Dr. Prpic may have a point in his observation that the people came to get money and return home. My gr. grand father Gajo stated on the manifest in Feb of 1913 that he had been in the USA in from 02/04 and he was headed to Lebanon Pa. to see a brother in-law whose name I can't make out. It drives me crazy that I can't make out the name or find a manifest for Gajo coming in about 1902 hence my question about searching the Ellis data base by last address to see if his name was butchered in the transcribing. My grand father Stojsa said he came here so he could own land (which he did own a beautiful farm) and Mom said she saw a letter as a child, in a foreign language, from his parents asking him to come home, because he was the eldest and it included some strange currency.

Merna Robison wrote: > > My grandfather was baptised at SV ROKA in > Virovitica.On the certificate there is an oval seal or > stamp that says URED R. KAT ZUPE SV ROKA U VIROVITICI. > There is a column naming his parents: Franciscus ? > Popovic'[famulus dominii et]Catharina Pap.The column > next to that says 'R.C'.The next column which is still > under his parents information ,titled mjesto gdje > stanuju i ?.b? says: Horija or Korija? The next column > says Ime,prezime vjera i stalis njegovih kumova ; with > the names Josephus Somogji et Rozalia ukor ejus? > R.C.[Grandparents or God parents?] In the lower right > hand corner is the name "? Gabriel Dolinack", uprav > zupe. Thank you for your help. kumova = godparents (gen. plural) administrator (occupational title) = upravnik uprav = management Croatian telephone directory list 41 surname Popovic' (Popovich) under Virovitica z^upanija (county) Directory also lists 3 surname Pap under the same county.

Merna Robison wrote: > > My grandfather was baptised at SV ROKA in > Virovitica.On the certificate there is an oval seal or > stamp that says URED R. KAT ZUPE SV ROKA U VIROVITICI. > There is a column naming his parents: Franciscus ? > Popovic'[famulus dominii et]Catharina Pap.The column > next to that says 'R.C'.The next column which is still > under his parents information ,titled mjesto gdje > stanuju i ?.b? says: Horija or Korija? The next column > says Ime,prezime vjera i stalis njegovih kumova ; with > the names Josephus Somogji et Rozalia ukor ejus? > R.C.[Grandparents or God parents?] In the lower right > hand corner is the name "? Gabriel Dolinack", uprav > zupe. Thank you for your help. Roman Catholic parish office church Saint Roch in Virovitica Franciscus (L) Francis (E) Franjo (C) famulus (L) servant (masc.) domini lord, landlord (masc.) et and mjesto (C) place gdje where stanuju reside, dwell in rodili ? born Korija is located ? miles from Virovitica. ime (C) name prezime surname vjera religion i and stalis njegovih status or occupation their kumovah ? (kum = godfather, kuma = godmother) (praroditelj - GPs) (djed i baka - GF and GM) uxor (L) wife ejus (L) same ? Gabriel Dolinack uprav administrator z^upe parish > --- Frank Kurchina <frankur@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > > > > > Ms merna j robison wrote: > > > > > > My Grandmother Rosalia Popovic[Rose Popovich] and > > her > > > daughter Theresa left Spisic Bukovici, Croatia by > > > train to Riejeka/Fiume in )October 1905 , yet the > > > Ships Manifest says the SS Cassel sailing from > > Bremen > > > Sept ? 1905 arrived at port of Baltimore Oct > > 3,1905. > > > The index card said she was going to Osaka VA to > > meet > > > her husband Stefan Popovics. His Baptism > > Certificate > > > said his name was Stephanus Popovic' born in > > > Virovitica,Croatia August 23, 1870.My grandfather > > came > > > to America before she did. I went back to > > > Ellisisland.org yesterday and searched for that > > > spelling of my grandfathers name and found one > > Stefan > > > Popovics , Ethnicity : Hungarian,Ruthan ;Place of > > > residence: Otvosfalu ,Date of arrival:August > > > 05,1902,Age on arrival 32y;Gender M ; Marital > > > Status:M,Ship of Travel:Friedland;Port of > > > Departure:Antwerp, Belgium. The age is right, but > > > could not see the whole manifest, just the text. > > It > > > was page 0234,line 0023. I could not find that > > place > > > of residence on any of the recommended map pages > > and > > > do not know if this would be my grandfather or > > not. > > > > > > > I don't think so. > > > > S^pis^ic'-Bukovica was located in Virovitica > > z^upanija (county), > > Croatia where > > Virovitica (town) is also located. > > > > Since surname was probably spelled Popovic' > > (Popovich) Popovics would be > > the Hungarian spelling. > > > > Ötvösfalva (H) was formerly located in Máramos megye > > (county), Hungary > > and is > > now located in the Ukraine. > > -falva, -falu means 'village' in Magyar while Ötvös > > means 'goldsmith'. > > It would have been located in Subcarpathian Rus' > > rather than in Croatia. > > Ruthan probably means Ruthene ethnicity. > > Hungarian/Ruthene would fit for this region. > > What religion was your GF ? > > > > CASSEL > > > > SS Cassel. Built in 1901 by Tecklenborg for > > Norddeutscher Lloyd. 7,543 > > tons; 428 feet long x 54 feet broad; 1 > > funnel, 2 masts; twin screw propulsion, service > > speed 13 knots. > > Interchangeable between the various > > Norddeutscher Lloyd service routes, but mostly in > > the Bremen- Baltimore > > service. 1919 handed over to France > > as war reparations, and renamed "Marechal Gallieni" > > [Noel Reginald > > Pixell Bonsor, North Atlantic Seaway; An > > Illustrated History of the Passenger Services > > Linking the Old World with > > the New (Prescott, Lancashire: T. > > Stephenson & Sons., 1955), p. 188]..[Posted to the > > Emigration-Ships > > Mailing List by Michael Palmer - 11 June > > 1997] > > > > The "Cassel" was built for North German Lloyd in > > 1901 by > > J.C.Tecklenborg, Geestemunde. She was a > > 7,543gross ton ship, length 428.9ft x beam 54.3ft, > > one funnel, two > > masts, twin screw and a speed of 13 knots. > > There was accommodation for 140-2nd and 1,938-3rd > > class passengers. > > Launched on 31/7/1901, she sailed from > > Bremen on her maiden voyage to New York on > > 26/10/1901. On 26/6/1902 she > > commenced her first Bremen - > > Baltimore voyage and on 17/11/1910 started her first > > Bremen - > > Philadelphia - Galveston voyage. She commenced > > the first of 3 voyages from Bremen to Capetown and > > Australia on > > 7/10/1911 and her first Bremen - Boston voyage > > on 8/10/1913. On 14/5/1914 she started her first > > voyage from Bremen to > > New York, Philadelphia and Galveston > > and in August of that year was laid up in Germany. > > In 1919 she went to > > the French company, Messageries > > Maritimes and was renamed "Marechal Gallieni" and in > > 1926 was scrapped > > at La Seyne. [North Atlantic Seaway > > by N.R.P.Bonsor, vol.2,p.565] [Posted to The > > ShipsList by Ted Finch - 4 > > January 1998] > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® > http://movies.yahoo.com/

Ms merna j robison wrote: > > My Grandmother Rosalia Popovic[Rose Popovich] and her > daughter Theresa left Spisic Bukovici, Croatia by > train to Riejeka/Fiume in )October 1905 , yet the > Ships Manifest says the SS Cassel sailing from Bremen > Sept ? 1905 arrived at port of Baltimore Oct 3,1905. > The index card said she was going to Osaka VA to meet > her husband Stefan Popovics. His Baptism Certificate > said his name was Stephanus Popovic' born in > Virovitica,Croatia August 23, 1870.My grandfather came > to America before she did. I went back to > Ellisisland.org yesterday and searched for that > spelling of my grandfathers name and found one Stefan > Popovics , Ethnicity : Hungarian,Ruthan ;Place of > residence: Otvosfalu ,Date of arrival:August > 05,1902,Age on arrival 32y;Gender M ; Marital > Status:M,Ship of Travel:Friedland;Port of > Departure:Antwerp, Belgium. The age is right, but > could not see the whole manifest, just the text. It > was page 0234,line 0023. I could not find that place > of residence on any of the recommended map pages and > do not know if this would be my grandfather or not. > I don't think so. S^pis^ic'-Bukovica was located in Virovitica z^upanija (county), Croatia where Virovitica (town) is also located. Since surname was probably spelled Popovic' (Popovich) Popovics would be the Hungarian spelling. Ötvösfalva (H) was formerly located in Máramos megye (county), Hungary and is now located in the Ukraine. -falva, -falu means 'village' in Magyar while Ötvös means 'goldsmith'. It would have been located in Subcarpathian Rus' rather than in Croatia. Ruthan probably means Ruthene ethnicity. Hungarian/Ruthene would fit for this region. What religion was your GF ? CASSEL SS Cassel. Built in 1901 by Tecklenborg for Norddeutscher Lloyd. 7,543 tons; 428 feet long x 54 feet broad; 1 funnel, 2 masts; twin screw propulsion, service speed 13 knots. Interchangeable between the various Norddeutscher Lloyd service routes, but mostly in the Bremen- Baltimore service. 1919 handed over to France as war reparations, and renamed "Marechal Gallieni" [Noel Reginald Pixell Bonsor, North Atlantic Seaway; An Illustrated History of the Passenger Services Linking the Old World with the New (Prescott, Lancashire: T. Stephenson & Sons., 1955), p. 188]..[Posted to the Emigration-Ships Mailing List by Michael Palmer - 11 June 1997] The "Cassel" was built for North German Lloyd in 1901 by J.C.Tecklenborg, Geestemunde. She was a 7,543gross ton ship, length 428.9ft x beam 54.3ft, one funnel, two masts, twin screw and a speed of 13 knots. There was accommodation for 140-2nd and 1,938-3rd class passengers. Launched on 31/7/1901, she sailed from Bremen on her maiden voyage to New York on 26/10/1901. On 26/6/1902 she commenced her first Bremen - Baltimore voyage and on 17/11/1910 started her first Bremen - Philadelphia - Galveston voyage. She commenced the first of 3 voyages from Bremen to Capetown and Australia on 7/10/1911 and her first Bremen - Boston voyage on 8/10/1913. On 14/5/1914 she started her first voyage from Bremen to New York, Philadelphia and Galveston and in August of that year was laid up in Germany. In 1919 she went to the French company, Messageries Maritimes and was renamed "Marechal Gallieni" and in 1926 was scrapped at La Seyne. [North Atlantic Seaway by N.R.P.Bonsor, vol.2,p.565] [Posted to The ShipsList by Ted Finch - 4 January 1998]

My grandfather was baptised at SV ROKA in Virovitica.On the certificate there is an oval seal or stamp that says URED R. KAT ZUPE SV ROKA U VIROVITICI. There is a column naming his parents: Franciscus ? Popovic'[famulus dominii et]Catharina Pap.The column next to that says 'R.C'.The next column which is still under his parents information ,titled mjesto gdje stanuju i ?.b? says: Horija or Korija? The next column says Ime,prezime vjera i stalis njegovih kumova ; with the names Josephus Somogji et Rozalia ukor ejus? R.C.[Grandparents or God parents?] In the lower right hand corner is the name "? Gabriel Dolinack", uprav zupe. Thank you for your help. --- Frank Kurchina <frankur@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > > > Ms merna j robison wrote: > > > > My Grandmother Rosalia Popovic[Rose Popovich] and > her > > daughter Theresa left Spisic Bukovici, Croatia by > > train to Riejeka/Fiume in )October 1905 , yet the > > Ships Manifest says the SS Cassel sailing from > Bremen > > Sept ? 1905 arrived at port of Baltimore Oct > 3,1905. > > The index card said she was going to Osaka VA to > meet > > her husband Stefan Popovics. His Baptism > Certificate > > said his name was Stephanus Popovic' born in > > Virovitica,Croatia August 23, 1870.My grandfather > came > > to America before she did. I went back to > > Ellisisland.org yesterday and searched for that > > spelling of my grandfathers name and found one > Stefan > > Popovics , Ethnicity : Hungarian,Ruthan ;Place of > > residence: Otvosfalu ,Date of arrival:August > > 05,1902,Age on arrival 32y;Gender M ; Marital > > Status:M,Ship of Travel:Friedland;Port of > > Departure:Antwerp, Belgium. The age is right, but > > could not see the whole manifest, just the text. > It > > was page 0234,line 0023. I could not find that > place > > of residence on any of the recommended map pages > and > > do not know if this would be my grandfather or > not. > > > > I don't think so. > > S^pis^ic'-Bukovica was located in Virovitica > z^upanija (county), > Croatia where > Virovitica (town) is also located. > > Since surname was probably spelled Popovic' > (Popovich) Popovics would be > the Hungarian spelling. > > �tv�sfalva (H) was formerly located in M�ramos megye > (county), Hungary > and is > now located in the Ukraine. > -falva, -falu means 'village' in Magyar while �tv�s > means 'goldsmith'. > It would have been located in Subcarpathian Rus' > rather than in Croatia. > Ruthan probably means Ruthene ethnicity. > Hungarian/Ruthene would fit for this region. > What religion was your GF ? > > CASSEL > > SS Cassel. Built in 1901 by Tecklenborg for > Norddeutscher Lloyd. 7,543 > tons; 428 feet long x 54 feet broad; 1 > funnel, 2 masts; twin screw propulsion, service > speed 13 knots. > Interchangeable between the various > Norddeutscher Lloyd service routes, but mostly in > the Bremen- Baltimore > service. 1919 handed over to France > as war reparations, and renamed "Marechal Gallieni" > [Noel Reginald > Pixell Bonsor, North Atlantic Seaway; An > Illustrated History of the Passenger Services > Linking the Old World with > the New (Prescott, Lancashire: T. > Stephenson & Sons., 1955), p. 188]..[Posted to the > Emigration-Ships > Mailing List by Michael Palmer - 11 June > 1997] > > The "Cassel" was built for North German Lloyd in > 1901 by > J.C.Tecklenborg, Geestemunde. She was a > 7,543gross ton ship, length 428.9ft x beam 54.3ft, > one funnel, two > masts, twin screw and a speed of 13 knots. > There was accommodation for 140-2nd and 1,938-3rd > class passengers. > Launched on 31/7/1901, she sailed from > Bremen on her maiden voyage to New York on > 26/10/1901. On 26/6/1902 she > commenced her first Bremen - > Baltimore voyage and on 17/11/1910 started her first > Bremen - > Philadelphia - Galveston voyage. She commenced > the first of 3 voyages from Bremen to Capetown and > Australia on > 7/10/1911 and her first Bremen - Boston voyage > on 8/10/1913. On 14/5/1914 she started her first > voyage from Bremen to > New York, Philadelphia and Galveston > and in August of that year was laid up in Germany. > In 1919 she went to > the French company, Messageries > Maritimes and was renamed "Marechal Gallieni" and in > 1926 was scrapped > at La Seyne. [North Atlantic Seaway > by N.R.P.Bonsor, vol.2,p.565] [Posted to The > ShipsList by Ted Finch - 4 > January 1998] > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > > > Robert Jerin wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 10:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > > > > > > > > > > > JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > > > > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the > > manifest) > > > > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had > > not > > > > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld > > where > > > > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any > > way? > > > > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it > > back. > > > > Jim > > > > > > Jim, > > > > > > Just a thought > > > > > > Believe military conscription was between ages 18-45 with 3 years > > > active service followed by a reserve (militia) commitment. > > > > > > It is strange that your gr. GF would travel 130 miles from Goric^ka to > > > Trieste, so he could sail down the Adriatic Sea (450 miles ?) then > > > around > > > the boot of Italy and across the Mediterranean Sea and only then across > > > the > > > Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > > > > > While his son traveled 646 miles (probably by train) from Goric^ka to > > > Bremen, > > > Germany and then sailed across the North Sea and Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > > > > > Perhaps it was just a question of cheaper ship fare ? > > > > Could have been a cheaper fair or one of a few other factors. > > > > There certainly were fewer Croatians leaving via Adriatic ports of Trieste > > and Fiume (Rijeka) than there were via Bremen. But severl factors no doubt > > determined port of departure. Those factors involved shipping agents and > > land transportation available. There were shipping agents working in > > various places at various times. Sometimes US companies would work in > > conjunction with shipping agents recruiting labor for US mines, mills, > > factories and lumbering operations. The following port of departure data is > > from the Burgenland bunch web page. > > > > Prior to 1918, the the majority of Austro-Hungarian emigrants left from the > > following ports as the numbers indicate: > > > > Hamburg & Bremen- 2,389,325 > > Rotterdam & Antwerp- 653,613 > > Le Havre- 89,335 > > > > Some emigrants from the southern parts (including most of central and > > eastern > > Hungary) left from: > > > > Genoa- 96,038 > > Trieste- 76,849 > > Fiume (Rijeka)- 242,470 > > > > Robert Jerin > > > > Interesting. > > And if you exclude Austria which was the Burgenland emphasis. > Hamburg & Bremen, Antwerp and Rotterdam drop to perhaps 50 % > Traffic through Genoa which is on the western coast of Italy increases. > And the Hungarians with their oppressive immigration law of 1904, try to > funnel all emigrants through the port of Fiume/ Rijeka. > > Total emigrants from HUNGARY > > 1871-1913 > Hamburg 420,002 > Bremen 874,685 > > Genoa, Italy; Le Havre, France; Antwerp, Belgium,and Rotterdam, Holland > were first used as ports of exit from HUNGARY in 1889. > > 1889-1913 > Genoa > 13,131 > Le Havre > 51,852 > Antwerp > 206,231 > Rotterdam > 114,680 > > > Trieste and Fiume/Rijeka were first used as ports of exit from HUNGARY > in 1904. > > 1904-1913 > Trieste > 32,032 > Fiume > 305,299 > > Ethnic division of immigrants from Hungary to the U.S. > 1900-1912 Totals > > Hungarians - 387,391 > Slovaks - 387,472 > Germans - 218,630 > Croats/Slovenes - 239,842 > Serbs - 34,456 > Ruthenes - 43,079 > Romanians - 98,175 > Thanks for the info, Frank. And those numbers obviously do not inc. the number of Croats/Dalmatians/Hercegovians/Bosnians leaving the Austrian part of the empire! Intersting also in that only a small portion of Slovenia would have been in the Hungarian part of the empire at that time, thus the number listed as Croat/Slovene would no doubt have been mostly Croat. Also interesting that the numbers for Fiume (Rijeka) do not seem to agree. Still of all the many, many manifests I have seen for Croatians not many left through Fiume, Rijeka or Trieste. Robert

My Grandmother Rosalia Popovic[Rose Popovich] and her daughter Theresa left Spisic Bukovici, Croatia by train to Riejeka/Fiume in )October 1905 , yet the Ships Manifest says the SS Cassel sailing from Bremen Sept ? 1905 arrived at port of Baltimore Oct 3,1905. The index card said she was going to Osaka VA to meet her husband Stefan Popovics. His Baptism Certificate said his name was Stephanus Popovic' born in Virovitica,Croatia August 23, 1870.My grandfather came to America before she did. I went back to Ellisisland.org yesterday and searched for that spelling of my grandfathers name and found one Stefan Popovics , Ethnicity : Hungarian,Ruthan ;Place of residence: Otvosfalu ,Date of arrival:August 05,1902,Age on arrival 32y;Gender M ; Marital Status:M,Ship of Travel:Friedland;Port of Departure:Antwerp, Belgium. The age is right, but could not see the whole manifest, just the text. It was page 0234,line 0023. I could not find that place of residence on any of the recommended map pages and do not know if this would be my grandfather or not. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� http://movies.yahoo.com/

Robert Jerin wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 10:10 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > > > > > > > JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > > > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the > manifest) > > > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had > not > > > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld > where > > > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any > way? > > > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it > back. > > > Jim > > > > Jim, > > > > Just a thought > > > > Believe military conscription was between ages 18-45 with 3 years > > active service followed by a reserve (militia) commitment. > > > > It is strange that your gr. GF would travel 130 miles from Goric^ka to > > Trieste, so he could sail down the Adriatic Sea (450 miles ?) then > > around > > the boot of Italy and across the Mediterranean Sea and only then across > > the > > Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > > > While his son traveled 646 miles (probably by train) from Goric^ka to > > Bremen, > > Germany and then sailed across the North Sea and Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > > > Perhaps it was just a question of cheaper ship fare ? > > Could have been a cheaper fair or one of a few other factors. > > There certainly were fewer Croatians leaving via Adriatic ports of Trieste > and Fiume (Rijeka) than there were via Bremen. But severl factors no doubt > determined port of departure. Those factors involved shipping agents and > land transportation available. There were shipping agents working in > various places at various times. Sometimes US companies would work in > conjunction with shipping agents recruiting labor for US mines, mills, > factories and lumbering operations. The following port of departure data is > from the Burgenland bunch web page. > > Prior to 1918, the the majority of Austro-Hungarian emigrants left from the > following ports as the numbers indicate: > > Hamburg & Bremen- 2,389,325 > Rotterdam & Antwerp- 653,613 > Le Havre- 89,335 > > Some emigrants from the southern parts (including most of central and > eastern > Hungary) left from: > > Genoa- 96,038 > Trieste- 76,849 > Fiume (Rijeka)- 242,470 > > Robert Jerin > Interesting. And if you exclude Austria which was the Burgenland emphasis. Hamburg & Bremen, Antwerp and Rotterdam drop to perhaps 50 % Traffic through Genoa which is on the western coast of Italy increases. And the Hungarians with their oppressive immigration law of 1904, try to funnel all emigrants through the port of Fiume/ Rijeka. Total emigrants from HUNGARY 1871-1913 Hamburg 420,002 Bremen 874,685 Genoa, Italy; Le Havre, France; Antwerp, Belgium,and Rotterdam, Holland were first used as ports of exit from HUNGARY in 1889. 1889-1913 Genoa 13,131 Le Havre 51,852 Antwerp 206,231 Rotterdam 114,680 Trieste and Fiume/Rijeka were first used as ports of exit from HUNGARY in 1904. 1904-1913 Trieste 32,032 Fiume 305,299 Ethnic division of immigrants from Hungary to the U.S. 1900-1912 Totals Hungarians - 387,391 Slovaks - 387,472 Germans - 218,630 Croats/Slovenes - 239,842 Serbs - 34,456 Ruthenes - 43,079 Romanians - 98,175 Source : Royal Central Statistical Office Budapest, 1918 v Frank Kurcina

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > > > JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) > > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not > > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where > > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? > > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. > > Jim > > Jim, > > Just a thought > > Believe military conscription was between ages 18-45 with 3 years > active service followed by a reserve (militia) commitment. > > It is strange that your gr. GF would travel 130 miles from Goric^ka to > Trieste, so he could sail down the Adriatic Sea (450 miles ?) then > around > the boot of Italy and across the Mediterranean Sea and only then across > the > Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > While his son traveled 646 miles (probably by train) from Goric^ka to > Bremen, > Germany and then sailed across the North Sea and Atlantic Ocean to NYC. > > Perhaps it was just a question of cheaper ship fare ? Could have been a cheaper fair or one of a few other factors. There certainly were fewer Croatians leaving via Adriatic ports of Trieste and Fiume (Rijeka) than there were via Bremen. But severl factors no doubt determined port of departure. Those factors involved shipping agents and land transportation available. There were shipping agents working in various places at various times. Sometimes US companies would work in conjunction with shipping agents recruiting labor for US mines, mills, factories and lumbering operations. The following port of departure data is from the Burgenland bunch web page. Prior to 1918, the the majority of Austro-Hungarian emigrants left from the following ports as the numbers indicate: Hamburg & Bremen- 2,389,325 Rotterdam & Antwerp- 653,613 Le Havre- 89,335 Some emigrants from the southern parts (including most of central and eastern Hungary) left from: Genoa- 96,038 Trieste- 76,849 Fiume (Rijeka)- 242,470 Robert Jerin >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > > > JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) > > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not > > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where > > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? > > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. > > Jim > > > Balkan Wars > > http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/EastEurope/FirstBalkan.html > > First Balkan War November 28, 1912 > Second Balkan War June 29, 1913 > > Of course this would have effected Serbia and the rest of the Balkans, but I don't believe that it had much to do with Croatia and Central Europe. Robert Jerin

----- Original Message ----- From: <JimTedrick@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? Of the 5,000,000 people who left the Austro-Hungarian Empire far more left due to economic and cultural discrimination than because of the draft. As far as hostilities, the Hungarians practised Magyarization of Croatia as well as the Slovak region. Croatians viewed this with alarm as The Kingdom of Croatia had since 1100 had a degree of autonomy within first Hungary and later the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Croatian-Serbs and Croatian-Croats did not have any real issues prior to the founding of SHS (Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes) in 1918. An account of that Magyarization problem http://www.bartleby.com/65/cr/Croatia.html > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. This was not uncomon, many men immigrated here and died here leaving families behind. Some of whose children eventually immigrated. But according to Dr. George Prpic (retired Prof. John Carroll Univ., Cleveland, Ohio) stated that most Croatians did not intend to stay but to earn money, return home and buy land. In re to economic problems in Croatia and perhaps in the rest of the A-H Empire, the industrial revolution was behind the US and western Europe, farms were small and families large. The eldest male would inherit the farm leaving nothing for younger males. In fact many Croatians formed zadrugas, something like a co-op, which sometimes inc relatives. In these they shared work and earnings and life in general. When they came to the US many lived in homes with extended families. I have heard these refered to as zadrugas. My GM worked in one in Onalinda, PA. Of course only a percentage returned, of those who returned many became respected in their selo (village), some returned to America as they became accustomed to life and politics in the US and some simply ran out of money. Robert Jerin Croatian Heritage Museum Cleveland, Ohio

JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. > Jim Jim, Just a thought Believe military conscription was between ages 18-45 with 3 years active service followed by a reserve (militia) commitment. It is strange that your gr. GF would travel 130 miles from Goric^ka to Trieste, so he could sail down the Adriatic Sea (450 miles ?) then around the boot of Italy and across the Mediterranean Sea and only then across the Atlantic Ocean to NYC. While his son traveled 646 miles (probably by train) from Goric^ka to Bremen, Germany and then sailed across the North Sea and Atlantic Ocean to NYC. Perhaps it was just a question of cheaper ship fare ?

----- Original Message ----- From: <JimTedrick@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > Hi > Is there any way to search Ellis Island files by the city you left? > thanks > Jim Hello Jim, I know that there are some lists of passengers leaving Bremen, which can be found at: http://istg.rootsweb.com/bremenproj/bremenproject.html Croatia genealogy help link list http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/index.html Robert Jerin Croatian Hertiage Museum Cleveland, Ohio >

My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. Jim

Hi Is there any way to search Ellis Island files by the city you left? thanks Jim

JimTedrick@aol.com wrote: > > My gr. grandfather Gajo Kukic (44) came from Goricka through Trieste in > February 1913 to Ellis and his son Stojsa 15 and a half (16 on the manifest) > through Bremen in November 1913. I have read that even though war had not > formally started that there were hostlities in the part of the wourld where > they came from. I wonder if they were avoiding military service in any way? > They left their wife/mother behind and as far as I know never made it back. > Jim Balkan Wars http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/EastEurope/FirstBalkan.html First Balkan War November 28, 1912 Second Balkan War June 29, 1913 In U.S. Immigration Passenger Lists , emigrants were asked to provide their Last Residence and Final Destination in the U.S. In 1906 and 1907, place of birth - town or village was added. Bremen Lists 1920-1939 http://db.genealogy.net/maus/gate/shiplists.cgi?lang=en http://www.deutsche-auswanderer-datenbank.de/enframeset.htm Hamburg Lists http://www.hamburg.de/fhh/behoerden/staatsarchiv/link_to_your_roots/english/index.htm Trieste Trst 1867-1918 Istria was part of of Austria under the dual Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. 1918-1947 Istria was part of Italy, not Croatia or Yugoslavia. Today Trieste is not part of Istria nor of Croatia, but of Italy. In 1947, the Free Territory of Trieste was created . Zone A (city of Trieste) was administered by Anglo-American forces and Zone B by the Yugoslavs. In 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was abolished. Zone B was given to former Yugoslavia and Zone A was given to Italy.

Kristie, Even in 1910 Ellis wasn't the only entrance to the USA, just the most commonly used one. One of the families I research, a cousin's family, has people entering thru Galveston and Baltimore at this time, and even one moemorable ship jumper who literally jumped overboard in Detroit. If you can find naturalization papers for your husband's great-grandfather, for this time period they invariably list the name of the ship, the date, and the port. This would help you a lot in finding the manifest. I hope they are available to you. If you go looking, remember that most people applied at the local level, with their county government and not thru the federal courts. The county offices may still have these papers, or they could now be with a local historical society or with a college library archive. If they are held by the feds, you need to contact NARA. Good hunting, Ashley >I have searched for almost 10 years trying to locate the ship my husband's >great grandfather came on. I found the ship manifest records at Ellis Island >for his wife and daughter and her brother. However still no luck for >Bronko/Branko Cabunac. Helen Cabunac, Kosta Cabunac, and George Djakovich >came in 1912. Bronko came just prior to that with his son Gustav. I am >guessing he came around 1910 or 1911. After reading the email on Le Harve now >I wonder if Bronko did not come that route. Gustav would be around the age of >4 or 5 years old. My father in law has wondered if Bronko did not leave >Croatia to avoid the war somehow. > >If anyone else has any suggestions please submit them to me. Thank You. > > >Kristie --

----- Original Message ----- From: <Cnt0712@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > I have searched for almost 10 years trying to locate the ship my husband's > great grandfather came on. I found the ship manifest records at Ellis Island > for his wife and daughter and her brother. However still no luck for > Bronko/Branko Cabunac. Helen Cabunac, Kosta Cabunac, and George Djakovich Did you notice their destination? It was to Milwaukee to Husband, father and bro-in-law Petar CABUNAC (but it looks like there is a dot over U, could it be CABINAC?) not Bronko. Have you looked for Petar? > came in 1912. Bronko came just prior to that with his son Gustav. I am > guessing he came around 1910 or 1911. After reading the email on Le Harve now > I wonder if Bronko did not come that route. Gustav would be around the age of > 4 or 5 years old. My father in law has wondered if Bronko did not leave > Croatia to avoid the war somehow. Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated June 28, 1914 and Austria-Hungary declared war on Russia July 28, 1914. So World War I was still two years away. > > If anyone else has any suggestions please submit them to me. Thank You. Have you checked alternate sp.? There is a manifest for Stefan COBUNAC from the same town as Helen and Kosta, destination Milwaukee May 1907 to friend Bronko PAVLOVIC but right below that is Petar COBINAC destination Milwaukee to friend. I understand that some did arr on other's passports but I have seen far more with minor mis-spellings of names or mis-transcribed names. There are 7 listings in Croatia online phone book for CABUNAC in Virovitica county, where Gaciste is located and one listing in CABUNAC 774183 CABUNAC DANILO GACISTE 62 33410 GACISTE The LDS Family History Center has microfilm church records available locally, which you can rent. They are for the Orthodox church for the years 1872-1882. You can rent them for about $3.50. http://www.familysearch.com/Eng/Library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?dis play=localitysearch&columns=*,180,0 Robert Jerin

I have searched for almost 10 years trying to locate the ship my husband's great grandfather came on. I found the ship manifest records at Ellis Island for his wife and daughter and her brother. However still no luck for Bronko/Branko Cabunac. Helen Cabunac, Kosta Cabunac, and George Djakovich came in 1912. Bronko came just prior to that with his son Gustav. I am guessing he came around 1910 or 1911. After reading the email on Le Harve now I wonder if Bronko did not come that route. Gustav would be around the age of 4 or 5 years old. My father in law has wondered if Bronko did not leave Croatia to avoid the war somehow. If anyone else has any suggestions please submit them to me. Thank You. Kristie

Hello Ashley, There is a way to look at Ellis Island files by year. It can be done at the following web page: http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/mm.htm Robert Jerin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Tiwara" <grubisic@netwurx.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Austrian draft pre-WW1 > Mary, > I suspect you could get on board at LeHavre with any kind of > a good story and something that looked like paperwork. And cash. > Getting off at Ellis and getting to stay might be another story. > Grandma even 60 years later shivered over the worry everyone had, she > had, her roommate had, over getting to stay. From the looks of the > manifest, Grandma's roommate was not allowed to stay as she is > recorded as unlikely to be able to support herself. Grandma also > mentioned consumption to me, that anyone with a cough or a cold was > in agony lest they be detained and deported for TB. > I haven't found that you can do a year by year search at > Ellis but the search engine is somewhat manipulable. Once you get > into the files, you can change the year range or do a year by year > search. It works best when they are not busy and also when your > computer is free of multi-tasking. > Frank has very good reusults searching. Perhaps he could > comment on that question, and also on the most likely times in 24 > hours to not get bumped. > > Ashley > > > > > > > >Ashley, What a great story. That's interesting about Leharve. Do you think > >someone could use someone else's identity traveling with an eight year old? > >Also, can you search Ellis Island by year? > >Mary Hegarty > > > > > >on 3/21/02 11:58 PM, Ashley Tiwara at grubisic@netwurx.net wrote: > > > >> One of the questions I asked Thomas Edlund about at the FEEFHS > >> conference was whether married men were subject to the draft, > >> pre-WW1. He more or less said that they usually wouldn't be called > >> up, that single men were a priority, but that unless they'd completed > >> their military service, they would not be allowed to have permission > >> to leave the country. > >> The question came up because my grandfather, Juraji GRUBISIC, > >> borrowed the papers of Thomas STARCEVIC to leave the area controlled > >> by Austria. He was married in 1906 and I had thought he would not > >> have been draftable, but legally this wasn't so. Since he hadn't > >> served in the military, he would have been denied a passport. To get > >> out of the country, which he did in 1907, he needed to borrow his > >> cousin's papers. Or at least, Grandpa's aunt was married to a > >> STARCEVIC so I think he used her son or grandson's papers. > >> Interestingly, on the ship's manifest is a note that these > >> weren't his papers. Ellis doesn't list Grandpa under his own name > >> though, just under his cousin's name. When Grandpa got his > >> naturalization papers in the 1920's, this same note shows up on those > >> papers, that Grandpa arrived using someone else's papers. It did > >> make it easier for me to find him at the Ellis site and I certainly > >> would have wondered why he didn't show up at all as a GRUBISIC. > >> I can be pretty sure that the STARCEVIC of 1907 is Grandpa > >> because he says he's going to visit a friend, Lovro GRUBISIC. This > >> is actually his older brother Lawrence. > >> Grandpa came thru Le Havre. Several presenters at the FEEFHS > >> conference mentioned Le Havre as the port of choice if you had poorly > >> drawn or defective papers. It seems that this French port was the > >> preferred embarkation point for those who wanted to get away with the > >> fewest questions asked. Just what one would need with borrowed > >> papers. > >> > >> Anyone else researching GRUBISIC or STARCEVIC from the hill > >> towns east of Rijeka? Or PETROVIC, BLAZEVIC, KRUZIC, KUCHAN, TOMIC, > >> CERNICH, or KAUZLARIC, and many more names from the area also? > >> > >> Regards, > > > Ashley > > > > > -- >