Marie: I have a Lucija Giurascic (sp.???) who was born sometime early enough to have a grandchild, named after her in 1812 (her name was Lucija Kulis~). Lucija, the younger, was born in Mrcine, Gruda, Croatia; her parents were Baldo Kulis~ and Marija Hendic'. Lucija, the elder's, husband was Mihovil Kulis~. I'm not at all clear about the last name spelling since there is only one record I have found it on. Perhaps there's a connection? Patty Milich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marie ." <m4uand172u@hotmail.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Guiranovich/Giuranovich > Hi > I have a Mathieu Guiranovich who was born about 1791, in Rugusa Dalmatia > Austria, per his death certificate dated 1892. Which means best I can tell > is Croatia. > > I also found a Guiranovich who died in Triest 09/13/1833, per a web search. > > In researching this surname I have come across several different spellings; > Guiranovich and Giuranovich and I am not sure if either of these two > spellings are correct. Since Mathieu came to America before 1850 and the > French or Spanish may have spelled it differently back then when he arrived > in America. > Can anyone tell me how to go about ordering a birth certificate for 1791 for > the above area. > Thank You, > Marie > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >

Hi guys I just wanted to share with you what a great night I had tonight. 26 years ago I joined a group of young people who formed a group called Mladez at our local Croatian club and we did the traditional croation folk dancing. We were the original ones to start at our club and since then there have been many more to join and continue over the years. Tonight we had a reunion and boy what a reunion is was. It was so good to see these people again. We also had the original band which used to play each Saturday at our Club who have wonderful voices. It brought back so many memories. They also put on a floor show with the latest Mladez who preformed the same dances we did so many years ago. After the floor show all the original Mladez were invited up to dance the same dance and boy we didnt forget. It was a great night with alot of dancing and laughing etc and we've taken a video so we can all have a copy to remember our night. I justed wanted to share my night with you all! . Only one thing I know when I wake up in the morning this poor old body is not going to feel too well. I used muscles that I forgot I had. Anyway good night all. PS: If you've never been to a Croatian club for a night out make sure you try and make it, we do know how to have a good time and our songs are the most beautiful you will hear in the world. Mary Lawrie

I have read these posts on double surnames with great interest. My father (Martinic) was born on the island of Brac in Dalmatia. While researching his mother's family from the town of Milna I have come across many of them. (note: the church records are all written in Italian and the names are in Italian form) For example, I have ancestors named Bonasich Prati. The Bonasich/Bonacic family has at least 3 different double surname forms. These appear to be of the type where a name has been added to distinguish branches of the family. This makes even more sense when you can actually get a feel of how many people are named Bonasich in a town of only a few hundred people. "Intermarriage", such as marrying someone from a neighboring town was relatively rare. There is, though, another possible explanation. Old timers in my family have told me the Martinich family was part of the Carstulovich/Krstulovic clan. This is certainly borne out by the frequency of Carstulovich double surnames in the towns of Milna and Bobovisca. Does any one know more of Croatian clans and clan names. Thanks, Don Martinich >I read Frank's explanation of hyphenated surnames with great interest. My >Hogac' line gets longer and longer as I move back in time, mutating into >Ivoc-Hogac, and even earlier, Norsic-Ivoc-Hogac. And to make it even more >fun, they keep moving around the order of the surnames (even with the same >couple). I can only hope as I move from the 1800s to the 1700s (the >microfilms exist, they are just very difficult to read) that we don't move >to quadruple or quintuple names. LOL >

Mary, thanks for sharing the joy of Croatian heritage with me. I recently joined this site because of my deep interest in Croatian geneology and culture. My grandmother--maiden name Ann Srsen--came from Gruda in Dalmatia. She lived in the Bronx, New York until her death in her 90s. Unfortunately I was too young at her time to gather any personal information from her about her youth and family in Croatia. So here I am doing research on the internet. Thanks again. Bob Morsut PS "Morsut" is the Furlan surname of her husband and my grandfather.. The Furlans are an ethnic minority primarily in northern Italy. Mary <marylawrie@optusnet.com.au> wrote: Hi guys I just wanted to share with you what a great night I had tonight. 26 years ago I joined a group of young people who formed a group called Mladez at our local Croatian club and we did the traditional croation folk dancing. We were the original ones to start at our club and since then there have been many more to join and continue over the years. Tonight we had a reunion and boy what a reunion is was. It was so good to see these people again. We also had the original band which used to play each Saturday at our Club who have wonderful voices. It brought back so many memories. They also put on a floor show with the latest Mladez who preformed the same dances we did so many years ago. After the floor show all the original Mladez were invited up to dance the same dance and boy we didnt forget. It was a great night with alot of dancing and laughing etc and we've taken a video so we can all have a copy to remember our night. I justed wanted to share my night with you all! . Only one thing I know when I wake up in the morning this poor old body is not going to feel too well. I used muscles that I forgot I had. Anyway good night all. PS: If you've never been to a Croatian club for a night out make sure you try and make it, we do know how to have a good time and our songs are the most beautiful you will hear in the world. Mary Lawrie --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals.

I read Frank's explanation of hyphenated surnames with great interest. My Hogac' line gets longer and longer as I move back in time, mutating into Ivoc-Hogac, and even earlier, Norsic-Ivoc-Hogac. And to make it even more fun, they keep moving around the order of the surnames (even with the same couple). I can only hope as I move from the 1800s to the 1700s (the microfilms exist, they are just very difficult to read) that we don't move to quadruple or quintuple names. LOL

thanks again, Frank. I will keep all this in mind. My research right now is only in the 1800s (1850-1890s). I will proceed with caution! Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 4:46 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] double surnames > > > "Patty M." wrote: > > > > thanks, Frank. You're always such a help. I frankly don't remember any > > discussion on double surnames for Croatia, but I trust you are correct. > > > > Patty > > In villages throughout Europe, where there were several or more same > surname bearers with the same first names, a system of binomes/binames > (a.k.a. ' aliases ') evolved. > These double surnames were separated by a hyphen (-) > Analogous to a married American woman using her her marrried and maiden > names together and separated by a hyphen. > > Usually a nickname or ' alias ' was given the second surname bearer to > distinguish him from the first (original) surname bearer. > The name left of hyphen was the original surname and one to right > was the alias, but not always. > If another same surname with the same first name was born in village or > moved there ? then this procedure needed to be repeated to differeniate > these multiple surname bearers. > > Over time some binames became branch surnames. > Sometimes the names were reversed with the names exchanged from one > side to the other. > And sometimes the surname bearers were not related. > Some such names were recycled over the following generations in a > village due to marriages. > In addition, some surname bearers used one surname when resident in > their village of origin and another surname when traveling away from > village. > Very confusing. > > Binames (nicknames) , or surnames were rare throughout Europe > (800-1250 A.D.), and most names recorded during this period bear > only a given name. > The few individuals recorded with a biname bore a patronymic, formed > from the father's first name. > Between 1250-1526 Christian and saint's names became the standard. > > Binames or surnames could include patronymics - those derived from > the Christian name or profession of the father - or also the name > of the surname town of origin or residence. > > > Why the 1526 cutoff ? > This is the year that Croatia and Hungary fell to the Turks at the > Battle of Mohács, Hungary. >

Pj650@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Listers: > > Well I've only had a little luck on my Rodinis/Fucich Family so I thought I'd > branch out and see what comes up. Is anyone researching the BRYUSTOCHE > surname. I found my Uncle Steve Rodinis' baptismal certificate. He was > baptized on March 7, 1929 at St. Stephen's Church, Brooklyn, NY. His > sponsors are listed as Michael BILLOS and Helen BRYUSTOCHE. I'm hoping these > people are somehow related. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Also, is there a aite for Croatian telephone directories. I know there are 9 > Rodinis' listed in Cres, thought I might try a mass mailing. > > Thanks, > Pat Croatian telephone directory 5 surname Rodinis are listed under otok Cres. 1 surname is listed under otoke Mali Los^inj. 2 surnames are listed under Lubenice. Lubenice is also located 101 miles SW of Zagreb in Rijeka area on otok (island) Cres. Following WW 1, Italy took for itself the southwestern portion of duchy of Carniola, the county of Gorizia-Gradisca, the margraviate of Istria, the town of Trieste, the southern portion of the county of Tyrol, city of Zadar (C)/Zara (I) (formerly part of the Kingdom of Dalmatia), and the islands of Cres (C)/Cherso (I), Los^inj (C)/Lusino (I), and Lastovo (C)/Lagosta (I), as well as former city of Rijeka (C) /Fiume (I) The LDS-Mormons have filmed the R.C. metrical books (births, marriages, deaths) (1571-1902) for Cherso, Küstenland, Austria; later Cherso, Pola, Italy; now Cres, Croatia. Text in Italian and Croatian. Some early documents in Glagolitic script. film # 2084718-2084720 2084734-2084740 These microfilm reels are available for rental and viewing at any Family History Center (FHC) worldwide. 90% of patrons are non-Mormons doing surname research. LDS - Mormon FHCs - LOCATIONS http://www.familysearch.org/Search/searchfhc2.asp If you are located near one of 12 regional NARA sites or the Main Archives in Washnigton, D.C. you could review the 1930 U.S. Census enumeration microfilms for Brooklyn, NY for the surnames. The online Croatian telephone directory (telefonski imenik HR-T) can be tricky to use because Croatian uses special diacritic characters for spellings of words. [below explains the letters c, but there are an additional 6 letters] Two Croatian characters (letters) " c " employ diacritics (i.e. caret, caron, hac^ek, strés^ica, etc.) v c pronounced as " ch " in English word ch-urch. c' pronounced as " ch " in English word ch-eap. (c pronounced as " ts " in English word tse-tse) For online Croatian telephone directories. Go to my Croatia Web site. http://rootsweb.com/~hrvwgw/ ---------------------------- Welcome to the CroatiaGenWeb scroll down to => Croatia Links, at right of Croatian flag Click item 14 from bottom on the menu: Croatian Telephone Directory Click on the [english] at top of page By area code and by z^upanija (county) (20) Scroll to area code 051 Primorsko-goranska z^upanija (county) For C^ use ASCII ] For c^ use ASCII ~ For c' use ASCII } For z^ use ASCII ` For s^ use ASCII { For S^ use ASCII [ Enter Rodinis under the subscriber's name. (Naziv pretplatanika) (Rodinis has no diacritic letters in the name) Click Query. (upit) You will get a listing of 8 surnmes Rodinis. Surname, then given name (alpha order) street address, town. => Next

Hi Listers: Well I've only had a little luck on my Rodinis/Fucich Family so I thought I'd branch out and see what comes up. Is anyone researching the BRYUSTOCHE surname. I found my Uncle Steve Rodinis' baptismal certificate. He was baptized on March 7, 1929 at St. Stephen's Church, Brooklyn, NY. His sponsors are listed as Michael BILLOS and Helen BRYUSTOCHE. I'm hoping these people are somehow related. Any help would be appreciated. Also, is there a aite for Croatian telephone directories. I know there are 9 Rodinis' listed in Cres, thought I might try a mass mailing. Thanks, Pat

Bob Morsut wrote: > > I take great pride and have a consuming interest in my partially Croatian roots. My grandmother, Anna Srsen was born and raised in Grude in the Dalmation region of Croatia. She was a kind, compassionate and deeply loving woman of peasant origin and strength. In the United States, she married Elias E. Morsut, ethnically a Furlan from northern Italy. Till their death in the 1950s and 1960s, they lived in the Bronx borough of New York City. They had eight children: Elias Jr., Angelo, Luke, Edward, Charles, Mark, Ann and Madeline. I am thew son of Elias Jr., and one of many grandchildren Ann and Elias had. And I would be be interested in communicating with anyone who has any knowledge of the Srsen family in Grude. > > Robert K. Morsut, 541 Willow Way, Lindenhurst, Illinois, USA. For over 450 years , Austria and Italy traded rule of parts the Dalmacija region of Croatia. When the Árpád dynasty (Hungarian) became extinct, the Croatians elected a Neapolitan (Napoli) prince Ladislas, king of Croatia (1409) and he sold Venice his rights to all of Dalmatia. By 1420 Venice controlled all of Dalmatia except Dubrovnik. The Republic of Venice ceased to exist in 1797. Gruda/Grudi is located 256 miles SSE of Zagreb in the Dubrovnik (Gruz) region of Dalmacija. The surname Srs^en is associated with Gruda. The first Srsen surname bearer goes back to the 15th century. Today, the Croatian telephone directory lists 170 surname Srs^en bearers under Dubrovnik and only 1 surname Srs^en under Gruda.

JBalen1234@aol.com wrote: > > Hi all, > Some of the few records I have for Balen surname from area of Lovinac and > Sveti Rok, contains some addresses. For example.. SvR 200, or SvR 149. > A very few, just say Balenska Plana, no numbers. > Could this be a small settlement of Balen's? > Time frame is 1890's to early 1900's > > Thanks for any help > Judy Sveti Rok is now located in Lic^ko-senjska county. No surname Balen was listed under Lovinac. But, the Croatian telephone directory listed 7 surname Balen under Sveti Rok. addresses SvR 167 SvR 241 SvR 240 SvR 231 SvR 230 SvR 194 If a village or settlement was small enough it would have no official streets and just house numbers were used for addresses. A Frank Pryor from country of New Zealand had lived in Sveti Rok a number of years and he may know ? His email address below may be still valid. Frank.Pryor@xtra.co.nz

"Patty M." wrote: > > thanks, Frank. You're always such a help. I frankly don't remember any > discussion on double surnames for Croatia, but I trust you are correct. > > Patty In villages throughout Europe, where there were several or more same surname bearers with the same first names, a system of binomes/binames (a.k.a. ' aliases ') evolved. These double surnames were separated by a hyphen (-) Analogous to a married American woman using her her marrried and maiden names together and separated by a hyphen. Usually a nickname or ' alias ' was given the second surname bearer to distinguish him from the first (original) surname bearer. The name left of hyphen was the original surname and one to right was the alias, but not always. If another same surname with the same first name was born in village or moved there ? then this procedure needed to be repeated to differeniate these multiple surname bearers. Over time some binames became branch surnames. Sometimes the names were reversed with the names exchanged from one side to the other. And sometimes the surname bearers were not related. Some such names were recycled over the following generations in a village due to marriages. In addition, some surname bearers used one surname when resident in their village of origin and another surname when traveling away from village. Very confusing. Binames (nicknames) , or surnames were rare throughout Europe (800-1250 A.D.), and most names recorded during this period bear only a given name. The few individuals recorded with a biname bore a patronymic, formed from the father's first name. Between 1250-1526 Christian and saint's names became the standard. Binames or surnames could include patronymics - those derived from the Christian name or profession of the father - or also the name of the surname town of origin or residence. Why the 1526 cutoff ? This is the year that Croatia and Hungary fell to the Turks at the Battle of Mohács, Hungary.

Hi all, Some of the few records I have for Balen surname from area of Lovinac and Sveti Rok, contains some addresses. For example.. SvR 200, or SvR 149. A very few, just say Balenska Plana, no numbers. Could this be a small settlement of Balen's? Time frame is 1890's to early 1900's Thanks for any help Judy

thanks, Frank. You're always such a help. I frankly don't remember any discussion on double surnames for Croatia, but I trust you are correct. Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] double surnames > > > "Patty M." wrote: > > > > Hello: > > > > Does anyone have any experience with double surnames for one individual? I have been researching records in Dalmation (Konavle Valley) and have come up with a Niko CAR SILVA. I have never heard of double surnames. Niko has the -ov name of his father as a middle name as well, so it's not related to that. On top of that, Silva is a Spanish or Portuguese surname, per my research. I'm quite confused. > > > > Patty > > > I believe binames and 'aliases' have been discussed earlier in this > mailing list. > > In the Rijeka area you can find the double surnames : > Car-Dasovic' > Car-Manestar > Car-Mihec > Car-Pus^ic' > Car-S^tefanac > Car-Slavic^ek > Car-Z^ilic' > > Car-Cattonaro (Italian) > (Italian has no letter K and uses letter C instead. > There may have been an equivalent Croatian surname > spelling K.... as well ?) > > > Zadar has a Car-Grebeldinge. > > > Some otok ? had many double surnames Car listed . > Usually the surname left of the hyphen (-) was the original surname. > Sometimes the two surnames were switched left to right for whatever > the reason. >

Funny you should ask that I was speaking to a girlfriend last night and she was telling me that her family name was a double surname and that her father dropped this first part and kept the last part of it. -----Original Message----- From: Patty M. [mailto:ppmilich@calweb.com] Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 4:25 PM To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [CROATIA-L] double surnames Hello: Does anyone have any experience with double surnames for one individual? I have been researching records in Dalmation (Konavle Valley) and have come up with a Niko CAR SILVA. I have never heard of double surnames. Niko has the -ov name of his father as a middle name as well, so it's not related to that. On top of that, Silva is a Spanish or Portuguese surname, per my research. I'm quite confused. Patty

Yes, a second surname was often used to distinguish different branches of the same family, especially where there were several with the same given name in the same town or area. In my case they appear to have added the surname of the family married into (the wife's family name). > Hello: > > Does anyone have any experience with double surnames for one individual? I have been researching records in Dalmation (Konavle Valley) and have come up with a Niko CAR SILVA. I have never heard of double surnames. Niko has the -ov name of his father as a middle name as well, so it's not related to that. On top of that, Silva is a Spanish or Portuguese surname, per my research. I'm quite confused. > > Patty > >

"Patty M." wrote: > > Hello: > > Does anyone have any experience with double surnames for one individual? I have been researching records in Dalmation (Konavle Valley) and have come up with a Niko CAR SILVA. I have never heard of double surnames. Niko has the -ov name of his father as a middle name as well, so it's not related to that. On top of that, Silva is a Spanish or Portuguese surname, per my research. I'm quite confused. > > Patty I believe binames and 'aliases' have been discussed earlier in this mailing list. In the Rijeka area you can find the double surnames : Car-Dasovic' Car-Manestar Car-Mihec Car-Pus^ic' Car-S^tefanac Car-Slavic^ek Car-Z^ilic' Car-Cattonaro (Italian) (Italian has no letter K and uses letter C instead. There may have been an equivalent Croatian surname spelling K.... as well ?) Zadar has a Car-Grebeldinge. Some otok ? had many double surnames Car listed . Usually the surname left of the hyphen (-) was the original surname. Sometimes the two surnames were switched left to right for whatever the reason.

