Re: Feudal system and land ownership in Croatia. The Austrian "military border" of Croatia established in 1522 (and technically lasted until 1881) was a special exception in two ways: 1) direct control from Viena 2) the peasants had title to their land. Title to the land was the motivation that kept them anchored there on land that wasn't generally the best for farming with the obligation that half the males had to serve in the "border guard" that could be called out at any time to oppose the invading Turks.
My relatives and parents are from Istria. They said it appears to be a mesh of both Italian words and some Croatian slang that we use. However it's still really badly misspelled, hopefully Sylvia could try to scan it and then post to the list (the scan). I'm sure we could both figure it out in a jiffy! :) if you can't scan it Sylvia then try to review the text slowly and type it out again. Please. BTW Sylvia, nonna = grandma (that is what my son calls my mom and nonno for my dad) Would like to see the real text to see what they are saying. :) I speak both. On Apr 1, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Robert Jerin wrote: Ah, but perhaps it is some old dialect used in Istria? Robert Natalie Prodan <prodan@alltel.net> wrote: This is Italian but a lot is misspelled. If possible try scanning the postcard and then sending to the list as an attachment. What you have below is so very misspelled that it's hard to translate without spending so much time and it may take the meaning out of context for some of the words are gibberish. :( On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sylvia Havens wrote: came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. Thanks, Sylvia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
But the Military Borderland (Militärgrenze) also included parts of the area around Pakrac and also into Slavonia and the Banat which has good farmland... as well the Uskok who where pirates employed by the Austrians to raid Turkish ships on the Adriatic and later moving to Zumberak had special privilages ...but I don't know if the same rules about peasant ownership applied as it did in the Lika region. I have seen RC parish records for Udbina (Lika region) and every man was listed as granièari into the late 1800s.... granièari = border guard http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Militargrenze.jpg Robert James Castellan <james.castellan@alumni.brown.edu> wrote: Re: Feudal system and land ownership in Croatia. The Austrian "military border" of Croatia established in 1522 (and technically lasted until 1881) was a special exception in two ways: 1) direct control from Viena 2) the peasants had title to their land. Title to the land was the motivation that kept them anchored there on land that wasn't generally the best for farming with the obligation that half the males had to serve in the "border guard" that could be called out at any time to oppose the invading Turks. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
Kurt, I had to think a bit more about this.... The difference was that the part of Croatia you mentioned had very rich farmland and attracted people from other parts of Croatia as well as Bohemia and Slovakia. I helped a man named CINDRICH once and was surprised that his GF came from Nova Petrovo Selo in the Posavina region.... I told him this surprised me as CINDRIC is from around Slunj/Cetingrad.... when he joined us for my tour last year he brought along a document ... a family tree of sorts... and indicated that his GGF was from Slunj.... so people did move to certain areas that were productive... not unlike your family who came to America to work in the mines and factories... they went wherever there was work... but did not go to places where they could not earn a good living... this was the case with the village of my GF, lovely vineyards, but not much opportunity for nova dosli (new comers) An area across the Kupa River from the place my GF was from, known as Zumberak supplied numerous immigrants in Cleveland, Chicago and the UP of Mich and the Iron Range in MN... but not many had moved into Zumberak... at least in the last several hundred years... but around 1400 to 1500 people of German background had gone to Zumberak to work as rudari... miners ! So thinking about our exchange of info I (we) need to keep in mind conditions at various times... when we speak about immigration and emigration. My GFs village may have seen the largest inward migration when the Frankopans and Zrinskis ruled the area as they brought skilled craftsmen with them to Ozalj area, some from the coastal areas of Croatia and some from Tyrol.... Interesting that people have been arriving in Croatia for centuries with many assimilating becoming Croatians and some not assimilating Robert Kurt McCrary <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> wrote: Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Ñðåì), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manorthat is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lords demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lords control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Срем), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin <rjerin26@yahoo.com> wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manorthat is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lords demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lords control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends.
This is Italian but a lot is misspelled. If possible try scanning the postcard and then sending to the list as an attachment. What you have below is so very misspelled that it's hard to translate without spending so much time and it may take the meaning out of context for some of the words are gibberish. :( On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sylvia Havens wrote: came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. Thanks, Sylvia
Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manorthat is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lords demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lords control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
Nick, This was not the case in Croatia, where the Gregorian calendar had been in use since 1912. And some sources claim that SHS did not adopt the Gregorian Calendar until 1923. Here is an interesting article from the net... straight from Beograd "What about Yugoslavia? Branislav Skrobonja (Beograd, Yugoslavia) (e9): In 1912 the situation on Balkan was as follows: There were five independent orthodox kingdoms in which the Julian Calendar were in force: Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia and Montenegro. Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina were part of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, where Gregorian calendar was valid. Macedonia was part of the Turkish Empire where the official calendar was the Islamic calendar. A consequence of the wars during 1912/13 was that Macedonia, where orthodox inhabitants were dominant, became part of Kingdom of Serbia. That means that Julian calendar was now effective in Macedonia, too. First World War 1914-1918 One of results of that war was that Kingdoms of Serbia and Montenegro joined in one - Kingdom of Serbia, where Julian calendar was effective. The other two constituent countries, Slovenia and Croatia, departed from the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, and on 1st December 1918 GR these two with Kingdom of Serbia made Kingdom Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (SHS), which lasted till 1929 when it changed the name to Kingdom of Yugoslavia. That means that in Slovenia and Croatia Gregorian calendar was in force at the moment they have joined with Serbia. The Change Over in Yugoslavia The Kingdom of Yugoslavia got its name on 6 January 1929. Before that, it was known as Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, shortly Kingdom of SHS Kingdom (the name for Croats is Hrvati). As mentioned SHS was established on 1 December 1918, immediately after First World War. As in previous Kingdom of Serbia dates were reckoned according to the Julian Calendar (Old Style), but on 10 January 1919 the royal government of Kingdom of SHS issued a law that the last Old Style date was 14 January 1919 JU and the First Gregorian Day was 28 January 1919 GR. Julian calendar is still in force in the Serbian Orthodox Church. So actually the Julian calendar were only in use in the orthodox part, namely Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Due to the fact that in other parts, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina in practice was Gregorian, royal government had decided to uniformly use in whole territory Gregorian Calendar according to the law of 10 January 1919." Robert nharamija <nharamija@wowway.com> wrote: All are correct as there was a cast system aka King, Prince, and Lord also there was safety in numbers as the men were required to serve in the defense of the kingdom. There also were crafts in the cities with the needs of the King, Prince foremost and the best were transfer at the monarchy's whim for vanity or favor. By the way did you all know that "Yugoslavia" did not change from the Julian Calendar until March 4, 1919 and began the Gregorian Calendar at March 18,1919. All born before that date are12 days younger. I found a list of dates of versus countries. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" To: Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
Robert, don't know. That is what is on the front of the card. Looks like in the mountains. Sylvia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jerin" <rjerin26@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] post card > This is not Croatian. It appears to be Italian of some sort. What or > where is Ugovinna/Ugiovienna? > > Robert > > Sylvia Havens <sylvia.havens@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of > Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can > someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the > panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. > > Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv > e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd > lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e > pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e > vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor > Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug > eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. > > Thanks, Sylvia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia > http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Ok - will see if I can do that. Sylvia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Natalie Prodan" <prodan@alltel.net> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] post card > This is Italian but a lot is misspelled. > > If possible try scanning the postcard and then sending to the list as > an attachment. What you have below is so very misspelled that it's > hard to translate without spending so much time and it may take the > meaning out of context for some of the words are gibberish. :( > > > On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sylvia Havens wrote: > > came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of > Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be > incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is > interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and > mail. > > Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e > ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia > dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! > Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con > la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi > a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a > Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. > > Thanks, Sylvia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello List, I wasn't able to post for the last roll call (July/August of 2006), so hope you don't mind this is a little late. Best regards Kurt Roll Call Researching: ABT -Neudorf (Baca Novoselo) Batschka -Sotin,Srijem / Syrmein AMENT / AMEND -Reicholzheim, Kuelsheim, Baden -Filipowa, Obrovac, Batschka Tompoveci, Sotin, Lovas, Vinkovci Syrmein/Srijem-Sanktanna, Banat, Elec, Hungary BALINT -Sotin, Tompojevci, Tovarnik Syrmein / Srijem ERNST -Waibstadt, Baden FEDERLEIN -Reicholzheim, Gamburg, Baden GALAUNER / KALAUNER / KALNER Sotin,Tompojevci,Nutar,Syrmein / Srijem, Miletic, Obrovac, Batschka- Sanktanna, (Arad, Mercydorf?) Banat GUCKENBURGER Reicholzheim, Baden HORVATH Sotin, Syrmein MARVAN /MARVIN (J) Sotin, Opatovac. Lowas (Lovas) Syrmein / Srijem METZLER -Waibstadt, Baden- Filipowa, Batschka NUSSBRUCKER Tompojevci, Sotin -Syrmein Neudorf (Bacs Novo Selo) Batschka PROHASZKA -Filipowa, Batschka, and Moravia SCHUMACHER - Miletisch, Csatalja, Apatin, Batschka SEILER - Sanktanna, Banat, Landshausen, Baden WITUSCHUK - Filipowa - Obrovac (Obrowatz) Moravia-Bohemia Colateral lines: MAYER Gara, Batschka, Tompojevci, Srijem /Syrmein PUTTERER / PUDERE -Tompojevci, Syrmien Gara, Batschka TITJUNG / TITYUNG -Kernie, Batshka -Tompojevci, Lovas (Lowas), Vinkovci, Syrmein Rokovci, Orolik, Srijem /Syrmein MAROSEVICS -Vinkovci, Srijem /Syrmein ALMAS Tompojevci, Opatovac, Sotin, Srijem / Syrmein CVITKO Vinkovci, Syrmein LETT Lovas, Vinkovci, Srijem / Syrmia LENHOFF - Neudorf (Baca novo selo) Batschka -Sotin, Srijem /Syrmein ROTTINGINGER -Gasinci / Casinci, Gashince? Staro Topolje?, Slovinki Brod. =============================== Srijem /Syrmia /Srem (Vukovar) ABT, ALMAS, AMENT / AMEND, BALINT, CVITKO, GALAUNER / KALAUNER / KALNER, HORVATH, LENHOFF, LETT, MARVAN /MARVIN, NUSSBRUCKER, MAYER, MAROSEVICS, PUTTERER / PUDERE, ROTTINGINGER, TITJUNG / TITYUNG. Researching Syrmein / Srijem (Vukovar Area) Villages: 1)Tompoveci, 2)Sotting/Sotin, Zatta/Szatta 3)Opatovac, 4)Lowas/Lovac/Lovas, 5)Vinkovci, 6)Tovarnik 7)Vukovar 8)Nutar Also Ilaca and Orolik And Gasinci / Casinci, Gashince? Staro Topolje?, Slovinki Brod. in Slavonia --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
Ah, but perhaps it is some old dialect used in Istria? Robert Natalie Prodan <prodan@alltel.net> wrote: This is Italian but a lot is misspelled. If possible try scanning the postcard and then sending to the list as an attachment. What you have below is so very misspelled that it's hard to translate without spending so much time and it may take the meaning out of context for some of the words are gibberish. :( On Apr 1, 2007, at 2:02 PM, Sylvia Havens wrote: came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. Thanks, Sylvia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
This is not Croatian. It appears to be Italian of some sort. What or where is Ugovinna/Ugiovienna? Robert Sylvia Havens <sylvia.havens@sbcglobal.net> wrote: came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. Thanks, Sylvia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
All are correct as there was a cast system aka King, Prince, and Lord also there was safety in numbers as the men were required to serve in the defense of the kingdom. There also were crafts in the cities with the needs of the King, Prince foremost and the best were transfer at the monarchy's whim for vanity or favor. By the way did you all know that "Yugoslavia" did not change from the Julian Calendar until March 4, 1919 and began the Gregorian Calendar at March 18,1919. All born before that date are12 days younger. I found a list of dates of versus countries. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia
came across a post card dated January 12, 1949. It is a panorama of Ugovinna. It is handwritten so some of the letters might be incorrect. Can someone transcribe this for me? If anyone is interested in a copy of the panorama of Ugiovienna - I can copy and mail. Alla lara nipstina Silvana. Auguri per sus conpleanr dela sur nonna e ziv e sugini. He I pote conpern seripre sana e buona diljei. Lajuoia dei twd lrioni genitsri altre trento. Auguro ala trlorenz e tuti voi! Guepts e pabse dove noi semo ora e pieno di nevt, guela due case con la crore una e vriola altra e dove nai alrtemo, buce ed abrari vortoi a nonora, Milkor Fauti puno eisi a te Sylvia 3 salute e bige a Florence, bia my alfred, Tug eig Eig e cup vista, rio tauller. Thanks, Sylvia
I'm sure you also know that many of the Orthodox churches including Serbian still follow the Julian calendar. As the product of a mixed marriage (Croatian and Serbian) as children we always celebrated two Christmases (12/25 and 1/7) and in case you think political correctness is a recent phenomenon in this country, anybody who opted to miss school January 7 in the steel town where I grew up was permitted to do so. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "nharamija" <nharamija@wowway.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia > All are correct as there was a cast system aka King, Prince, and Lord also > there was safety in numbers as the men were required to serve in the > defense > of the kingdom. > There also were crafts in the cities with the needs of the King, Prince > foremost and the best were transfer at the monarchy's whim for vanity or > favor. > By the way did you all know that "Yugoslavia" did not change from the > Julian > Calendar until March 4, 1919 and began the Gregorian Calendar at March > 18,1919. All born before that date are12 days younger. I found a list of > dates of versus countries. > Nick > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> > To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 9:45 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manor—that is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lord’s demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lord’s control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan <prodan@alltel.net> wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manorthat is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lords demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lords control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
Estelle, You're welcome. Yet when I think about the records from 1855 from the parish of Sosice, located in Zumberak Highlands, I recall seeing someone who had the status of Posjednici, which means Lordship. Which would indicate that the title (if not the system) was still in tact. Robert Estelle Daniels <stelly__57@hotmail.com> wrote: Thank you for your reply Robert. Little by little I am getting a picture of the time that my great grandfather spent in his homeland before emigrating. Kind regards Estelle >From: Robert Jerin >Reply-To: croatia@rootsweb.com >To: croatia@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 02:41:52 -0700 (PDT) > >Estelle, > > You are correct. This system lasted until sometime around the peasant >revolts of c. 1848 > > Robert > >Estelle Daniels wrote: > Thank you Dr Former - that clarifies it somewhat for me. Am I right in >assuming that the "feudal lord" would have owned the land? >Regards Estelle > > > >From: Tat417761@cs.com > >Reply-To: croatia@rootsweb.com > >To: croatia@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia > >Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 04:18:52 EDT > > > >Estelle, > >serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a > >specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the > >administration and > >defense. > >Some similarity to our tax payments. > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message > >_________________________________________________________________ >Advertisement: Chat with 1000s of Sexy Singles right now >http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D25447&_t=754951090&_r=chat&_m=EXT > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > > >To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia > http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Advertisement: Want FREE talk & text to 5 Telstra numbers? Find out how http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fadsfac%2Enet%2Flink%2Easp%3Fcc%3DTEL243%2E40035%2E0%26clk%3D1%26creativeID%3D56076&_t=761565722&_r=Hotmail_email_tagline_1March07&_m=EXT ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf
Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments.