Thanks Robert! Wow, these two posts took my breath away!!! It may seem a small step to the list but a giant leap for Bukovic genealogy! You're a star! Peg PS Too bad my grandmother is long at her reward or I'd ask her about any octopus tendencies on the part of my grandfather. :-) > From: "Robert Jerin" <rjerin@adelphia.net> > Reply-To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:09:18 -0500 > To: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > Resent-From: CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:09:37 -0700 > > Hello Peg, > > In my last message I mentioned Hobodna Wlast (as I read it) from the ship > manifest. This is German sounding to me. > > Since my last post I checked the old 1910 maps (which you will find in my > link list) and have found what may be that "strange town" in column 10 and > 11. If you go to the link below, then click on Vercoe county (this may take > some time to load, but they are great maps with lots of detail inc. villages > and topography). Then set your bottom browser bar to the center and the > side bar all the way to the bottom you will see Trnava (and Andrijevdiolnyi, > where the phone listing is from) and Slobodnavlast in the hills up and to > the left just below Levanska Varos. The sp on the manifest got me chuckling > as I thought of an octopus! But I believe these are your places > > http://www.familytree.hu/ > > Robert Jerin > Croatian Heritage Museum > Cleveland, Ohio > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Margaret B. Erbes" <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 7:25 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > > >> >> >> Thanks all who checked the manifest for me. I'm actually looking for the >> weird town name in columns 10 and 11. It looks almost like two words. I >> will also check the locations for Trnavo you mentioned as the one I looked >> at (near Djakovo) yielded nothing. >> >> Thanks again, >> Peg >> >

Hello Peg, In my last message I mentioned Hobodna Wlast (as I read it) from the ship manifest. This is German sounding to me. Since my last post I checked the old 1910 maps (which you will find in my link list) and have found what may be that "strange town" in column 10 and 11. If you go to the link below, then click on Vercoe county (this may take some time to load, but they are great maps with lots of detail inc. villages and topography). Then set your bottom browser bar to the center and the side bar all the way to the bottom you will see Trnava (and Andrijevdiolnyi, where the phone listing is from) and Slobodnavlast in the hills up and to the left just below Levanska Varos. The sp on the manifest got me chuckling as I thought of an octopus! But I believe these are your places http://www.familytree.hu/ Robert Jerin Croatian Heritage Museum Cleveland, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret B. Erbes" <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > > > Thanks all who checked the manifest for me. I'm actually looking for the > weird town name in columns 10 and 11. It looks almost like two words. I > will also check the locations for Trnavo you mentioned as the one I looked > at (near Djakovo) yielded nothing. > > Thanks again, > Peg >

Hello Peg, Trnava 115.6 miles ESE of Zagreb http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?latlongtype=decimal&latitude=45.2667&lo ngitude=18.2667 Checking the arr of GRGANIC (listed as a cousin on Ivan's manifest) there is a Mato from Lazo, Hungary which may be Laze (now Croatia). The in Column 11, Hobodna Wlast, is a puzzle. I am not familiar with such a place, however hobodnica is an octopus! I also search a placename list on a German genalogy web page and found no matches. The closest match is Slobodnica, which is near Laze. There is one listing for BUKOVIC from a village about a mile or so from Trnava Name - BUKOVIC BORIS Address - ZAGREBACKA 70 Postal Code & Town - 35214 DONJI ANDRIJEVCI Phone - 385 35 471 235 There are more listings for the names MARTINOVIC and GRGANIC are found in the area near Trnava in the online phone book. http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/index.html Hope this helps Robert Jerin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret B. Erbes" <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:05 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according the > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same as the > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same town but > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before if anyone > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering if > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the name of > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your translation!) > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest with a > fresh eye. > > I sure would appreciate it! > > Peg Erbes >

Thanks all who checked the manifest for me. I'm actually looking for the weird town name in columns 10 and 11. It looks almost like two words. I will also check the locations for Trnavo you mentioned as the one I looked at (near Djakovo) yielded nothing. Thanks again, Peg

Just a short note- I checked the original manuscript and it listed on one of 2 pages a place of birth, which was trnovo. It also listed him as Croatian. Hope this helps you limit it down. Dave

There's a Trnovo close to Jajce in Bosna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > > > "Margaret B. Erbes" wrote: > > > > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according the > > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same as the > > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same town but > > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before if anyone > > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering if > > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the name of > > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your translation!) > > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest with a > > fresh eye. > > > > I sure would appreciate it! > > > > Peg Erbes > > I don't remember the Last Residence as listed in the ship manifest. > > However, there are two place names called Trnovo located in Slovenia, > the republic next to Croatia. > > 1) Trnovo (Tarnova) located 38 miles west of Ljubljana, Slovenia. > 2) Trnovo located 49 miles WNW of Ljubljana, Slovenia. > > The Austria connection makes this the plausible town. > > 1 Trnovo is located near the port of Trieste (Trst), Italy (then > Austria) > 2 Trnovo is located further north of the port but still is applicable. > > Following the First World War, new borders for Austro-Hungarian Monarchy > were set by the Treaties of Saint Germain-en-Laye (September 10, 1919) > and Trianon (June 4, 1920). > > As a result, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was utterly transformed into > smaller territories and new countries. > > Hungary became an entirely separate nation, but lost large portions of > its territories as well, retaining only core Hungarian-speaking areas. > Retained were West and Central Hungary plus a small western portion of > the Banat, the northern portion of the Batschka, the Central > Hungarian Highlands, and the northern portion of Swabian Turkey. > > A new country of Yugoslavia was also formed including the former > Austro-Hungarian lands of the southern portion of the Banat, the > southern portion of the Batschka, Bosnia-Hercegovina, the southern > portion of the duchy of Carinthia (Slovenia), most of the of duchy > of Carniola, Croatia-Slavonia, the kingdom of Dalmatia, the southern > portion of Swabian Turkey, the southern portion of duchy of Styria, > and Syrmia. > > (The Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes was established on > Dec. 1, 1918) renamed Yugoslavia on October 4, 1929. > It existed as such until WW 2 in 1941. > (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) from 1945 to 1991. > The six republics that formed the former Yugoslavia were : > Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, > and Serbia. > > Following WW 1, Italy took for itself the southwestern portion of > duchy of Carniola, the county of Gorizia-Gradisca, the margraviate of > Istria, the town of Trieste, the southern portion of the county of > Tyrol, city of Zadar (formerly part of the Kingdom of Dalmatia), and > the islands of Cherso/Ceres, Lusino/Los^inj, and Lagosta/Lastovo. > > The 1947 (WW 2) peace treaty recognized Yugoslavia's acquisition of > the former Italian territory. > This included Dalmatian city of Zadar/Zara and the islands of > Cres/Cherso, Los^inj/Lusino, and Lastovo/Lagosta, as well as former city > of Rijeka/Fiume and, farther north, western Slovenia and part of Istria. > > 1867-1918 Istria was part of of Austria under the dual Austro-Hungarian > Monarchy. > > 1918-1947 Istria was part of Italy, not Croatia or Yugoslavia. > > Today, Trieste is not part of Istria nor of Croatia, but of Italy. > > In 1947, the Free Territory of Trieste was created . > Zone A (city of Trieste) was administered by Anglo-American forces > and Zone B by the Yugoslavs. > > In 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was abolished. > Zone B was given to former Yugoslavia and Zone A was given to Italy. >

Don Marinkovich wrote: > > There's a Trnovo close to Jajce in Bosna > ----- Original Message ----- Actually there are 4 place names Trnovo located in Bosnia & Herzegovina. From 1908, when incorporated into the A-H Empire, Bosnia & Herzegovina was under the joint rule of both Austrian and Hungary. If this was the correct location would still not have given the surname bearer Croatian ethnicity ? > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:37 PM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > > > > > > > "Margaret B. Erbes" wrote: > > > > > > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according > the > > > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same as > the > > > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same town > but > > > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before if > anyone > > > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering if > > > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the > name of > > > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your > translation!) > > > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest with a > > > fresh eye. > > > > > > I sure would appreciate it! > > > > > > Peg Erbes > > > > I don't remember the Last Residence as listed in the ship manifest. > > > > However, there are two place names called Trnovo located in Slovenia, > > the republic next to Croatia. > > > > 1) Trnovo (Tarnova) located 38 miles west of Ljubljana, Slovenia. > > 2) Trnovo located 49 miles WNW of Ljubljana, Slovenia. > > > > The Austria connection makes this the plausible town. > > > > 1 Trnovo is located near the port of Trieste (Trst), Italy (then > > Austria) > > 2 Trnovo is located further north of the port but still is applicable. > > > > Following the First World War, new borders for Austro-Hungarian Monarchy > > were set by the Treaties of Saint Germain-en-Laye (September 10, 1919) > > and Trianon (June 4, 1920). > > > > As a result, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was utterly transformed into > > smaller territories and new countries. > > > > Hungary became an entirely separate nation, but lost large portions of > > its territories as well, retaining only core Hungarian-speaking areas. > > Retained were West and Central Hungary plus a small western portion of > > the Banat, the northern portion of the Batschka, the Central > > Hungarian Highlands, and the northern portion of Swabian Turkey. > > > > A new country of Yugoslavia was also formed including the former > > Austro-Hungarian lands of the southern portion of the Banat, the > > southern portion of the Batschka, Bosnia-Hercegovina, the southern > > portion of the duchy of Carinthia (Slovenia), most of the of duchy > > of Carniola, Croatia-Slavonia, the kingdom of Dalmatia, the southern > > portion of Swabian Turkey, the southern portion of duchy of Styria, > > and Syrmia. > > > > (The Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes was established on > > Dec. 1, 1918) renamed Yugoslavia on October 4, 1929. > > It existed as such until WW 2 in 1941. > > (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) from 1945 to 1991. > > The six republics that formed the former Yugoslavia were : > > Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, > > and Serbia. > > > > Following WW 1, Italy took for itself the southwestern portion of > > duchy of Carniola, the county of Gorizia-Gradisca, the margraviate of > > Istria, the town of Trieste, the southern portion of the county of > > Tyrol, city of Zadar (formerly part of the Kingdom of Dalmatia), and > > the islands of Cherso/Ceres, Lusino/Los^inj, and Lagosta/Lastovo. > > > > The 1947 (WW 2) peace treaty recognized Yugoslavia's acquisition of > > the former Italian territory. > > This included Dalmatian city of Zadar/Zara and the islands of > > Cres/Cherso, Los^inj/Lusino, and Lastovo/Lagosta, as well as former city > > of Rijeka/Fiume and, farther north, western Slovenia and part of Istria. > > > > 1867-1918 Istria was part of of Austria under the dual Austro-Hungarian > > Monarchy. > > > > 1918-1947 Istria was part of Italy, not Croatia or Yugoslavia. > > > > Today, Trieste is not part of Istria nor of Croatia, but of Italy. > > > > In 1947, the Free Territory of Trieste was created . > > Zone A (city of Trieste) was administered by Anglo-American forces > > and Zone B by the Yugoslavs. > > > > In 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was abolished. > > Zone B was given to former Yugoslavia and Zone A was given to Italy. > >

"Margaret B. Erbes" wrote: > > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according the > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same as the > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same town but > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before if anyone > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering if > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the name of > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your translation!) > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest with a > fresh eye. > > I sure would appreciate it! > > Peg Erbes I don't remember the Last Residence as listed in the ship manifest. However, there are two place names called Trnovo located in Slovenia, the republic next to Croatia. 1) Trnovo (Tarnova) located 38 miles west of Ljubljana, Slovenia. 2) Trnovo located 49 miles WNW of Ljubljana, Slovenia. The Austria connection makes this the plausible town. 1 Trnovo is located near the port of Trieste (Trst), Italy (then Austria) 2 Trnovo is located further north of the port but still is applicable. Following the First World War, new borders for Austro-Hungarian Monarchy were set by the Treaties of Saint Germain-en-Laye (September 10, 1919) and Trianon (June 4, 1920). As a result, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was utterly transformed into smaller territories and new countries. Hungary became an entirely separate nation, but lost large portions of its territories as well, retaining only core Hungarian-speaking areas. Retained were West and Central Hungary plus a small western portion of the Banat, the northern portion of the Batschka, the Central Hungarian Highlands, and the northern portion of Swabian Turkey. A new country of Yugoslavia was also formed including the former Austro-Hungarian lands of the southern portion of the Banat, the southern portion of the Batschka, Bosnia-Hercegovina, the southern portion of the duchy of Carinthia (Slovenia), most of the of duchy of Carniola, Croatia-Slavonia, the kingdom of Dalmatia, the southern portion of Swabian Turkey, the southern portion of duchy of Styria, and Syrmia. (The Kingdom of Serbs,Croats and Slovenes was established on Dec. 1, 1918) renamed Yugoslavia on October 4, 1929. It existed as such until WW 2 in 1941. (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) from 1945 to 1991. The six republics that formed the former Yugoslavia were : Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia, and Serbia. Following WW 1, Italy took for itself the southwestern portion of duchy of Carniola, the county of Gorizia-Gradisca, the margraviate of Istria, the town of Trieste, the southern portion of the county of Tyrol, city of Zadar (formerly part of the Kingdom of Dalmatia), and the islands of Cherso/Ceres, Lusino/Los^inj, and Lagosta/Lastovo. The 1947 (WW 2) peace treaty recognized Yugoslavia's acquisition of the former Italian territory. This included Dalmatian city of Zadar/Zara and the islands of Cres/Cherso, Los^inj/Lusino, and Lastovo/Lagosta, as well as former city of Rijeka/Fiume and, farther north, western Slovenia and part of Istria. 1867-1918 Istria was part of of Austria under the dual Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. 1918-1947 Istria was part of Italy, not Croatia or Yugoslavia. Today, Trieste is not part of Istria nor of Croatia, but of Italy. In 1947, the Free Territory of Trieste was created . Zone A (city of Trieste) was administered by Anglo-American forces and Zone B by the Yugoslavs. In 1954, the Free Territory of Trieste was abolished. Zone B was given to former Yugoslavia and Zone A was given to Italy.

I looked at the manifest for you and it lists the town of Birth as Trnovo, Austria. But also it lists him as Croatian. I would try looking at his town of birth for his church records. Good luck, Dave On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:05:16 -0600 "Margaret B. Erbes" <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> writes: > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according > the > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same > as the > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same > town but > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before > if anyone > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering > if > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the > name of > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your > translation!) > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest > with a > fresh eye. > > I sure would appreciate it! > > Peg Erbes > >

My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according the Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same as the town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same town but one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before if anyone had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering if anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the name of the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your translation!) I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest with a fresh eye. I sure would appreciate it! Peg Erbes

Try: http://www.ljubljana.si/interest/outsidethetouristtrail/ Trnovo is one of the oldest districts of Ljubljana, Slovenia. There is also a Tnovo in Bosnia and an area near the Macedonian/Greek border. Google has many pages of Trnovo listings, few in English. Roanne ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID N MOTHKOVICH" <dave9759@juno.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Bukovic from an unknown town > I looked at the manifest for you and it lists the town of Birth as > Trnovo, Austria. > But also it lists him as Croatian. > I would try looking at his town of birth for his church records. > Good luck, > Dave > On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 21:05:16 -0600 "Margaret B. Erbes" > <peg-erbes@wi.rr.com> writes: > > My grandfather, Ivan Bukovic, arrived in the US May 6, 1911 according > > the > > Ellis Island records. The town listed as last residence is the same > > as the > > town listed for nearest relative from "whence alien came". Same > > town but > > one listed as Austria and the other Slavonia. I asked once before > > if anyone > > had heard of this town (even Frank came up cold!) so I was wondering > > if > > anyone would mind looking at the manifest for me (but don't mind the > > name of > > the town as listed off the manifest as it may pre-dispose your > > translation!) > > I am afraid that I've seen the name so can't look at the manifest > > with a > > fresh eye. > > > > I sure would appreciate it! > > > > Peg Erbes > > > > >

Nekots@aol.com wrote: > > My Croatian grandparents were Emery Michael Stoken (15 Oct 1881) and Frances > Galinac Stoken (?/?/1884). According to the 1920 census, Frances came to > America in 1902. An ink mark covers the year Emery arrived in America. Family > history, what little I've learned, has them both coming from the same village > but not knowing each other until they met on the way to America. They married > in November of 1903 in Fayette County, Uniontown Pennsylvania. > > According to his Social Security Application in 1936, Emery was born in Jaska > or Jasko, Austria Hungary. His parents were listed as Matthew Stoken & > Katherine (no last name). > > According to the children's baptism certificates after 1904, both were from > Vivodina on some and Jaskovo on others. In church baptism records of the > children Stoken is also spelled Stokan. > > I've not been able to find Emery Stoken or Frances Galinac in the Ellis > Island web site. Emery does not sound like a Croatian first name. > > I did find Frances Galinac's brother Joseph Galinac (5 Jan 1887) in the Ellis > Island records. He's listed as Josip Galinac, age 16, arriving May 12, 1903, > from Jaska, Austria-Croatian. He was in route to his sister Francisco Galinac > in the Uniontown Pennsylvania area. Joseph's Social Security application > listed his parents as Joseph & Katherine Popovic or Popovich. Joseph's first > wife was Bara (Barbara) Doljac who he married in 1906. She was from Vivodina > also. Her parents were listed as George Doljac & Catherine Pecanich. > > What should be my next step with the information I have? > Vivodina & Jaska must be close to each other? > > Henry Stoken, Cleveland Ohio > I'm interested in joining any Croatian (my father's side) and Slovenian (my > mother's side) groups in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Vivodina is located 30 miles WSW of Zagreb. Jaska (Jastrebarsko) is located 20 miles WSW of Zagreb, Croatia. Jas^kovo is located 29.7 miles WSW of Zagreb. Parish of Vivodina, Croatia lies in the county of Ozalj. Ozalj wraps itself around the Slovenian city of Metlika, separated by the Kupa river border of the two countries. Many of the surnames of Vivodina ocurr on both sides of the Croatia/Slovenia border. Surnames Doljac and PecaRich are associated with Vivodina. http://www.feefhs.org/cro/vs/surnames.html Croatian telephone directory lists 11 surname S^tokan under Karlovac county, including 3 surnames listed under Jas^kovo. Directory also lists 21 surname Galinac under Karlovac county, including 3 surnames listed under Ozalj. Ozalj is located 27.9 miles WSW of Zagreb. Fayette CO and Westmoreland CO PA and Uniontown were in the coal mining region of SW PA near Pittsburgh. Emery (E) Imre (H) Emerik (C) ? The Slovenian telephone directory lists the surname Galinac under Metlika. Probably 160 surname Stoken bearers just in the U.S. Perhaps 120 surname Stokan bearers just in the U.S.

My Croatian grandparents were Emery Michael Stoken (15 Oct 1881) and Frances Galinac Stoken (?/?/1884). According to the 1920 census, Frances came to America in 1902. An ink mark covers the year Emery arrived in America. Family history, what little I've learned, has them both coming from the same village but not knowing each other until they met on the way to America. They married in November of 1903 in Fayette County, Uniontown Pennsylvania. According to his Social Security Application in 1936, Emery was born in Jaska or Jasko, Austria Hungary. His parents were listed as Matthew Stoken & Katherine (no last name). According to the children's baptism certificates after 1904, both were from Vivodina on some and Jaskovo on others. In church baptism records of the children Stoken is also spelled Stokan. I've not been able to find Emery Stoken or Frances Galinac in the Ellis Island web site. Emery does not sound like a Croatian first name. I did find Frances Galinac's brother Joseph Galinac (5 Jan 1887) in the Ellis Island records. He's listed as Josip Galinac, age 16, arriving May 12, 1903, from Jaska, Austria-Croatian. He was in route to his sister Francisco Galinac in the Uniontown Pennsylvania area. Joseph's Social Security application listed his parents as Joseph & Katherine Popovic or Popovich. Joseph's first wife was Bara (Barbara) Doljac who he married in 1906. She was from Vivodina also. Her parents were listed as George Doljac & Catherine Pecanich. What should be my next step with the information I have? Vivodina & Jaska must be close to each other? Henry Stoken, Cleveland Ohio I'm interested in joining any Croatian (my father's side) and Slovenian (my mother's side) groups in the Cleveland, Ohio area.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] What has happened to List? > > > Robert Jerin wrote: > > > > I have had no messages for several days now. > > > > What has happened to the List? > > > > Robert Jerin > > In March 2002, 201 messages were posted. > > Last CROATIA-L message dated 30 March 2002 > Last CROATIA-D message dated 31 March 2002 > > In April 2002, 1 message posted. > > Your message dated 3 April 2002 above. > > You are currently subscribed to ML as is everyone who hasn't > unsubscribed from CROATIA-L. > Number of new subscribers to ML has been increasing.. > > Perhaps everyone is taking an Easter break ? > or some are using direct e-mail messages ? > > v > Frank Kurcina > Thanks Robert

I have had no messages for several days now. What has happened to the List? Robert Jerin

Robert Jerin wrote: > > I have had no messages for several days now. > > What has happened to the List? > > Robert Jerin In March 2002, 201 messages were posted. Last CROATIA-L message dated 30 March 2002 Last CROATIA-D message dated 31 March 2002 In April 2002, 1 message posted. Your message dated 3 April 2002 above. You are currently subscribed to ML as is everyone who hasn't unsubscribed from CROATIA-L. Number of new subscribers to ML has been increasing.. Perhaps everyone is taking an Easter break ? or some are using direct e-mail messages ? v Frank Kurcina

>Forwarded to the list from the Yahoo Croatia board. If anyone knows >of this family, please contact the original poster at Yahoo, address >below. I have no further information. Ashley > >**************************** > Hope to trace the history and heritage >of the POZGAY family lineage. Members emigrated from Molvice >Croatia, near Samobor, to Chicago Illinois USA early 1900s. Any help >or suggestions will be very appreciated! P. > >To reply: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/croatiangenealogical/post?act=reply&messageNum=271 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --

MKVIRG@aol.com wrote: > > I totally agree with Jim, that you should check out the alternate website for > Ellis Island. I have been looking for Janos Virgulak, and his son, John, who > according to John's Declaration of Intent stated that he came to America on > the Red Starline ship, The Vaderland, into the Port of New York on April 8, > 1902. I found Janos' wife Maria, and their three other children coming into > the US on the Ellis Island site, but by pure luck. Putting in the name > Virgulak, I got 1 hit, and it was not a relative, in fact, reading the > original Manifest the name did not look like Virgulak. I checked all of the > close hits and the alternate spelling hits, and nothing came up. Finally just > put in Ver** for the last name, thinking that sounded more like Virgulak than > Vir. I knew the name of the ship, the Nieuw Amsterdam, and the arrival, May > 21, 1907. I got a hit for Istvan Ver, who was on the Nieuw Amsterdam, for the > date of May 21, 1907, but the age was off by quite a few years. Long story > short, going through the text manifest, I found the right family, spelled > Virguljak. Now why the Ellis Island search engine did not connect Virguljak > with Virgulak, or at least as an alternate spelling is beyond me. I also > found Janos coming back over with his second son, Franjo, on September 11, > 1906, on the S.S. Kroonland, just as his Declaration of Intent states, but > their names are spelled Virguluk, and again the Ellis Island search engine > did not pick it up as close hits or an alternate hit. But, the other part of > this is that I could never find Janos and John coming in. Finally went on > Stephen Morse's site: http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ellis.html, and > put in the date, April 8, 1902, and sure enough, after some searching I found > the two of them listed on the Manifest for The Vaderland, arriving on April > 8, 1902, in the port of NY, just like the Declaration of Intent papers said. > But the last name was spelled Valyarik. Now, I am trying to figure out how > Virgulak became Valyarik. I do know it is them, the ages match up correctly, > and I spent the better part of the evening going through the entire manifest, > and those two were the only ones that come close. So, the moral of this very > long story is to check out Stephen Morse's website, and play around with the > name. Oh, and believe it or not, I could not find them on the Ellis Island > site, under Valyarik! Finally, after going through the entire manifest on the > pacbell site, I wrote down a few names that were very legible, and tried > those on the Ellis site, and just kept on checking for the year 1902 until I > came up with the right ship and date. And I did find them, under Malyarik! I, > for the life of me cannot understand how it was transcribed as that, unless > the people transcribing it were using a different manifest than what I saw. > It is definitely a "V". Now, for my question. Their last place of residence > is listed as Uj Loove. Anybody have any ideas where it is? Haven't checked > any thing out yet on it, but was wondering if anybody knew where it was. > Thanks for listening to my ramblings! And thanks for any help you can give. > Marge Duffy Virgulak Why didn't online Ellis Island Records connect surname Virgulak with Virguljak ? Aside from misspelling or possible bad transcription there are a number of reasons, e.g. Valyarik, Malyarik. The EIR transcribers were all 'volunteers' but I doubt many understood any foreign languages, especially Slavic ones. The Indexes to Passenger Lists for U.S. ports of entry use Soundex Code to locate surnames. Virgulak and Virguljak and other spellings would all be under V624. However, the online EIR doesn't use Soundex Code, but a new linguistics system that was developed specifically for their own purposes ? Don't know ethnicity of your surnames ? Three South Slavic languages use the letter 'lj', which is a single letter. In most Slavic languages the letter j is pron. y. For example, Jugoslavija = Yugoslavia. In Croatian 'lj' pron. ly. In Slovene 'lj' pron. ly, e.g. Ljubljana, the capital of Slovenia. In Serbian (Cyrillic) Jb = 'lj' and also is pron. ly. Re place names in my reply 30 April 2001 at this same mailing list. Before WW I, there was a Lábod located at Nagyatád which was the district seat for the Nagy-Atád járás (district) for Hungarian Somogy Megye (county) It is located 118 miles SW of Budapest, Hungary and across from the current Croatian border (about 30 miles west of Koprivnica, Croatia) You believed that Janos Virgulak, your great, grandfather-in-law (husband to Maria Paki - whose birthplace is listed as Beszurfa) was born there, and one of his sons was listed as being born in Nagy Atat. János Virgulak , who was Maria's husband, resided in Brownsville, PA, located in a coal-mining region in SW PA U.S. If Uj Loove had been poorly transcribed in ship manifest (where script letter S was misread as letter L) then it was újsóvé, formerly located in Bács-Bodrog megye, Hungary and now located in Serbia and called Ravno selo. Ravno selo is located 60 miles NW of Beograd, Serbia.

I also have had good luck with Steve Morse's sites this week. And I also have found family where it is clearly written correctly on the ship's manifest but was transcribed incorrectly at the Ellis Island Site. Is there anyway that we can notify someone at the Ellis Island site about the incorrect entry and have it corrected in case others have difficulty finding the same person? Kathy Meznarich Jacobs MKVIRG@aol.com wrote: > I totally agree with Jim, that you should check out the alternate website for > Ellis Island. I have been looking for Janos Virgulak, and his son, John, who > according to John's Declaration of Intent stated that he came to America on > the Red Starline ship, The Vaderland, into the Port of New York on April 8, > 1902. I found Janos' wife Maria, and their three other children coming into > the US on the Ellis Island site, but by pure luck. Putting in the name > Virgulak, I got 1 hit, and it was not a relative, in fact, reading the > original Manifest the name did not look like Virgulak. I checked all of the > close hits and the alternate spelling hits, and nothing came up. Finally just > put in Ver** for the last name, thinking that sounded more like Virgulak than > Vir. I knew the name of the ship, the Nieuw Amsterdam, and the arrival, May > 21, 1907. I got a hit for Istvan Ver, who was on the Nieuw Amsterdam, for the > date of May 21, 1907, but the age was off by quite a few years. Long story > short, going through the text manifest, I found the right family, spelled > Virguljak. Now why the Ellis Island search engine did not connect Virguljak > with Virgulak, or at least as an alternate spelling is beyond me. I also > found Janos coming back over with his second son, Franjo, on September 11, > 1906, on the S.S. Kroonland, just as his Declaration of Intent states, but > their names are spelled Virguluk, and again the Ellis Island search engine > did not pick it up as close hits or an alternate hit. But, the other part of > this is that I could never find Janos and John coming in. Finally went on > Stephen Morse's site: http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ellis.html, and > put in the date, April 8, 1902, and sure enough, after some searching I found > the two of them listed on the Manifest for The Vaderland, arriving on April > 8, 1902, in the port of NY, just like the Declaration of Intent papers said. > But the last name was spelled Valyarik. Now, I am trying to figure out how > Virgulak became Valyarik. I do know it is them, the ages match up correctly, > and I spent the better part of the evening going through the entire manifest, > and those two were the only ones that come close. So, the moral of this very > long story is to check out Stephen Morse's website, and play around with the > name. Oh, and believe it or not, I could not find them on the Ellis Island > site, under Valyarik! Finally, after going through the entire manifest on the > pacbell site, I wrote down a few names that were very legible, and tried > those on the Ellis site, and just kept on checking for the year 1902 until I > came up with the right ship and date. And I did find them, under Malyarik! I, > for the life of me cannot understand how it was transcribed as that, unless > the people transcribing it were using a different manifest than what I saw. > It is definitely a "V". Now, for my question. Their last place of residence > is listed as Uj Loove. Anybody have any ideas where it is? Haven't checked > any thing out yet on it, but was wondering if anybody knew where it was. > Thanks for listening to my ramblings! And thanks for any help you can give. > Marge Duffy Virgulak > > De nobis fabula narratur, their story is our story > Genealogy: Where you confuse the dead and irritate the living. > Jesus, A Never Ending Friend > "Friends are God's way of taking care of us" > Beannachtai agus Siochain > > AN IRISH BLESSING > > May God grant you always > A sunbeam to warm you > A moonbeam to charm you > A sheltering angel > So nothing can harm you > Laughter to cheer you > Faithful friends near you > And whenever you pray > Heaven to hear you > >

I totally agree with Jim, that you should check out the alternate website for Ellis Island. I have been looking for Janos Virgulak, and his son, John, who according to John's Declaration of Intent stated that he came to America on the Red Starline ship, The Vaderland, into the Port of New York on April 8, 1902. I found Janos' wife Maria, and their three other children coming into the US on the Ellis Island site, but by pure luck. Putting in the name Virgulak, I got 1 hit, and it was not a relative, in fact, reading the original Manifest the name did not look like Virgulak. I checked all of the close hits and the alternate spelling hits, and nothing came up. Finally just put in Ver** for the last name, thinking that sounded more like Virgulak than Vir. I knew the name of the ship, the Nieuw Amsterdam, and the arrival, May 21, 1907. I got a hit for Istvan Ver, who was on the Nieuw Amsterdam, for the date of May 21, 1907, but the age was off by quite a few years. Long story short, going through the text manifest, I found the right family, spelled Virguljak. Now why the Ellis Island search engine did not connect Virguljak with Virgulak, or at least as an alternate spelling is beyond me. I also found Janos coming back over with his second son, Franjo, on September 11, 1906, on the S.S. Kroonland, just as his Declaration of Intent states, but their names are spelled Virguluk, and again the Ellis Island search engine did not pick it up as close hits or an alternate hit. But, the other part of this is that I could never find Janos and John coming in. Finally went on Stephen Morse's site: http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ellis.html, and put in the date, April 8, 1902, and sure enough, after some searching I found the two of them listed on the Manifest for The Vaderland, arriving on April 8, 1902, in the port of NY, just like the Declaration of Intent papers said. But the last name was spelled Valyarik. Now, I am trying to figure out how Virgulak became Valyarik. I do know it is them, the ages match up correctly, and I spent the better part of the evening going through the entire manifest, and those two were the only ones that come close. So, the moral of this very long story is to check out Stephen Morse's website, and play around with the name. Oh, and believe it or not, I could not find them on the Ellis Island site, under Valyarik! Finally, after going through the entire manifest on the pacbell site, I wrote down a few names that were very legible, and tried those on the Ellis site, and just kept on checking for the year 1902 until I came up with the right ship and date. And I did find them, under Malyarik! I, for the life of me cannot understand how it was transcribed as that, unless the people transcribing it were using a different manifest than what I saw. It is definitely a "V". Now, for my question. Their last place of residence is listed as Uj Loove. Anybody have any ideas where it is? Haven't checked any thing out yet on it, but was wondering if anybody knew where it was. Thanks for listening to my ramblings! And thanks for any help you can give. Marge Duffy Virgulak De nobis fabula narratur, their story is our story Genealogy: Where you confuse the dead and irritate the living. Jesus, A Never Ending Friend "Friends are God's way of taking care of us" Beannachtai agus Siochain AN IRISH BLESSING May God grant you always A sunbeam to warm you A moonbeam to charm you A sheltering angel So nothing can harm you Laughter to cheer you Faithful friends near you And whenever you pray Heaven to hear you