Hello: Does anyone have any experience with double surnames for one individual? I have been researching records in Dalmation (Konavle Valley) and have come up with a Niko CAR SILVA. I have never heard of double surnames. Niko has the -ov name of his father as a middle name as well, so it's not related to that. On top of that, Silva is a Spanish or Portuguese surname, per my research. I'm quite confused. Patty

I take great pride and have a consuming interest in my partially Croatian roots. My grandmother, Anna Srsen was born and raised in Grude in the Dalmation region of Croatia. She was a kind, compassionate and deeply loving woman of peasant origin and strength. In the United States, she married Elias E. Morsut, ethnically a Furlan from northern Italy. Till their death in the 1950s and 1960s, they lived in the Bronx borough of New York City. They had eight children: Elias Jr., Angelo, Luke, Edward, Charles, Mark, Ann and Madeline. I am thew son of Elias Jr., and one of many grandchildren Ann and Elias had. And I would be be interested in communicating with anyone who has any knowledge of the Srsen family in Grude. Robert K. Morsut, 541 Willow Way, Lindenhurst, Illinois, USA. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals.

DBrodley@aol.com wrote: > > I hope someone can help me, I am looking for information on any contact with > the name Renac, especially that of Branco Renac born in Pitomaca on 8th Feb > 1915. > Thanking you in anticipation > Dave Brodley Email dbrodley@aol.com Pitomac^a is located 60 miles east of Zagreb and between D~urd~evac and Virovitica, and is now in Virovitic^ko z^upanija (county) Then it was in Belovár-Körös megye (county), Hungary. 1915 is late. The LDS-Mormons filmed the metrical books (births, marriages, deaths) (1728-1900) for the Roman Catholic congregation at Pitomaca. Text in Latin and Hungarian. film # 1536654-153685 1536654-1536655 1536691-1536693 2062941-2062942 2120548-2120549 These microfilm reels are available for rental and viewing at any Family History Center (FHC) worldwide. 90% of patrons are non-Mormons doing surname research. LDS - Mormon FHCs - LOCATIONS http://www.familysearch.org/Search/searchfhc2.asp You will need to write the civil registry office (matc^ni ured) for the 1915 records. You will need to write in Croatian and they will reply in Croatian. address : MATIC^NI URED PITOMAC^A 33405 PITOMAC^A HRVATSKA (CROATIA) http://www.pitomaca.hr/index.html

It was supposed to take 8-9 hours - it actually took 11. We left at 7am, arrived 6 pm. There were some 10 minute stops, and one 25 minute stop. The bus travels along the coast as far as Split, then turns inland. There are no hotels within the old walls. We stayed out at Lapad Bay. We stayed at the Hotel Lapad, it was about $50/night for a double with bath. We tried to get rooms at the Hotel Zagreb and Hotel Sumratin (about $45/night), but they were both full. Hotel Lapad includes breakfast - they had tons of German tourists there, and the breakfasts were huge buffets - eggs, sausage, breads, cheeses, cereals, fruit, rolls, etc. The only other place we did the hotel breakfast was Zagreb, where it was bread, ham, cheese, salami, juice, tea/coffee -more like your basic European bread/coffee breakfast, with a slice or two of meat and cheese added. Usually, we went out and scavenged for something tasty for breakfast at the many bakeries in Croatia. There are big American style (expensive) hotels farther out Lapad Bay - easy bus connection to the Pile Gate (entry to the town). There is an internet cafe just outside the gate where the bus stops. Very reasonable rates to send email home (in the range of $1) for a half hour. Lots of restaurants inside the walls. From anywhere along the Placa (main street), go left up stone steps to the first street that runs parallel to the Placa - this is restaurant row, lined with fancy sit down places. There are many less expensive, more casual places, lots of pizza places; many place their menus and prices out on sandwich boards along the Placa. You can get a pizza (enough for 2 people) and 2 beers for $8-10 total, sometimes less. (In Zagreb we found a great pizza place, large pizza and 2 Karlovacko(beers) for 40 kuna (about $5). We lunched there 3 times in 6 days! ----- Original Message ----- From: <PUZEXPRESS@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:39 AM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Trip > Carol, > > How long did it take you to get from Dubrovnik to Zagreb? I assume you took > a bus? Do you have a recommendation for a place to stay in Dubrovnik? > > Dick Puz > > ______________________________