"Birkholz, James" wrote: > > Thanks for the additional info. > > I wasn't trying to group them, I'm just trying to get the terminology > correct. I could have made a larger list by expanding the circle, but didn't > want to. > I included Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and Italians since they often come up > in discussion. > > James This is not a criticism but a description of some of today's political realities . You can't separate European history from genealogical research. Austria-Hungary, one of the largest countries of Europe in the 19th century, was split into many countries (Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Soviet Union, Poland, Italy etc) after World War I peace treaty (1920) Austria had stretched from Austria to Montenegro (Crna Gora) in the Balkans, plus part of Poland and part of the Ukraine. "Over 51 million people lived in the 675,000 square kilometers of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The two largest ethnic groups were Germans (10 million) and Hungarians (9 million). There were also Poles, Croats, Bosnians, Serbians, Italians, Czechs, Ruthenes, Slovenes, Slovaks and Romanians. Overall, fifteen different languages were spoken in the Austro-Hungarian empire." Political liasons between the succcessor states has not always been friendly, even nowadays. When talking about people of Hungarian nationality it means 50 % of Hungarians became citizens of countries other than Hungary (Romania, Slovakia, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Austria) There was no country called Czechoslovakia until 1920. The Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes was established on Dec. 1, 1918 and was renamed Yugoslavia on Oct. 4, 1929. The six republics that formed the former Yugoslavia were : Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, and Serbia. Sometimes in pre-WWI ship manifests the terms Slovenian, Slovakian, and Slavonian were confused. Even today, if you write to Slovenija and don't use Slovenia, the letter gets mailed to Slovakia. If you write to Slovensko (Slovakia) the letter is probably sent to Slovenia. U.S. Postal Service only recognizes these countries under "Slovenia" and "Slovak Republic". A Slovenian recently wrote a letter to Slovenia and it ended up in Sierra Leone (Africa, where a civil war is being waged) The letter sat there was a month, before being forwarded to Bratislava, Slovakia, from where is was finally forwarded to the correct address in Ljubljana, Slovenia a month later. A Slovenian had attempted to enter Slovakia on a Slovenian passport and was denied entry. Border guard had never seen a Slovene passport and was convinced it was a forgered Slovakia passport. After conversation with customs supervisor Slovenian was able to convince them that it was a legitimate passport. > On your previous postings, what do "(Sl)" and "(Sk)" refer to? > I'm guessing "Slovene" and "Slovak. > "Slavonians" from "Slavonia" (Slavonija) speak "Slavonian". Slavonia was a region as in Croatia-Slavonia and ruled by the Kingdom of Hungary and not a country. > Do Slavonians speak anything other than Croatian or Serbian? > In fact, let's cover the bases...please correct and fill in the missing > pieces... > "Croats" from "Croatia" (Hrvatska) speak "Croatian". > "Slovenes" from "Slovenia" (Slovenija) speak "Slovenian". How are you ? English Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman) > "Serbs" from "Serbia" (Srbija) speak "Serbian". * K A K C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian/Macedonian (Cyrillic) (k ah k s t eh) > "Bosniaks" from "Bosnia" (Bosna) speak "Bosnian". > "Czechs" from "Czech Republic" (C^eská Republika) speak "Czech". Jak se máte ? Czech > "Slovaks" from "Slovakia" (Slovensko) speak "Slovak". Ako sa más^ ? Slovak > There is no Herzegovinian ethnic or language, right? But, the old military frontier was called Bosnia & Herzeogovina. Both Croats and Serbians lived there as well. Croats were R.C., Serbs were Serbian Orthodox and Bosnians were also Muslim. > "Hungarians" from "Hungary" (Magyarorszag) speak "Hungarian". Hogy Van ? Hungarian (Non-Slavic) > "Italians" from "Italy" (Italia) speak "Italian". Come sta ? Italian > * I know that in modern correct political terms, Serbia is called > "Yugoslavia" (Jugoslavija), but I'm more interested in the cultural > terms. Formerly Serbia was all that was left of former Yugoslavia (after the 1990s fighting) Now it is called 'Serbia and Montenegro (Crna Gorna)' Montenegro (I) and Crna Gora (Montenegrin) both mean 'black mountain' in respective languages. http://www.montenegro.org/language.html > For all these groups, the English adjective for the people is the same as > the language name, except for the Slovakian Slovaks, right? Perhaps ? They speak Slovak in Slovakia. In Slovenija , Slovenian is spoken, although I have read this language called Slovene and its people Slovenes as well ? Linguistically, Slavic can be a branch of the Indo-European family of languages, usually divided into East Slavic, West Slavic, and South Slavic. East Slavic (Russian, Ukrainian, Byelorussian) West Slavic (Polish, Czech, Slovak, Sorbian) South Slavic (Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Old Church Slavonic) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Davor [SMTP:ddavor@volja.net] > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:31 AM > > To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > James, > > You guys simply amaze me. Why do you keep putting Chechs, Slovaks and > > Hungarians together with previous Yugoslavia? It kept happening to me when > > I > > worked in the States (91-95). Whenever I said I was from Slovenia, it was > > Slovakia, when I said I was from former Yugoslavia it was the same, > > sometimes it was even Soviet Union. Nevermind, let me help you out: > > Slavonians are from Slavonia (Slavonija) which is not a country but a part > > of Croatia so they speak croatian. Serbs come from Serbia (Srbija), people > > in Bosnia and Herzegovina speak croatian with slight differences in > > language > > and the only difference between Bozniaks and people from Herzegovina is > > their religion and which parts of former Yugoslavia they come from. In > > school they used to teach us that Serbs and Croats live there and many of > > them are muslims. You see, we can tell the difference by the way they > > speak > > and sometimes by their last names, which is the same for people from > > Croatia > > and Serbia. > > Another lesson from history (it's history already-means we're getting > > old): > > Yugoslav republics- Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, > > Montenegro, Macedonia. Six of them. Slovenes speak completely different > > language and Macedonians as well. All the other republics spoke Serbo > > Croatian, but now they speake Croatian (Croatia and some BiH) and Serbian > > ( Serbia, Montenegro and some BiH). Hope that helps a bit? > > Rosana > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Birkholz, James" <James.Birkholz@usa.okmetic.com> > > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:43 PM > > Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > > > > Frank, > > > > > > On your previous postings, what do "(Sl)" and "(Sk)" refer to? > > > I'm guessing "Slovene" and "Slovakian" (sp?)... > > > > > > Do Slavonians speak anything other than Croatian or Serbian? > > > > > > In fact, let's cover the bases...please correct and fill in the missing > > > pieces... > > > > > > "Croats" from "Croatia" (Hrvatska) speak "Croatian". > > > "Slovenes" from "Slovenia" (Slovenija) speak "Slovenian". > > > "Slavonians" from "Slavonia" (?______?) speak "Slavonian". > > > "Serbs" from "Serbia" (?______?) speak "Serbian". * > > > "Bozniaks" from "Bosnia" (Bosna) speak "Bosnian". > > > "Czechs" from "Czech Republic" (Ceska Republika) speak "Czech". > > > "Slovaks" from "Slovakia" (Slovensko) speak "Slovak". > > > There is no Herzegovinian ethnic or language, right? > > > "Hungarians" from "Hungary" (Magyarorszag) speak "Hungarian". > > > "Italians" from "Italy" (Italia) speak "Italian". > > > > > > * I know that in modern correct political terms, Serbia is called > > > "Yugoslavia" (Jugoslavija), but I'm more interested in the cultural > > terms. > > > > > > For all these groups, the English adjective for the people is the same > > as > > > the language name, except for the Slovakian Slovaks, right? > > > > > > James > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Frank Kurchina [SMTP:frankur@worldnet.att.net] > > > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:39 PM > > > > To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Davor wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I believe that croatian translation of Andrew should be Andrija or > > > > Andrej > > > > > although I think Andrej is more often used in Slovenia, > > > > > Rosana > > > > > > > > One source states : > > > > ANDREI m Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Croatian > > > > Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian and Croatian form of > > > > English name ANDREW. > > > > > > > > But, Andreas, Andrej is the Slovene form of ANDREW. > > > > > > > > And Bartolomej is Slovene form of BARTOLOMEW. > > > > > > > > > > >

Hello Frank, you really know the history well, but there is one question I got for you: who are Ruthenes? Thanks for the answer Rosana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > "Birkholz, James" wrote: > > > > Thanks for the additional info. > > > > I wasn't trying to group them, I'm just trying to get the terminology > > correct. I could have made a larger list by expanding the circle, but didn't > > want to. > > I included Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and Italians since they often come up > > in discussion. > > > > James > > This is not a criticism but a description of some of today's political > realities . > You can't separate European history from genealogical research. > > > Austria-Hungary, one of the largest countries of Europe in the > 19th century, was split into many countries (Austria, Hungary, > Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania, Soviet Union, Poland, Italy etc) > after World War I peace treaty (1920) > > Austria had stretched from Austria to Montenegro (Crna Gora) in > the Balkans, plus part of Poland and part of the Ukraine. > > "Over 51 million people lived in the 675,000 square kilometers of the > Austro-Hungarian Empire. The two largest ethnic groups were Germans (10 > million) and Hungarians (9 million). There were also Poles, Croats, > Bosnians, Serbians, Italians, Czechs, Ruthenes, Slovenes, Slovaks and > Romanians. Overall, fifteen different languages were spoken in the > Austro-Hungarian empire." > > Political liasons between the succcessor states has not always been > friendly, > even nowadays. > > When talking about people of Hungarian nationality it means 50 % of > Hungarians became citizens of countries other than Hungary (Romania, > Slovakia, Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Austria) > There was no country called Czechoslovakia until 1920. > > The Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes was established on > Dec. 1, 1918 and was renamed Yugoslavia on Oct. 4, 1929. > The six republics that formed the former Yugoslavia were : Bosnia > and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, and Serbia. > > Sometimes in pre-WWI ship manifests the terms Slovenian, Slovakian, > and Slavonian were confused. > > Even today, if you write to Slovenija and don't use Slovenia, the letter > gets > mailed to Slovakia. > If you write to Slovensko (Slovakia) the letter is probably sent to > Slovenia. > U.S. Postal Service only recognizes these countries under "Slovenia" and > "Slovak Republic". > > A Slovenian recently wrote a letter to Slovenia and it ended up in > Sierra Leone (Africa, where a civil war is being waged) > The letter sat there was a month, before being forwarded to Bratislava, > Slovakia, from where is was finally forwarded to the correct address in > Ljubljana, Slovenia a month later. > > A Slovenian had attempted to enter Slovakia on a Slovenian passport and > was denied entry. > Border guard had never seen a Slovene passport and was convinced it was > a forgered Slovakia passport. > After conversation with customs supervisor Slovenian was able to > convince them that it was a legitimate passport. > > > > On your previous postings, what do "(Sl)" and "(Sk)" refer to? > > I'm guessing "Slovene" and "Slovak. > > > "Slavonians" from "Slavonia" (Slavonija) speak "Slavonian". > > Slavonia was a region as in Croatia-Slavonia and ruled by the Kingdom of > Hungary and not a country. > > > Do Slavonians speak anything other than Croatian or Serbian? > > > In fact, let's cover the bases...please correct and fill in the missing > > pieces... > > > "Croats" from "Croatia" (Hrvatska) speak "Croatian". > > "Slovenes" from "Slovenia" (Slovenija) speak "Slovenian". > How are you ? English > Kako ste ? Croatian/Slovene (Roman) > > > > "Serbs" from "Serbia" (Srbija) speak "Serbian". * > K A K C T E ? Serbian/Bulgarian/Macedonian (Cyrillic) > (k ah k s t eh) > > > > "Bosniaks" from "Bosnia" (Bosna) speak "Bosnian". > > > "Czechs" from "Czech Republic" (C^eská Republika) speak "Czech". > Jak se máte ? Czech > > > "Slovaks" from "Slovakia" (Slovensko) speak "Slovak". > Ako sa más^ ? Slovak > > > > > There is no Herzegovinian ethnic or language, right? > > But, the old military frontier was called Bosnia & Herzeogovina. > Both Croats and Serbians lived there as well. > Croats were R.C., Serbs were Serbian Orthodox and Bosnians were also > Muslim. > > > "Hungarians" from "Hungary" (Magyarorszag) speak "Hungarian". > Hogy Van ? Hungarian (Non-Slavic) > > > > "Italians" from "Italy" (Italia) speak "Italian". > Come sta ? Italian > > > * I know that in modern correct political terms, Serbia is called > > "Yugoslavia" (Jugoslavija), but I'm more interested in the cultural > > terms. > > Formerly Serbia was all that was left of former Yugoslavia (after the > 1990s fighting) > Now it is called 'Serbia and Montenegro (Crna Gorna)' > Montenegro (I) and Crna Gora (Montenegrin) both mean 'black mountain' in > respective > languages. > > http://www.montenegro.org/language.html > > > > For all these groups, the English adjective for the people is the same as > > the language name, except for the Slovakian Slovaks, right? > > Perhaps ? > They speak Slovak in Slovakia. > In Slovenija , Slovenian is spoken, although I have read this language > called Slovene > and its people Slovenes as well ? > > Linguistically, Slavic can be a branch of the Indo-European family of > languages, usually > divided into East Slavic, West Slavic, and South Slavic. > > East Slavic (Russian, Ukrainian, Byelorussian) > West Slavic (Polish, Czech, Slovak, Sorbian) > South Slavic (Croatian, Serbian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, > Old Church Slavonic) > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Davor [SMTP:ddavor@volja.net] > > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:31 AM > > > To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > > > James, > > > You guys simply amaze me. Why do you keep putting Chechs, Slovaks and > > > Hungarians together with previous Yugoslavia? It kept happening to me when > > > I > > > worked in the States (91-95). Whenever I said I was from Slovenia, it was > > > Slovakia, when I said I was from former Yugoslavia it was the same, > > > sometimes it was even Soviet Union. Nevermind, let me help you out: > > > Slavonians are from Slavonia (Slavonija) which is not a country but a part > > > of Croatia so they speak croatian. Serbs come from Serbia (Srbija), people > > > in Bosnia and Herzegovina speak croatian with slight differences in > > > language > > > and the only difference between Bozniaks and people from Herzegovina is > > > their religion and which parts of former Yugoslavia they come from. In > > > school they used to teach us that Serbs and Croats live there and many of > > > them are muslims. You see, we can tell the difference by the way they > > > speak > > > and sometimes by their last names, which is the same for people from > > > Croatia > > > and Serbia. > > > Another lesson from history (it's history already-means we're getting > > > old): > > > Yugoslav republics- Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, > > > Montenegro, Macedonia. Six of them. Slovenes speak completely different > > > language and Macedonians as well. All the other republics spoke Serbo > > > Croatian, but now they speake Croatian (Croatia and some BiH) and Serbian > > > ( Serbia, Montenegro and some BiH). Hope that helps a bit? > > > Rosana > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Birkholz, James" <James.Birkholz@usa.okmetic.com> > > > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:43 PM > > > Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > > > > > > > Frank, > > > > > > > > On your previous postings, what do "(Sl)" and "(Sk)" refer to? > > > > I'm guessing "Slovene" and "Slovakian" (sp?)... > > > > > > > > Do Slavonians speak anything other than Croatian or Serbian? > > > > > > > > In fact, let's cover the bases...please correct and fill in the missing > > > > pieces... > > > > > > > > "Croats" from "Croatia" (Hrvatska) speak "Croatian". > > > > "Slovenes" from "Slovenia" (Slovenija) speak "Slovenian". > > > > "Slavonians" from "Slavonia" (?______?) speak "Slavonian". > > > > "Serbs" from "Serbia" (?______?) speak "Serbian". * > > > > "Bozniaks" from "Bosnia" (Bosna) speak "Bosnian". > > > > "Czechs" from "Czech Republic" (Ceska Republika) speak "Czech". > > > > "Slovaks" from "Slovakia" (Slovensko) speak "Slovak". > > > > There is no Herzegovinian ethnic or language, right? > > > > "Hungarians" from "Hungary" (Magyarorszag) speak "Hungarian". > > > > "Italians" from "Italy" (Italia) speak "Italian". > > > > > > > > * I know that in modern correct political terms, Serbia is called > > > > "Yugoslavia" (Jugoslavija), but I'm more interested in the cultural > > > terms. > > > > > > > > For all these groups, the English adjective for the people is the same > > > as > > > > the language name, except for the Slovakian Slovaks, right? > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Frank Kurchina [SMTP:frankur@worldnet.att.net] > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:39 PM > > > > > To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Given name - "Goames" (Latin) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Davor wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that croatian translation of Andrew should be Andrija or > > > > > Andrej > > > > > > although I think Andrej is more often used in Slovenia, > > > > > > Rosana > > > > > > > > > > One source states : > > > > > ANDREI m Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Croatian > > > > > Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Romanian and Croatian form of > > > > > English name ANDREW. > > > > > > > > > > But, Andreas, Andrej is the Slovene form of ANDREW. > > > > > > > > > > And Bartolomej is Slovene form of BARTOLOMEW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >