Natalie - saw the post. Thanks, it was much appreciated. Sylvia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Natalie Prodan" <prodan@alltel.net> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Ugovizza - Please repost postcard translation(italian) for Sylvia please > Sylvia another member took the time to figure out the translation > from the misspellings. :) > > Recheck your posts for it. You don't have to scan it since she took > the time out to do this. > > > > On Apr 3, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Sylvia Havens wrote: > > Hi all, still working on trying to scan the post card. But since it > is so old and the ink is fading it will be a little hard. I did > locate the town on the reverse side. It is Ugovizza - North of > Trieste. In searching for the town I found it had a massive > landslide in 2003. I believe the card was sent to me by my Aunt > Rita. If anyone is interested in a copy of the photo of the town - > please let me know. > Sylvia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, still working on trying to scan the post card. But since it is so old and the ink is fading it will be a little hard. I did locate the town on the reverse side. It is Ugovizza - North of Trieste. In searching for the town I found it had a massive landslide in 2003. I believe the card was sent to me by my Aunt Rita. If anyone is interested in a copy of the photo of the town - please let me know. Sylvia

Thank you to everyone who responded. We obtained the information that my GF filed his Declaration of Intent from some documents found at Footnote.com. The U.S. Government investigated my GF during WWI because he was a vocal proponent of Croatia remaining under Austrian rule. The file is available at the footnote website including the comment that he had filed his Declaration of Intent. A while back and prior to obtaining the information at Footnote, I contacted someone with the NARA region where my GF lived in the western US, but he referred me to NARA headquarters in Washington. Someone in Washington then conducted a search but found nothing. I will be able to spend a day or day and a half at NARA headquarters next week, but have so much to do that I did not want to spend a lot of time looking for the "Intent" papers if there was little chance they are there. Based on the replies, it appears there is, at least, a possibility I might have some success. However, If I do not find them in DC, I can't think of a better excuse to visit the beautiful state of Montana. Thanks again. Sarah

Kurt, you seem to be visualizing Am. suburbs with a house and 4 family members in. Such house- even today- rarely exists in other countries. Even rich people have extra inhabitants: maids, cooks, gardeners etc. So 15 in the house is not impossible and no need for tents. Tents were used by Turks (originally nomads ), not the native Croats. Zagreb had a nice wall and the key to the doors was kept by families on a rotating basis.

Hello Hummer Plese, Delnice and Crni Lug were at no time part of the Militaergrenze. Here is a telephone directory map with Crni Lug: http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/map.dll/image?l=4&x=2359935&y=5031025&cx=2359935& cy=5031025&w=640&h=410 and Delnice- Crni Lug has a yellow ring http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/map.dll/image?l=5&x=2359935&y=5031025&cx=2359935& cy=5031025&w=640&h=410

>From what I have seen History is clouded by the politics of the writer and "Now" it is he said ,she said. American History is a mess, For the white Man" Indians" were the bad guys and for the French it was the English who were the bad guys and visa-versa. We can only read all we can and draw our own conclusions keeping in mind our own beliefs. There were so many conflicts between different nationalities that a true account will never be really true due to the bias of each person involved. Our parents came to this country for many number of reasons, most related to a better life, for them selves and offspring's. I am truly happy mine did, but as I did not grow up in a Croatian environment , I lost all close ties to my heritage and it is much too late but am giving a shot. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Marinkovich" <djedo@2z.net> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia

The Way I heard it was, the Zumbercani owned their own land in zadrugas, or, comunes each with their own family names. They spoke their own language in their church and were resented by the serfs. During the peasants revolt there was some dought as to which way the zumbercani would go. They went on the side of the bans and Matija Gubec was hung from the linden tree that is now known as Gubceva Lipa in Zagreb. That probably had a lot to do with the things that the Ustasi did there during the war. This all by wourd of mouth. Donald Marinkovich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia > Hello Nick, > Yes tapes are great, When I compiled the history book of Attica, MI, And > interviewed my mother about the genealogy, years ago, I used a video > camera and it payed off big time, even if the interviewee was not accurate > in the account, it helped find the correct information. I wish someone > would have interviewed my grandparents.......would have saved years of > research and probably would have gave us some veryinteresting stories. > CENSUS records, Just can't seem to get a straight answer on > them............ I have seen in my search Croatian authors reffer to them > and use data from them, but to there location and who as access to > them.............. I think its a secret.;-) Its hard to believe know one > knows about them........ > The Feudal System and the Military border information is very > Interesting... I still have some questions on this military border and the > Feudal System yet, but will have to do some reading before I get back to > the list. > > Thank You > Best regards > Kurt > > nharamija <nharamija@wowway.com> wrote: Kurt you are right when you say > the online statistics are shooting way up. > No body said Genealogy was easy and when people move even a short distance > away you will have trouble finding them even here. > You should have a tape recorder so you can transcribe the information. > Some > time memory does get foggy but you can pick up clues from the tapes long > after the interview. In my case not possible as I learned this way too > late. > I also would like to know where the census's are and how to access them. > Nick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kurt McCrary" > > Thank You Robert and list, > By the way where are the Croatian Census's located? > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a PS3 game guru. > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! > Games. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Kurt you are right when you say the online statistics are shooting way up. No body said Genealogy was easy and when people move even a short distance away you will have trouble finding them even here. You should have a tape recorder so you can transcribe the information. Some time memory does get foggy but you can pick up clues from the tapes long after the interview. In my case not possible as I learned this way too late. I also would like to know where the census's are and how to access them. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> Thank You Robert and list, By the way where are the Croatian Census's located?

Sarah; The records will be in the archives at the NARA.and the county where he applied. Go to:( http://aad.archives.gov/aad/ ) and at the top of the page there is contact us and you can e-mail them for more information. Good luck and God Bless. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Mueller" <sarmar1@msn.com> We learned recently that my grandfather filed his Declaration of Intention to become a citizen in Helena, Montana in 1913, but never completed the process to become a citizen. Does anyone have any idea if "Intent" papers were retained locally or nationally (at the national archive in D.C.) if a Petition was never filed? Sarah

While true there was a 5 year limit before the intention papers expired, not everyone followed the rules. I requested the papers from a midwest location (LaPorte, IN) and they found nothing. I knew they were there and asked the clerk to check more carefully. She found them and said she only looked five years back the first time. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "william herman" <waherman61@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Researching Bolanca, Makilja (Primosten),Basetich (location unknown) Hrska, Gervais,Pittle (Severin na Kupi, Gorski Kotar) > Sarah I know in Wisconsin the > Declaration of Intention and the 2nd paper are both > kept. In Wisconsin the papers were filled out at the > county courthouse and they are now at Area Research > Centers around the state. There are about 13 Area > Research Centers in Wisconsin usually at a state > college campus. I have found in some cases only the > first papers on file, people never completed the > process to become a citizen. I have found in some > cases people filled out a declaration of intention > twice because the time limit ran out. I think the > declaration of intention was only good for 5 years. It > would seem like a lot of trouble to go through the > declaration of intentions and throw away the people > that didn't file the 2nd paper. You didn't have to > file the 1st and 2nd paper in the same county so the > county wouldn't know who filled the 2nd paper. > > Bill H. > --- Sarah Mueller <sarmar1@msn.com> wrote: > >> We learned recently that my grandfather filed his >> Declaration of Intention to become a citizen in >> Helena, Montana in 1913, but never completed the >> process to become a citizen. Does anyone have any >> idea if "Intent" papers were retained locally or >> nationally (at the national archive in D.C.) if a >> Petition was never filed? >> >> Sarah >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Kurt, Anyone in the extended Austro-Hungarian (Hapsburg) Empire (up to WWI when the version of what became Yugoslavia was established including Croatia) someone coming to the US from Croatia would general claim to be Austrian. Census enumerators have often claimed their language was German (because they were from Austria) when I know for certain mine read & wrote Italian (being from the Dalmatian area) and probably understood Croatian but didn't know much German. Records in this area were generally all in Italian until around 1860s/1870s when Croatain was finally adopted. But note I've found some early records in Glagolytic, some church records in Latin, a few records can be found in French (early 1800s) and German (some Austrian military records from the Croatian area). Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" <kurtmccrary@yahoo.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Feudal system in Croatia Thank You Robert and list, You have explained it well. I suppose, I should have given a date and a area in my query, but didn't realize that it would have mattered..........In regards to the Feudal system, Now I know that it does matter in some regards. And thats one of the reasons I am here........to learn. Seems the rules of the Fuedal system varied by location, and probably by the lord....Also seems to have been somewhat archaic and its longevity probably prolonged by the Turkish war......... Yes, assimilation is very interesting and it happened both ways. Seems most everyone was afraid to lose there heritage.........while others just melted. I suppose economics played a key role either way. I know it happened in my family in Croatia The US is the melting but Croatia certainly did some melting. I had a great Uncle that was German Ethnicity both mother and father and grew up only a couple miles from a village were one of my grandfathers lived in Croatia , My great Uncle claimed to be Croatian, only knew how to read and write Croatian and always sang Croatian songs. He was fully assimilated..........While his cousin my grandfather was a non assimilated, German,He could read and write Croatian but his main Language and his ancestry was always German. My grandmother a Croatian claimed to be German at Ellis island, I guess since she married one she thought she became one.............. ;-) In the US so many of us are "mutts, some people have know Idea" that they have lost most of there roots..... Its funny when I am asked about my nationality, I have to ask them how much time they have and which side the would like to know about...;-) I don't know the statistics on interest in Genealogy research, but with the computer age upon us and on line records it must have shot way up. By the way where are the Croatian Census's located? Thank Again Best regards Kurt Robert Jerin <rjerin26@yahoo.com> wrote: Kurt, I had to think a bit more about this.... The difference was that the part of Croatia you mentioned had very rich farmland and attracted people from other parts of Croatia as well as Bohemia and Slovakia. I helped a man named CINDRICH once and was surprised that his GF came from Nova Petrovo Selo in the Posavina region.... I told him this surprised me as CINDRIC is from around Slunj/Cetingrad.... when he joined us for my tour last year he brought along a document ... a family tree of sorts... and indicated that his GGF was from Slunj.... so people did move to certain areas that were productive... not unlike your family who came to America to work in the mines and factories... they went wherever there was work... but did not go to places where they could not earn a good living... this was the case with the village of my GF, lovely vineyards, but not much opportunity for nova dosli (new comers) An area across the Kupa River from the place my GF was from, known as Zumberak supplied numerous immigrants in Cleveland, Chicago and the UP of Mich and the Iron Range in MN... but not many had moved into Zumberak... at least in the last several hundred years... but around 1400 to 1500 people of German background had gone to Zumberak to work as rudari... miners ! So thinking about our exchange of info I (we) need to keep in mind conditions at various times... when we speak about immigration and emigration. My GFs village may have seen the largest inward migration when the Frankopans and Zrinskis ruled the area as they brought skilled craftsmen with them to Ozalj area, some from the coastal areas of Croatia and some from Tyrol.... Interesting that people have been arriving in Croatia for centuries with many assimilating becoming Croatians and some not assimilating Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: Hello Robert, I was referring to Croatia during the 1800's specifically. But people in Europe in general moved around allot. Even for more specifically I was talking about the area of Croatia known as Serbian: Srem (Cyrillic: Ñðåì), Croatian: Srijem in my case District of Vukovar. In the church records you can see many people moving to the towns in this area from different villages miles away, certainly some coming from different countries? or locations in Hungary. I am surprised it wasn't like that especially in your investigations, I assumed it was like that all over Croatia. Even in my villages in Germany it was like that .................Not including the Migration eriods........So maybe the definition of "Allot needs to be interpreted better.........Gee I don't know what to say....;-) I n Germany in one of my towns you could leave but if you returned you had to pay to get back in. No Joke..............Many people did it. Robert Jerin wrote: Interesting! I have found in the church records that I have seen that people did not move around a lot in those days, but this may have been different from place to place. Example my family had lived in the same village from around 1700 until today! It was my grandfather and 2 of his brothers who left around 1905 that changed this. They say we Americans change home on average every 4 years... that was true in my case unitl about 1986 and since then we have lived in the same home.... Robert Kurt McCrary wrote: People moved around allot in those days. How did you acquire a place to farm? Were there vacant farms one could ask the Lord to farm? If you were already a serf on a farm in 1848 and the Feudal System was abolished were you given the land you were farming for your self or did you purchase it from the Lord or the new government? How did they split up the lands or distribute the property? My grandfather came to the US from Croatia in 1910 and worked in Steel mills in Pa. briefly, then came to Michigan to become a sugar beat share cropper in Michigan's thumb. I assume share cropping was allot like what happened in Croatia to the farmers, after the end of the feudal system. Natalie Prodan wrote: Correct! Serfdom, labor system under which most European agricultural workers lived during the Middle Ages. Legally bound to reside and labor on the land owned by their lord. Serfdom began in the 900s and was at its peak in the 1100s and 1200s. The system gradually ended in western Europe during the 1400s and 1500s, but it lasted much longer in eastern Europe, persisting until the mid-1800s in Russia. The serfs comprised the vast majority of the population of medieval Europe and worked to feed themselves, their superiors, and the people of the towns and the church. Although the serfs were not slaves, they were not really free. They could not leave the manor-that is, the land owned by their lord. They were obligated to provide physical labor as well as to pay taxes and other obligations. Serfs were at the bottom of the European system of social, political, and economic relations known as Seignorialism. All land on the manor was owned by its lord. Serfs and their families were allowed to farm some of the land on the manor to support themselves; this was sufficient for the more prosperous serfs to feed a family and make the various payments to their lord. Serfs were taxed on the produce and profits of their holdings. In addition, they had to devote a fair amount of time and labor to working the lord's demesne land, the section of the manor kept directly under the lord's control and not used by other tenants. On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Estelle, serf was not a slave or a servant. He had use of the land and paid a specified part of the fruit to the feudal lord who took care of the administration and defense. Some similarity to our tax payments. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Sarah, We were able to get my great great grandfathers and grandfathers Declaration of Intention through the County in which they were filed. I live in Minnesota. Hopefully, this is what they do in Montana. Patty -----Original Message----- From: croatia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:croatia-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Sarah Mueller Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 10:49 PM To: CROATIA-L_rootsweb_com Subject: [CROATIA] Researching Bolanca, Makilja (Primosten),Basetich (location unknown) Hrska, Gervais,Pittle (Severin na Kupi, Gorski Kotar) We learned recently that my grandfather filed his Declaration of Intention to become a citizen in Helena, Montana in 1913, but never completed the process to become a citizen. Does anyone have any idea if "Intent" papers were retained locally or nationally (at the national archive in D.C.) if a Petition was never filed? Sarah ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

Hello Dr. Former, This very Interesting. The Vukovar that you are talking about must be The District or Estate of Vukovar as on this website it states: "The Franciscans and people from Olovo in Bosnia came to the liberated Ilok in 1688. Following the Turkish occupancy all liberated lands in Slavonia and Srijem that were considered as the Austrian Emperor's property. Thus Emperor Leopold I. awarded several estates between Danube and Sava rivers as well as the castle in Ilok to Livio Odescalchi, a nephew of the Pope Innocent XI., for his merits in battles against the Turks. About 50 inhabited houses remained in Vukovar when it was liberated in 1687 by the Christian armies. Beside the most numerous and indigenous Croatian population and so many newcomers were moving into the ravaged region between these some Orthodox Serbs that settled in a few deserted villages. The Empire's administration needed more labor to reside in the liberated area so a considerable number of Germans, Hungarians, Jews, Ruthenians and Slovaks had settled here too." http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/vukov.html I would really like to know where you found the information on Vukovar "3000 inhabitants, 200 houses" this is some of the information I was looking for. This would mean that the Historians were accurate when the state the area was deopulated. Thank You Best regards Kurt Tat417761@cs.com wrote: Kurt, Military Border was not under Ban's jurisdiction. It was not part of "banska Hrvatska" and it was a long struggle to have it returned to its mother country. The whole area was under military jurisdiction from Vienna. The rules on the estates varied from one to the other and of course over time. I believe in the Middle Ages the land belonged to the king. The movement of people was between the cities. In the villages, as Robert pointed out, people stayed for centuries. Nationality was not emphasized until 19th century. Vukovar was reported to have had cca 3000 inhabitants, 200 houses at the end of the Turkish rule. dr Former. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

Peg, I suspect in the early 1900s in Croatia apprenticeship was only slightly better than in the early days of the US when apprentices were "bound servants" which got food & board and almost no pay and required to serve for a number of years doing whatever the master wanted. The master was required to train him in the trade. His labor was in exchange for his training so he paid for his education, he wasn't given it. After a good number of years he could be certified as "journeyman" and good enough to hire himself out for decent pay. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peg.Erbes" <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> To: <croatia@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA] Croatia Feudal System Exception in the Military Border > Tatjana: Fascinating stuff! Several years ago someone in Croatia > sent me a copy of my grandfather's "graduation" from his > apprenticeship in Djakova in 1908. He was a carpenter. I realize > this is out the period under discussion, but do you think this type > of education was expensive then? He had wanted to pursue his > education (or so the story goes) but the local priest said no, he was > to be a craftsman. This was his excuse for rejecting the church and > might have been understandable if it wasn't for the fact that someone > cared enough to have paid for this education. (He was born in 1893 > and his father was dead.) > > Thanks, > > Peg > > > On Apr 2, 2007, at 1:38 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: > >> Hi, I do not think there is such an entity as a "free peasant". >> Peasant is >> occupation, not the legal description of the person. >> Until not long ago farming required a large number of people to >> produce the >> necessary food. So, of course, peasants (people doing farm work) >> were quite >> numerous. they were not just moving around as factory worker may. >> You plant, you >> wait for food to grow. No paycheck. And you do not just arrive in >> village: >> "here I am" and start planting. Where are you going to sleep, where >> are your >> tools etc? >> Craftsmen and artisans would settle where they were needed. Their >> education >> was rigorously prescribed and rather expensive. They had to have >> exams and >> license. >> They were the ones who usually absorbed the athnicity of their new >> home. >> The German farmers who were brought to Slavonia, came because after >> the Turks >> left, the land was depopulated. They came in groups with animals >> etc. They >> knew how to run a farm, probably younger children who did not >> inherit their >> family's land. >> when I mentioned the city of Vukovar, this is the city. Those >> cities were not >> districts. They had walls to protect them and doors which were >> locked in the >> evening. When you travel in Europe you see remnants of those walls. >> In Rome >> the doors keep their old names, though they had to make them larger >> for modern >> traffic. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Kurt, Several points of information to add to this stew: 1) The officers (both commissioned and non-commissioned) of the "border guard" were almost all Austrian ("of German extraction" as you say). The Austrians also had some military posts along the Dalmation coast (and I'm sure other places) outside this military border area. I have seen in some Split records I've checked a limited amount of intermarriage between these "Germans" and the local population as one would expect. So there's a possibility your "German" ancestor was in the military although I suspect the chances were less likely of intermarriage with the peasant farmers in the military border area. 2) The church records in the 1700s in some of the Dalmatian islands were all kept in Italian with some Glagolytic records earlier. The peasant farmers were all designated in Italian as "rustics" or "pastorals" or "farmers" if their "occupations" were noted at all. The village records (also in Italian) just in from Split only go back to around 1800. There they were also called "rustics" or "illiterate rustics." They were also all farmers but I think the vocabulary used depended more on the decision of the local priest than on the individuals recorded. Back then they were nearly all subsitance farmers in most small Croatian villages. 3) "Half the men" meant that half males of all the families settled on the farmland in the military border area had to attend training and be available for sudden call up. The Austrians also used men from these border units to fill out their armies in some of the continental campaigns. Indeed, when Napolean's French army marched down the Dalmatian coast around 1805/06 and took it from the Austrians and made it part of the French Empire briefly (until he lost it all and had to give it back only a few years later) he took some of the militsary border units he had just conquered from the Austrians and swapped them into his French army. If I remember correctly without checking, these Croatians were given a good amount of the credit for saving Marshal Fey's army from defeat at Berenzina(sp?). 4) US Naturalization could occur via any level of court jurisdiction (county, state, federal) so you may have to check several different courts in the same location depending. Jim

Hello Nick, Yes tapes are great, When I compiled the history book of Attica, MI, And interviewed my mother about the genealogy, years ago, I used a video camera and it payed off big time, even if the interviewee was not accurate in the account, it helped find the correct information. I wish someone would have interviewed my grandparents.......would have saved years of research and probably would have gave us some veryinteresting stories. CENSUS records, Just can't seem to get a straight answer on them............ I have seen in my search Croatian authors reffer to them and use data from them, but to there location and who as access to them.............. I think its a secret.;-) Its hard to believe know one knows about them........ The Feudal System and the Military border information is very Interesting... I still have some questions on this military border and the Feudal System yet, but will have to do some reading before I get back to the list. Thank You Best regards Kurt nharamija <nharamija@wowway.com> wrote: Kurt you are right when you say the online statistics are shooting way up. No body said Genealogy was easy and when people move even a short distance away you will have trouble finding them even here. You should have a tape recorder so you can transcribe the information. Some time memory does get foggy but you can pick up clues from the tapes long after the interview. In my case not possible as I learned this way too late. I also would like to know where the census's are and how to access them. Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt McCrary" Thank You Robert and list, By the way where are the Croatian Census's located? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

Not sure if this was in reply to my post or not. However there were such people as "freeman". Under the medieval feudal system, an individual differentiated from a villein, a serf tied to the land. Freeman is very different than the classification of a peasant and that of a serf. On Apr 2, 2007, at 1:38 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: > Hi, I do not think there is such an entity as a "free peasant". > Peasant is > occupation, not the legal description of the person. > Until not long ago farming required a large number of people to > produce the > necessary food. So, of course, peasants (people doing farm work) > were quite > numerous. they were not just moving around as factory worker may. > You plant, you > wait for food to grow. No paycheck. And you do not just arrive in > village: > "here I am" and start planting. Where are you going to sleep, where > are your > tools etc? > Craftsmen and artisans would settle where they were needed. Their > education > was rigorously prescribed and rather expensive. They had to have > exams and > license. > They were the ones who usually absorbed the athnicity of their new > home. > The German farmers who were brought to Slavonia, came because after > the Turks > left, the land was depopulated. They came in groups with animals > etc. They > knew how to run a farm, probably younger children who did not > inherit their > family's land. > when I mentioned the city of Vukovar, this is the city. Those > cities were not > districts. They had walls to protect them and doors which were > locked in the > evening. When you travel in Europe you see remnants of those walls. > In Rome > the doors keep their old names, though they had to make them larger > for modern > traffic. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tatjana: Fascinating stuff! Several years ago someone in Croatia sent me a copy of my grandfather's "graduation" from his apprenticeship in Djakova in 1908. He was a carpenter. I realize this is out the period under discussion, but do you think this type of education was expensive then? He had wanted to pursue his education (or so the story goes) but the local priest said no, he was to be a craftsman. This was his excuse for rejecting the church and might have been understandable if it wasn't for the fact that someone cared enough to have paid for this education. (He was born in 1893 and his father was dead.) Thanks, Peg On Apr 2, 2007, at 1:38 AM, Tat417761@cs.com wrote: > Hi, I do not think there is such an entity as a "free peasant". > Peasant is > occupation, not the legal description of the person. > Until not long ago farming required a large number of people to > produce the > necessary food. So, of course, peasants (people doing farm work) > were quite > numerous. they were not just moving around as factory worker may. > You plant, you > wait for food to grow. No paycheck. And you do not just arrive in > village: > "here I am" and start planting. Where are you going to sleep, where > are your > tools etc? > Craftsmen and artisans would settle where they were needed. Their > education > was rigorously prescribed and rather expensive. They had to have > exams and > license. > They were the ones who usually absorbed the athnicity of their new > home. > The German farmers who were brought to Slavonia, came because after > the Turks > left, the land was depopulated. They came in groups with animals > etc. They > knew how to run a farm, probably younger children who did not > inherit their > family's land. > when I mentioned the city of Vukovar, this is the city. Those > cities were not > districts. They had walls to protect them and doors which were > locked in the > evening. When you travel in Europe you see remnants of those walls. > In Rome > the doors keep their old names, though they had to make them larger > for modern > traffic. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CROATIA- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Robert, Thanks for the map of the Militargrenze. Unfortunately the typeface is too small for me to tell if my grandfather's village of Crni Lug or the town of Delnice was in it. Any help? Hummer Ples"e On Apr 1, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Robert Jerin wrote: > But the Military Borderland (Militärgrenze) also included parts of the > area around Pakrac and also into Slavonia and the Banat which has good > farmland... as well the Uskok who where pirates employed by the > Austrians to raid Turkish ships on the Adriatic and later moving to > Zumberak had special privilages ...but I don't know if the same rules > about peasant ownership applied as it did in the Lika region. I have > seen RC parish records for Udbina (Lika region) and every man was > listed as granièari into the late 1800s.... granièari = border guard > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Militargrenze.jpg > > Robert > > James Castellan <james.castellan@alumni.brown.edu> wrote: > Re: Feudal system and land ownership in Croatia. > > The Austrian "military border" of Croatia established in 1522 (and > technically lasted until 1881) was a special exception in two ways: > 1) direct control from Viena > 2) the peasants had title to their land. > > Title to the land was the motivation that kept them anchored there on > land > that wasn't generally the best for farming with the obligation that > half the > males had to serve in the "border guard" that could be called out at > any > time to oppose the invading Turks. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > To learn about my October 2007 Heritage and History tour of Croatia > http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/jerin2007.pdf > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sarah I know in Wisconsin the Declaration of Intention and the 2nd paper are both kept. In Wisconsin the papers were filled out at the county courthouse and they are now at Area Research Centers around the state. There are about 13 Area Research Centers in Wisconsin usually at a state college campus. I have found in some cases only the first papers on file, people never completed the process to become a citizen. I have found in some cases people filled out a declaration of intention twice because the time limit ran out. I think the declaration of intention was only good for 5 years. It would seem like a lot of trouble to go through the declaration of intentions and throw away the people that didn't file the 2nd paper. You didn't have to file the 1st and 2nd paper in the same county so the county wouldn't know who filled the 2nd paper. Bill H. --- Sarah Mueller <sarmar1@msn.com> wrote: > We learned recently that my grandfather filed his > Declaration of Intention to become a citizen in > Helena, Montana in 1913, but never completed the > process to become a citizen. Does anyone have any > idea if "Intent" papers were retained locally or > nationally (at the national archive in D.C.) if a > Petition was never filed? > > Sarah > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to CROATIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather