Kurt, I had to think a bit more about this.... The difference was that the part of Croatia you mentioned had very rich farmland and attracted people from other parts of Croatia as well as Bohemia and Slovakia. I helped a man named CINDRICH once and was surprised that his GF came from Nova Petrovo Selo in the Posavina region.... I told him this surprised me as CINDRIC is from around Slunj/Cetingrad.... when he joined us for my tour last year he brought along a document ... a family tree of sorts... and indicated that his GGF was from Slunj.... so people did move to certain areas that were productive... not unlike your family who came to America to work in the mines and factories... they went wherever there was work... but did not go to places where they could not earn a good living... this was the case with the village of my GF, lovely vineyards, but not much opportunity for nova dosli (new comers) An area across the Kupa River from the place my GF was from, known as Zumberak supplied numerous immigrants in Cleveland, Chicago and the UP of Mich and the Iron Range in MN... but not many had moved into Zumberak... at least in the last several hundred years... but around 1400 to 1500 people of German background had gone to Zumberak to work as rudari... miners ! So thinking about our exchange of info I (we) need to keep in mind conditions at various times... when we speak about immigration and emigration. My GFs village may have seen the largest inward migration when the Frankopans and Zrinskis ruled the area as they brought skilled craftsmen with them to Ozalj area, some from the coastal areas of Croatia and some from Tyrol.... Interesting that people have been arriving in Croatia for centuries with many assimilating becoming Croatians and some not assimilating Robert Kurt McCrary <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> wrote: Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Ñðåì), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manor—that is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lord’s demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lord’s control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf

Thank You Robert and list, You have explained it well. I suppose, I should have given a date and a area in my query, but didn't realize that it would have mattered..........In regards to the Feudal system, Now I know that it does matter in some regards. And thats one of the reasons I am here........to learn. Seems the rules of the Fuedal system varied by location, and probably by the lord....Also seems to have been somewhat archaic and its longevity probably prolonged by the Turkish war......... Yes, assimilation is very interesting and it happened both ways. Seems most everyone was afraid to lose there heritage.........while others just melted. I suppose economics played a key role either way. I know it happened in my family in Croatia The US is the melting but Croatia certainly did some melting. I had a great Uncle that was German Ethnicity both mother and father and grew up only a couple miles from a village were one of my grandfathers lived in Croatia , My great Uncle claimed to be Croatian, only knew how to read and write Croatian and always sang Croatian songs. He was fully assimilated..........While his cousin my grandfather was a non assimilated, German,He could read and write Croatian but his main Language and his ancestry was always German. My grandmother a Croatian claimed to be German at Ellis island, I guess since she married one she thought she became one.............. ;-) In the US so many of us are "mutts, some people have know Idea" that they have lost most of there roots..... Its funny when I am asked about my nationality, I have to ask them how much time they have and which side the would like to know about...;-) I don't know the statistics on interest in Genealogy research, but with the computer age upon us and on line records it must have shot way up. By the way where are the Croatian Census's located? Thank Again Best regards Kurt Robert Jerin <rjerin26@yahoo.com> wrote: Kurt, I had to think a bit more about this.... The difference was that the part of Croatia you mentioned had very rich farmland and attracted people from other parts of Croatia as well as Bohemia and Slovakia. I helped a man named CINDRICH once and was surprised that his GF came from Nova Petrovo Selo in the Posavina region.... I told him this surprised me as CINDRIC is from around Slunj/Cetingrad.... when he joined us for my tour last year he brought along a document ... a family tree of sorts... and indicated that his GGF was from Slunj.... so people did move to certain areas that were productive... not unlike your family who came to America to work in the mines and factories... they went wherever there was work... but did not go to places where they could not earn a good living... this was the case with the village of my GF, lovely vineyards, but not much opportunity for nova dosli (new comers) An area across the Kupa River from the place my GF was from, known as Zumberak supplied numerous immigrants in Cleveland, Chicago and the UP of Mich and the Iron Range in MN... but not many had moved into Zumberak... at least in the last several hundred years... but around 1400 to 1500 people of German background had gone to Zumberak to work as rudari... miners ! So thinking about our exchange of info I (we) need to keep in mind conditions at various times... when we speak about immigration and emigration. My GFs village may have seen the largest inward migration when the Frankopans and Zrinskis ruled the area as they brought skilled craftsmen with them to Ozalj area, some from the coastal areas of Croatia and some from Tyrol.... Interesting that people have been arriving in Croatia for centuries with many assimilating becoming Croatians and some not assimilating Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Ñðåì), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manor—that is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lord’s demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lord’s control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.

Kurt, Anyone in the extended Austro-Hungarian (Hapsburg) Empire (up to WWI when the version of what became Yugoslavia was established including Croatia) someone coming to the US from Croatia would general claim to be Austrian. Census enumerators have often claimed their language was German (because they were from Austria) when I know for certain mine read & wrote Italian (being from the Dalmatian area) and probably understood Croatian but didn't know much German. Records in this area were generally all in Italian until around 1860s/1870s when Croatain was finally adopted. But note I've found some early records in Glagolytic, some church records in Latin, a few records can be found in French (early 1800s) and German (some Austrian military records from the Croatian area). Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia Thank You Robert and list, You have explained it well. I suppose, I should have given a date and a area in my query, but didn't realize that it would have mattered..........In regards to the Feudal system, Now I know that it does matter in some regards. And thats one of the reasons I am here........to learn. Seems the rules of the Fuedal system varied by location, and probably by the lord....Also seems to have been somewhat archaic and its longevity probably prolonged by the Turkish war......... Yes, assimilation is very interesting and it happened both ways. Seems most everyone was afraid to lose there heritage.........while others just melted. I suppose economics played a key role either way. I know it happened in my family in Croatia The US is the melting but Croatia certainly did some melting. I had a great Uncle that was German Ethnicity both mother and father and grew up only a couple miles from a village were one of my grandfathers lived in Croatia , My great Uncle claimed to be Croatian, only knew how to read and write Croatian and always sang Croatian songs. He was fully assimilated..........While his cousin my grandfather was a non assimilated, German,He could read and write Croatian but his main Language and his ancestry was always German. My grandmother a Croatian claimed to be German at Ellis island, I guess since she married one she thought she became one.............. ;-) In the US so many of us are "mutts, some people have know Idea" that they have lost most of there roots..... Its funny when I am asked about my nationality, I have to ask them how much time they have and which side the would like to know about...;-) I don't know the statistics on interest in Genealogy research, but with the computer age upon us and on line records it must have shot way up. By the way where are the Croatian Census's located? Thank Again Best regards Kurt Robert Jerin <rjerin26@yahoo.com> wrote: Kurt, I had to think a bit more about this.... The difference was that the part of Croatia you mentioned had very rich farmland and attracted people from other parts of Croatia as well as Bohemia and Slovakia. I helped a man named CINDRICH once and was surprised that his GF came from Nova Petrovo Selo in the Posavina region.... I told him this surprised me as CINDRIC is from around Slunj/Cetingrad.... when he joined us for my tour last year he brought along a document ... a family tree of sorts... and indicated that his GGF was from Slunj.... so people did move to certain areas that were productive... not unlike your family who came to America to work in the mines and factories... they went wherever there was work... but did not go to places where they could not earn a good living... this was the case with the village of my GF, lovely vineyards, but not much opportunity for nova dosli (new comers) An area across the Kupa River from the place my GF was from, known as Zumberak supplied numerous immigrants in Cleveland, Chicago and the UP of Mich and the Iron Range in MN... but not many had moved into Zumberak... at least in the last several hundred years... but around 1400 to 1500 people of German background had gone to Zumberak to work as rudari... miners ! So thinking about our exchange of info I (we) need to keep in mind conditions at various times... when we speak about immigration and emigration. My GFs village may have seen the largest inward migration when the Frankopans and Zrinskis ruled the area as they brought skilled craftsmen with them to Ozalj area, some from the coastal areas of Croatia and some from Tyrol.... Interesting that people have been arriving in Croatia for centuries with many assimilating becoming Croatians and some not assimilating Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Ñðåì), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manor-that is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lord's demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lord's control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message