----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the 16 > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His name > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a list I > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and the > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes me > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to go > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age 20. > > Thank you for your help. > > Louise > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > listing > with little surname information. Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have looked at a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship manifests. I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and you would have about 30 columns. The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following information: Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival Date of Arrival in the U. S. Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship Personal Information about Each Passenger including: Full Name Age, Sex and Marital Status Occupation Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the Passenger was added in 1906 The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from which they came was added in 1907 The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to have about 15 columns 1897-1901 had 21 1902- 1906 had 22 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point 1908-1916 had 29 1917-1923 had 33 1924 had 36 Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! Robert Jerin

Suzanne Jerin wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > > > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the > 16 > > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His > name > > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a > list I > > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and > the > > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes > me > > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to > go > > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age > 20. > > > Thank you for your help. > > > Louise > > > > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > > listing > > with little surname information. > > Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for > later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those > after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. > > I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the > earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have > looked at > a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship > manifests. > > I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr > Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated > Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest > used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly > above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence > from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. > > This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that > time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology > of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns > for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the > information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you > mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, > poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair > color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of > birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and > you would have about 30 columns. > > The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain > more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, > further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value > to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following > information: > > Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival > Date of Arrival in the U. S. > Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship > Personal Information about Each Passenger including: > Full Name > Age, Sex and Marital Status > Occupation > Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. > If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where > If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship > The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 > A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the > Passenger was added in 1906 > The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from > which they came was added in 1907 > The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 > > I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to > have about 15 columns > 1897-1901 had 21 > 1902- 1906 had 22 > 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point > 1908-1916 had 29 > 1917-1923 had 33 > 1924 had 36 > > Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the > immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! > > Robert Jerin I think you made an excellent presentation describing the evolution of surname information contained in Immigration Passenger Lists 1892-1924, Over the years have reviewed hundreds of ship manifests microfilms, so also know what kind of information would be listed on them. But, the later online Ellis Island ship manifests also don't always match the actual ship manifests available, from say the LDS-Mormons or National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) centers. Basically, the Ellis Island database seems to be based on the lists prepared by the shipping lines at the ports of departure with emigrant information and before the vessels actually sailed to the U.S. port of entry (NYC) Generally the NARA and LDS microfilms contain the emigrant information written down by the ship personnel, usually the day before vessel's arrival at the various U.S. ports of entry, including Ellis Island (NYC) There are Passenger Lists and there are Passenger Lists ! But, certain issues with the NARA ship manifests versus online EIR ship manifests do disturb me. Possible different surname information listed and/or surnames missing. An example: The manifest on the Ellis Island Web site for my own parental surnames arrival in the U.S. (1900) didn't match the actual Passenger List microfilms I had previously reviewed line by line at local LDS FHC. Here, I had reviewed the actual ship manifest listing of approx. 1,200 steerage class passengers, line by line, four times. For example, on NARA microfilm I had read at FHC - of 6 supposed names on ship manifest for date of arrival , could only locate my father's name, age 9. First names listed in ship manifests from German ports were known to have been often changed to German name equivalents by some German ship personnel. On the other hand, the Ellis Island manifest listed my GM; two uncles, ages 2 and 4 ; an unknown aunt, age 16, but no father ? And here their first names were in Hungarian. Immigrant ship manifests certainly changed over time ! But, for same ship and same date of arrival ? EIR being a later volunteer project is possibly using different sources for their ship manifest entries ? And the older LDS and NARA Indexes to PLs used Soundex Code. EIR project developed their own special linguistics code for surnames which is not as inclusive as the old Soundex Code for variant surname spellings. Aside, from possible surname and place name mispellings or transcribing errors, in EIR, which above set of ship manifests has greater validity in surname research ? Hate to think I must now use online EIR, Morse, plus the actual FHC microfilms to arrive at correct consensus. v Frank Kurcina

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > Suzanne Jerin wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > > > > > > > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the > > 16 > > > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His > > name > > > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a > > list I > > > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and > > the > > > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes > > me > > > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to > > go > > > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age > > 20. > > > > Thank you for your help. > > > > Louise > > > > > > > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > > > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > > > listing > > > with little surname information. > > > > Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for > > later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those > > after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. > > > > I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the > > earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have > > looked at > > a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship > > manifests. > > > > I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr > > Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated > > Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest > > used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly > > above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence > > from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. > > > > This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that > > time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology > > of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns > > for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the > > information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you > > mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, > > poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair > > color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of > > birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and > > you would have about 30 columns. > > > > The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain > > more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, > > further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value > > to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following > > information: > > > > Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival > > Date of Arrival in the U. S. > > Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship > > Personal Information about Each Passenger including: > > Full Name > > Age, Sex and Marital Status > > Occupation > > Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. > > If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where > > If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship > > The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 > > A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the > > Passenger was added in 1906 > > The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from > > which they came was added in 1907 > > The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 > > > > I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to > > have about 15 columns > > 1897-1901 had 21 > > 1902- 1906 had 22 > > 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point > > 1908-1916 had 29 > > 1917-1923 had 33 > > 1924 had 36 > > > > Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the > > immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! > > > > Robert Jerin > > I think you made an excellent presentation describing the evolution of > surname information contained in Immigration Passenger Lists 1892-1924, > > Over the years have reviewed hundreds of ship manifests microfilms, so > also know what kind of information would be listed on them. > > But, the later online Ellis Island ship manifests also don't always > match > the actual ship manifests available, from say the LDS-Mormons or > National > Archives and Records Administration (NARA) centers. > > Basically, the Ellis Island database seems to be based on the lists > prepared > by the shipping lines at the ports of departure with emigrant > information > and before the vessels actually sailed to the U.S. port of entry (NYC) > > Generally the NARA and LDS microfilms contain the emigrant information > written down by the ship personnel, usually the day before vessel's > arrival at the various U.S. ports of entry, including Ellis Island (NYC) > > There are Passenger Lists and there are Passenger Lists ! > > But, certain issues with the NARA ship manifests versus online EIR ship > manifests do disturb me. > Possible different surname information listed and/or surnames missing. > > An example: > > The manifest on the Ellis Island Web site for my own parental surnames > arrival in > the U.S. (1900) didn't match the actual Passenger List microfilms I had > previously > reviewed line by line at local LDS FHC. > Here, I had reviewed the actual ship manifest listing of approx. 1,200 > steerage > class passengers, line by line, four times. > For example, on NARA microfilm I had read at FHC - of 6 supposed names > on ship > manifest for date of arrival , could only locate my father's name, age > 9. > First names listed in ship manifests from German ports were known to > have > been often changed to German name equivalents by some German ship > personnel. > > On the other hand, the Ellis Island manifest listed my GM; two uncles, > ages > 2 and 4 ; an unknown aunt, age 16, but no father ? > And here their first names were in Hungarian. > > Immigrant ship manifests certainly changed over time ! > > But, for same ship and same date of arrival ? > EIR being a later volunteer project is possibly using different sources > for > their ship manifest entries ? > And the older LDS and NARA Indexes to PLs used Soundex Code. > EIR project developed their own special linguistics code for surnames > which is > not as inclusive as the old Soundex Code for variant surname spellings. > > Aside, from possible surname and place name mispellings or transcribing > errors, > in EIR, which above set of ship manifests has greater validity in > surname > research ? > > Hate to think I must now use online EIR, Morse, plus the actual FHC > microfilms to arrive > at correct consensus. > > v > Frank Kurcina Thanks for that info now I am wondering if my GGM has another ship manifest! Her manifest was much like the one that we discussed above. Your description above is the first time that I have have heard anyone mention the possibility of 2 sets of ship manifests. Have you inquired with EIR about this? Oh and it was not my wife, Suzanne, who posted it was me. Don't know why her address came up as mine is the default on this PC Thanks Robert