Hello .dr Former . Thank You, For the information. Looks like I need to do more research. I did not know Vukovar became a actual city so long ago, and a free city. It must have had a significant population. So no Serfs lived in the City of Vukovar. Just on the Eltz Estate, of the now 35 Villages. Do You happen to know the difference between Vukovar and New Vukovar in the 1800's? Thank You Best Regards Kurt Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Kurt, there are only 4 Vlado Horvats in Zgb tel book: Horvat Vlado Zagreb, Žuti breg 25 (+385) 1 2929 069 02. Horvat Vlado Zagreb, Karela Zahradnika 23 (+385) 1 6642 369 03. Horvat Vlado Zagreb, Šljivik 22 (+385) 1 2347 547 04. Horvat Vlado Zagreb, Travanjska 19 (+385) 1 3872 881 Write to them to find the one you are looking for. These days educated people overthere know English or at least understand it. I find bookwtiters quite helpful when asking them something. The Eltzes returned to Croatia. They will know where their estate's archives are. You can also find them in the Zgb tel book: Eltz Vukovarski Georg Zagreb, Trg Antuna, Ivana i Vladimira Mažuranica 5 (+385) 1 4855 454 Georg may be willing to give you some information you are looking for. His late father was quite helpful when I had some questions. Finally I think you are mixing apples and oranges. In feudal system cities did not belong to the feudal lords and the citizens were not serfs. They would get a charter from the king as "free royal city". Zagreb got hers in 1242 from king Bela. In 1231 Vukovar was proclaimed a free royal city. From 1526 to 1687 Vukovar was under Turkish occupation but upon liberation this did not change her original legal status. Eltz's Vukovar town is not the same as the city of Vukovar. dr Former --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.