [That's hard :-)]. My husband leaves for work at 4 am and returns home between 5 and 8, depending on whether he is teaching or not or if any of his equipment needs fixing. So weekends are for house work, companionship and camping, sometimes in the backyard :-) and long naps, because we are both exhausted from the week. He also travels in his job. This frequently costs us money. > > so the few free weekends we get need to be used for "mini-vacations" camping > and hiking in the mountains rather than spending the day in the library. It's > all a matter of priorities, and I consider spending time with my living > family and providing for them (and making sure that we're not a burden to our > kids in our rapidly-arriving old age) a greater priority than getting the > most detailed and accurate numbers possible on my long-dead relatives. I have done so and still managed to find time to search for my dead progenitors. I have done exactly what you are doing and have the same concerns as you have. The difference is that I have taken opportunities and made the best lemonade I could. The Internet is a useful tool, but it is a tool that can be misused and abused. And it is only one of many tools that you should be using > > > Believe it or not, I'm not into genealogy. What I'm interested in is family > history. I want to leave a legacy for our kids and grandkids: where did they > come from? How did their forebears get here -- and why? What suffering did > they go through in order to make this country what it is? How did they fit > into the scheme of history (the Revolution; the Great Migration; the Thirty > Years War; the Irish Potato Famine; Bannockburn; the Boyne)? When did they > leave the Church of Rome. . .during the Protestant Reformation, or later? > That's my real goal in all this, not agonizing over whether a date I have > recorded is a birth date or in fact a baptism date. But what is a legacy that is incorrect? It is no better than a lie. If you cannot corroborate stories, they are nothing but hearsay. And if you don't care about dates, then please don't post them and lead people down the primrose path. Some people do care and that is why they are asking for help. > > > A parallel from a different discipline: when my husband and I are camping and > hiking, I like to record what we've seen and done on film. I've gotten some > strikingly beautiful photographs, including a few that several years ago made > all but the final cut in a national travel magazine's annual photo contest > (out of nearly 20,000 entries). I use them on calendars, family newsletters, > and greeting cards; and I've even managed to sell a few. But because I use > print film rather than slide film and because I don't carry a tripod large > and heavy enough to kill a grizzly bear or lenses that look like small > cannons, some purists say that I'm not "really" an outdoor photographer. . > .I'm just a "dabbler." I don't have the money to purchase that expensive > equipment, nor would I if I did, since it's heavy and detracts from the fun > of hiking in the outdoors. But what I do suits my purpose just fine, and it's > as valid as what those other people are doing. But genealogy is different from photography and many other pastimes in that dabblers can cause real harm to serious or really interested people. You don't care about dates, but you transmit them. This is a downside to the Internet. It is becoming easier and faster to spread the proliferation of junk genealogy. You find some junk piece of information and you spread it on. > > > For most of my family history, I've been forced by the lack of the resources > I mentioned earlier to depend on the research of others for what I've > learned. I've tried to "pay it forward" by passing on to others what I've > been able to learn and hence return something of what I've gained. But that is only to the good if it is accurate. As you have learned and are learning, the research of others is only as good as the ability, knowledge, sources, and commitment of that researcher. > > Fortunately many people have been very helpful: photocopying TAG or other > articles and mailing them to me (and usually refusing the payment I've > offered); offering to do lookups for me at Salt Lake City or at local > libraries; sending me GEDCOMs of what they'd been able to learn; politely > (and I emphasize the word "politely") correcting (rather than challenging) my > data when I'd been given some incorrect information. Unfortunately there have > been a few of the other kind of people, who seemed to feel that they'd worked > hard and spent loads of cash for their data and that I should be obligated to > do the same. But those people have been few and far between. And over the > past few years I've met all sorts of wonderful people online whom I'm proud > to call my friends. . .and in some cases, my family. I've found two long-lost > close cousins through one of those "darnable CD systems" and several more on > RootsWeb lists. And how much junk have you picked up that you are now passing on to others. I spend more hours than I should helping people, both on-line and in person at the San Jose FHC. I have the thank you notes to prove it. But I have also learned that people who are wedded to their information can be really hostile when they are told that they have wrong information. I didn't challenge you. I asked you questions. If that is challenging then I will continue to do so without apology. I repeat, the Internet is a MIXED blessing. As to those CDs, some of it is an infringement of copyright, as people have submitted material which belonged to others. But that is another issue. If AOL doesn't accept long transmissions, then you might consider breaking it into 2 or three transmissions so that you can have your citations. > > > I think that we need to be careful not to restrict family research to being a > luxury item for those with lots of money and time, like yacht racing and > polo. It is not a luxery pastime, but it can be expensive to do properly. You just need to order priorities to do so. Your priorities are not genealogy. So when you pass your family history along to your children, please do inform them that there is a strong possibility of error an not to pass it on to others and thereby corrupt others' genealogies. > After all, this is history we're dealing with, and we shouldn't > minimize the interest and efforts of folks who are doing the best they can > with the little they have to provide a history for those who come after. Write the stories as you have them and forget the accurate genealogy parts. My grandchildren appreciate the stories more than the dates, the appreciation will come as they grow up and can match dates with the history they are learning in school. > We > can end up discouraging people not only by withholding information but also > by belittling them as "dabblers" or "name collectors" -- two terms that I > will admit to hating royally. Most of us aren't just trying to collect names > in order to make a big, impressive list; we're trying to put "flesh" on those > names by learning something about them. Their dates and histories are part of them, for better or worse. My husband is ancestrally deprived. His father's side is Scots-Irish or Ulster Irish. His mother's side is German Mennonites who passed through Russia before coming to the US. We work on them as we can afford resources because the research can be difficult, time consuming, and expensive. But we have plenty of stories and accurate information, as far as it goes. > snipped. So, at this point, we just need to agree to disagree because we will probably never see things the same way . But be sure to cite your sources when you submit a pedigree line :-) And I will not hesitate to tell you when you are wrong. Or right either! Kay Allen AG > > > I've had my "soap box" time now -- thanx for your patience. . . > > Doris in Colorado (Up2Nutrix@aol.com) > "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -- > Jim Elliot, missionary and martyr > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

I was hoping that this conversation would be more or less private. But such is not the case. Feel free to use the delete key. Comments interspersed Up2Nutrix@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 06/03/2001 7:51:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > allenk@pacbell.net writes: > > > I am an old hand at genealogy starting in the late '60s, back when it > > was pencil and paper, or occasionally, typewriter. There were "name > > collectors", but most of us worked hard doing research in original > > records, after we had done the literary survey, so we didn't reinvewnt > > the wheel. > > > > > > Could I please present another point of view? Many of us would enjoy having > the resources to do what the writer of this note has been able to do: > tramping through cemeteries in the rain; sitting in the library or other > archives for hours on end; purchasing books and subscriptions by the carload. > But there are plenty of good reasons for not doing all those things. Some of these resources are not that far away, if you make the effort. I am not rich. I have achieved what I have because I was creative in making the most of what I had a hand. I never mentioned tramping through cemeteries in the rain. I have done so, but only because something came up that made it possible. I budgeted my time so I could sit in a library. I raised three of four sons and had a mother with Alzheimer's. At one time, I had the care of husband, three sons during the week, a dtr.-in-law, and a grandson, and said mother. No one helped with the chores or gave me money to defray the expenses. They werem't even tax deductible. When my children were much younger, I juggled housework, a college career, and genealogy and rarely, had a babysitter other than my husband. Usually I managed while the kids were in school or late at night. It is only recently that I have had spare money to spend on books for myself or subscriptions. For years I didn't even have a computer. And when I did get one it was inadequate for the 'Net connections. I budgeted money so I could go to libraries. I even hand copied materials because I couldn't afford to photocopy. Because I seemed to have an aptitude for it, I became an Accredited Genealogist, so I could earn money to defray my personal expenses. I live in California, one of the most expensive states in which to live. I have put my boys through college and have supported my mother. My husband has been unemployed. We have made expensive moves in his career. So what, this is life. Life is a four letter word and it does happen. You make the best danged lemonade you can. I am neither bragging or complaining. Just stating facts. > > > For some people, it's the lack of financial resources. Job insecurity, heavy > financial responsibilities, and fixed or declining income are a few of the > situations that can severely limit a person's available money. And while that > "$5 Rand-McNally atlas" probably won't break most of us, it's no help for > past geography. For example, you could tear a New Jersey map apart looking > for German Valley, where some of my relatives lived, but you'll never find > it. During World War I the name was changed to Long Valley, and if someone > isn't aware of that change, he'll be "up a creek" looking for his family. Again, that was not I. As to the factors you mention, been there, done that. > > > Along with finances is the resource of time. It's nice to be able to sit down > in your library's genealogy section for an entire day and look for what you > need, but that amount of time just might not be available to you. Maybe you > have a job that keeps you occupied when the library is open. Maybe you have > the responsibility of caring for small children, elderly parents, or > handicapped relatives -- or maybe all three! Maybe a personal disability > means that your normal activities take twice as long as they would for a > "normal" person. I have worked full time. I have raised children and taken care of an aging parent. I have pursued a college education. One must learn to cram as much in a day as one can and figure where a spare day can come. Sometimes you trade for babysitting or whatever. Libraries and FHCs usually have evening hours and weekend hours. It just all depends on your commitment to achievement. I also don't have a car. To go anywhere, I must get up at 4 am, travel 65 miles to San Jose (1.5 hours in good traffic. Sometimes more than 2 hours to get home), sit around until things open, then drive 15-65 miles to go wherever I need to go. Then I do what I have to do and reverse the process. I am disabled. I suffer from a heart damaged by rtheumatic fever. I have asthma which puts me at risk with every breath I take and which keeps me perpetually tired. Sometimes I have to do my paperwork in bed and have my husband microwave dinner after an attack. I also have problems with my neck and shoulders which makes it very difficult for me to write or type for an extended period of time. I also makes sleeping difficult. Cranking a film reader can be exrtremely uncomfortable. We have had quadraplegics come and use our FHC facilities. They need help cranking microfilm, but notes are recorded with a voice activated recorder. We have two ladies on staff who are legally blind. One suffers fron diabetic retinopathy. Until strokes disabled her totally, she used extreme magnification and turned her head to focus where she still had vision. The other uses extreme magnification, but doesn't need to contort herself to read. The one lady is now retired, but the other still works and is very productive, in spite of having open heart surgery to replace a mitral valve that blew after she had severe allergic reactions to chemicals used in cleaning the rugs at the FHC. > > > And then there's distance. Many of us live a thousand or more miles from > where our families came from, and time and finances keep us from traveling > that distance to check out things "on scene." I live three thousand miles + from New England and New York and more than 6000 miles from the British Isles and Germany. I have extremely successfull done research for myself, my husband, and for clients at long distance. Original records are frequently available through the FHC system, libraries, correspondence, paying a researcher, . There are many ways which can be arranged to meet your circumstances. > > > While the person who wrote the original letter here says she isn't referring > to any specific person, she quoted my note on the business of "not having > access" to something. I wasn't referring to you or to any one in particular. Are you the only person who has ever said, but I don't have access? I don't think so! > Lack of access can be for many different reasons. . > .and in my case it's complicated. Thirty years ago my husband, not having a > crystal ball, picked an occupation that was made obsolete during the > high-tech revolution of the 90s. As a result, he's been either out of work or > forced into low-paying or temporary positions for most of the last five > years. I've had to work a lot more that I would have liked to in order to > keep our retirement savings (which we'll need in a few years) from melting > away entirely. On top of that, a family emergency two years ago swallowed up > a large percentage of the money we'd saved. And to put the cap on it, a > hereditary neurological disorder that I managed to acquire with my genetic > code means that my normal housework takes me twice as long as it would > without it. A few hours of some "nonessential" activity leaves me wondering > which necessary job doesn't get done. Shopping? Cleaning? Laundry? Thanks to > my husband's job instability, we haven't had a vacation in nearly five years, I could put my circumstances up against yours, but I won't. We had to tap our retirement resources rather heavily to help one son. It was crippling, but we will survive. For many years, the only "vacations" were weekenders within driving distance. Perhaps, you could draft your husband into helping you get some time for yourself. Or you could trade someone for help. Frequently, it is only as hopeless as you choose to make it. I know that sounds unsympathetic, but I have been in similar positions where I had to choose what I did and think creatively about my circumstances or do without, without complaining [That's hard :-)]. My husband leaves for work at 4 am and returns home between 5 and 8, depending on whether he is teaching or not or if any of his equipment needs fixing. So weekends are for house work, companionship and camping, sometimes in the backyard :-) and long naps, because we are both exhausted from the week. He also travels in his job. This frequently costs us money. > > so the few free weekends we get need to be used for "mini-vacations" camping > and hiking in the mountains rather than spending the day in the library. It's > all a matter of priorities, and I consider spending time with my living > family and providing for them (and making sure that we're not a burden to our > kids in our rapidly-arriving old age) a greater priority than getting the > most detailed and accurate numbers possible on my long-dead relatives. I have done so and still managed to find time to search for my dead progenitors. I have done exactly what you are doing and have the same concerns as you have. The difference is that I have taken opportunities and made the best lemonade I could. The Internet is a useful tool, but it is a tool that can be misused and abused. And it is only one of many tools that you should be using > > > Believe it or not, I'm not into genealogy. What I'm interested in is family > history. I want to leave a legacy for our kids and grandkids: where did they > come from? How did their forebears get here -- and why? What suffering did > they go through in order to make this country what it is? How did they fit > into the scheme of history (the Revolution; the Great Migration; the Thirty > Years War; the Irish Potato Famine; Bannockburn; the Boyne)? When did they > leave the Church of Rome. . .during the Protestant Reformation, or later? > That's my real goal in all this, not agonizing over whether a date I have > recorded is a birth date or in fact a baptism date. But what is a legacy that is incorrect? It is no better than a lie. If you cannot corroborate stories, they are nothing but hearsay. And if you don't care about dates, then please don't post them and lead people down the primrose path. Some people do care and that is why they are asking for help. > > > A parallel from a different discipline: when my husband and I are camping and > hiking, I like to record what we've seen and done on film. I've gotten some > strikingly beautiful photographs, including a few that several years ago made > all but the final cut in a national travel magazine's annual photo contest > (out of nearly 20,000 entries). I use them on calendars, family newsletters, > and greeting cards; and I've even managed to sell a few. But because I use > print film rather than slide film and because I don't carry a tripod large > and heavy enough to kill a grizzly bear or lenses that look like small > cannons, some purists say that I'm not "really" an outdoor photographer. . > .I'm just a "dabbler." I don't have the money to purchase that expensive > equipment, nor would I if I did, since it's heavy and detracts from the fun > of hiking in the outdoors. But what I do suits my purpose just fine, and it's > as valid as what those other people are doing. But genealogy is different from photography and many other pastimes in that dabblers can cause real harm to serious or really interested people. You don't care about dates, but you transmit them. This is a downside to the Internet. It is becoming easier and faster to spread the proliferation of junk genealogy. You find some junk piece of information and you spread it on. > > > For most of my family history, I've been forced by the lack of the resources > I mentioned earlier to depend on the research of others for what I've > learned. I've tried to "pay it forward" by passing on to others what I've > been able to learn and hence return something of what I've gained. But that is only to the good if it is accurate. As you have learned and are learning, the research of others is only as good as the ability, knowledge, sources, and commitment of that researcher. > > Fortunately many people have been very helpful: photocopying TAG or other > articles and mailing them to me (and usually refusing the payment I've > offered); offering to do lookups for me at Salt Lake City or at local > libraries; sending me GEDCOMs of what they'd been able to learn; politely > (and I emphasize the word "politely") correcting (rather than challenging) my > data when I'd been given some incorrect information. Unfortunately there have > been a few of the other kind of people, who seemed to feel that they'd worked > hard and spent loads of cash for their data and that I should be obligated to > do the same. But those people have been few and far between. And over the > past few years I've met all sorts of wonderful people online whom I'm proud > to call my friends. . .and in some cases, my family. I've found two long-lost > close cousins through one of those "darnable CD systems" and several more on > RootsWeb lists. And how much junk have you picked up that you are now passing on to others. I spend more hours than I should helping people, both on-line and in person at the San Jose FHC. I have the thank you notes to prove it. But I have also learned that people who are wedded to their information can be really hostile when they are told that they have wrong information. I didn't challenge you. I asked you questions. If that is challenging then I will continue to do so without apology. I repeat, the Internet is a MIXED blessing. As to those CDs, some of it is an infringement of copyright, as people have submitted material which belonged to others. But that is another issue. If AOL doesn't accept long transmissions, then you might consider breaking it into 2 or three transmissions so that you can have your citations. > > > I think that we need to be careful not to restrict family research to being a > luxury item for those with lots of money and time, like yacht racing and > polo. It is not a luxery pastime, but it can be expensive to do properly. You just need to order priorities to do so. Your priorities are not genealogy. So when you pass your family history along to your children, please do inform them that there is a strong possibility of error an not to pass it on to others and thereby corrupt others' genealogies. > After all, this is history we're dealing with, and we shouldn't > minimize the interest and efforts of folks who are doing the best they can > with the little they have to provide a history for those who come after. Write the stories as you have them and forget the accurate genealogy parts. My grandchildren appreciate the stories more than the dates, the appreciation will come as they grow up and can match dates with the history they are learning in school. > We > can end up discouraging people not only by withholding information but also > by belittling them as "dabblers" or "name collectors" -- two terms that I > will admit to hating royally. Most of us aren't just trying to collect names > in order to make a big, impressive list; we're trying to put "flesh" on those > names by learning something about them. Their dates and histories are part of them, for better or worse. My husband is ancestrally deprived. His father's side is Scots-Irish or Ulster Irish. His mother's side is German Mennonites who passed through Russia before coming to the US. We work on them as we can afford resources because the research can be difficult, time consuming, and expensive. But we have plenty of stories and accurate information, as far as it goes. > snipped. So, at this point, we just need to agree to disagree because we will probably never see things the same way . But be sure to cite your sources when you submit a pedigree line :-) And I will not hesitate to tell you when you are wrong. Or right either! Kay Allen AG > > > I've had my "soap box" time now -- thanx for your patience. . . > > Doris in Colorado (Up2Nutrix@aol.com) > "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -- > Jim Elliot, missionary and martyr > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog