----- Original Message ----- From: "Connie" <Connie.1@t-online.de> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Pongerc Surname > I'm looking for people with the surname Pongerc in Croatia. Unfortunately I don't have any information on the localities and the surname was not found on the Croatian online phone directory. Thank you! Are you certain of the sp? Searching Ellis Island records from the link below for ALL names beginning with PONG, following was found: Pongrac, Pongracz from Croatia but zero listing for PONGERC from anyplace. http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ellis.html Robert Jerin >

I'm looking for Croatian descendants of Marija, divorced Sotelsek (maiden name unknown). She was born in Slovenia and died in Zagreb, Croatia. She was married to Franc Sotelsek and used to live around 1920 in Blatno, Slovenia. I don't know the date she went to Croatia. Thank you for any help

I'm looking for people with the surname Pongerc in Croatia. Unfortunately I don't have any information on the localities and the surname was not found on the Croatian online phone directory. Thank you!

----- Original Message ----- From: <TodeyL@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > Thanks Robert and Frank for you help and very interesting dialogue about the > manifests. > > I guess maybe I just want this to be my grandfather after all the searching I > have done. I have reviewed every Tadej name that I could find on Ellis Island > and this was the first time it came close to sounding like him. I know that > the Ivan Tadej Robert mentioned is not him. My great-grandfather's name was > Tom and he stayed in Fuzine. > > I think I may have just discovered what county in Illinois my grandfather > first went to work in the mines, so I am going to write for Declaration of > Intent papers. And I will definitely look at microfilms at my local LDS > Church. > > I didn't mention previously that I can't find my other grandfather from > Fuzine - Ivan Mihaljevic on Ellis. I have his papers that say he boarded at > Harve, France on vessel LaSavoya and arrived at port of New York on 8 July > 1900. I think that his brother's name was on 1892 Stuttgart manifest on page > 0114. His name was Franjo Mihaljevic, age 14, born in Fuzine but listed as > Bohemia. The family knew that he came at a very young age. > > I really appreciate your help, Frank & Robert. I enjoy reading both of your > comments to everyone. > Thank again > Louise Hello Louise, I hate to say this but I am going to add some more mystery to your search! As far as a ship called LaSavoya I believe that sp should be La Savoie. I used the "alternate" Ellis Is search page and found the following: 1. Ivan Mihaljeviz Fuzine 1900 28 married 2. Franjo Mihaljeviz Fuzine 1900 18 single destination for both was to brother Vinko in Rathbun, Iowa (?) ship was La Gascogne port of departure was Le Havre, Seine-Inferior, France I used the web page searched for name begins with mihal, gender, dates 1892-1924 and that is what I found. You can enter any number of letters that you want, a first name can be added or just an initial. You can even add the ship name, click on boat spellings for correct sp. http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ Of course MIHALJEVIZ does not exist in Croatia and I doubt that surname ever existed there. Robert >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Birkholz, James" <James.Birkholz@usa.okmetic.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Skuban from "Sloyerska" > On her son's birth certificate in Akron, Ohio, Helena Skuban's birthplace is > listed as > Cicilia Sloyerska > > Some time ago, I was told that "Sloyerska" meant Slovenia (I think). > > Well I knew where Slovenia is, it was on the opposite side of Croatia from > the Bjelovar district where her husband was listed as being born. > (Incorrectly spelled "Grubisko Polje" instead of "Grubisno Polje".) > > Yesterday, I'm looking at maps of the Bjelovar area and am shocked to see > Slovenia directly to the east (and a little south) of Bjelovar (but still > part of Croatia). > So I check another map and confirm that it was where I thought it was, to > the NW of Croatia. Then I see that they are spelled differently. > The one by Bjelovar is "Slavonia". Huh! > > So now I'm wondering if "Sloyerska" (or more probably a similar spelling) > can be tied to "Slavonia". This would be helpful, as the only Skubans in the > online Croatian phone directory are in Vukovar, which I believe is in this > Slavonian part of Croatia. > > I'm half convinced that the "Cicilia" reference is a mistaken answer to the > questions and refers to the father's grandmother's name, rather than the > mother's birthplace. > > I've tried checking the old version of the online phone directory, using the > list towns by county feature, for Bjelovar, Vukovar and Osjecko districts. > CELIJE in the Vukovar district might be the Cicilia referred to in the birth > certificate. > James > Hello James, Ah, here we go again adding questions instead of answers! I searched Bjelovar county phone directory for names begining with SKU and found no listings for SKUBAN, 1 for SKUBIN however I found several for SKUKAN. Checking SUKBAN, SKUBIN at Ellis Is I found nothing close to Helena for any of the listings I did finda Jana SKUKAN, which is a diminutive of Ivana, arr 1913 from Sasovac which is near Grubisno Polje, destination Brownsville, PA. Ivana is a feminine form of John. Now what would someone with that name choose as an English name? Perhaps SKUBAN should be SKUKAN? Robert

hi! my understanding is that tadejevic means son of tadej. i am curious about the possibility of being related to the person who is researching the name tadej because fuzine is close to sunger-where my tadejevic's are from.

Thanks Robert and Frank for you help and very interesting dialogue about the manifests. I guess maybe I just want this to be my grandfather after all the searching I have done. I have reviewed every Tadej name that I could find on Ellis Island and this was the first time it came close to sounding like him. I know that the Ivan Tadej Robert mentioned is not him. My great-grandfather's name was Tom and he stayed in Fuzine. I think I may have just discovered what county in Illinois my grandfather first went to work in the mines, so I am going to write for Declaration of Intent papers. And I will definitely look at microfilms at my local LDS Church. I didn't mention previously that I can't find my other grandfather from Fuzine - Ivan Mihaljevic on Ellis. I have his papers that say he boarded at Harve, France on vessel LaSavoya and arrived at port of New York on 8 July 1900. I think that his brother's name was on 1892 Stuttgart manifest on page 0114. His name was Franjo Mihaljevic, age 14, born in Fuzine but listed as Bohemia. The family knew that he came at a very young age. I really appreciate your help, Frank & Robert. I enjoy reading both of your comments to everyone. Thank again Louise

Could that be Stajarsjo in Slovenia? Donald Marinkovich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Skuban from "Sloyerska" > > > "Birkholz, James" wrote: > > > > On her son's birth certificate in Akron, Ohio, Helena Skuban's birthplace is > > listed as > > Cicilia Sloyerska > > > > Some time ago, I was told that "Sloyerska" meant Slovenia (I think). > > > > Well I knew where Slovenia is, it was on the opposite side of Croatia from > > the Bjelovar district where her husband was listed as being born. > > (Incorrectly spelled "Grubisko Polje" instead of "Grubisno Polje".) > > > > Yesterday, I'm looking at maps of the Bjelovar area and am shocked to see > > Slovenia directly to the east (and a little south) of Bjelovar (but still > > part of Croatia). > > So I check another map and confirm that it was where I thought it was, to > > the NW of Croatia. Then I see that they are spelled differently. > > The one by Bjelovar is "Slavonia". Huh! > > > > So now I'm wondering if "Sloyerska" (or more probably a similar spelling) > > can be tied to "Slavonia". This would be helpful, as the only Skubans in the > > online Croatian phone directory are in Vukovar, which I believe is in this > > Slavonian part of Croatia. > > > > I'm half convinced that the "Cicilia" reference is a mistaken answer to the > > questions and refers to the father's grandmother's name, rather than the > > mother's birthplace. > > > > I've tried checking the old version of the online phone directory, using the > > list towns by county feature, for Bjelovar, Vukovar and Osjecko districts. > > CELIJE in the Vukovar district might be the Cicilia referred to in the birth > > certificate. > > James > > > You bring up some interesting possibilities. > In Slovene, the country known as Slovenia is Slovénija > and Slovakia is Slovás^ka. > While Slavonia (Croatia-Slavonia) is known as Slavonija. > > Some who seek Slovenija (Slovenia) think it is the the same > country as Slovakia (Slovensko) > > Slovenia was once a part of former Yugoslavia in the Balkans. > Slovakia was a part of former Czechoslovakia in Central Europe. > Now both are independent republics. > Of course, pre-WW I, neither Slovakia or Slovenia existed, while > Croatia-Slavonia did. > > If you write to Slovenija and don't use Slovenia, the letter > probably gets mailed to Slovakia. If you use Slovensko for Slovakia the > letter probably ends up in Slovenia ? > Today, U.S. Postal Service only recognizes these countries under > "Slovenia" and "Slovak Republic". > > When I first read your query ignored the name as being a place name > because Cicilia had looked like a reference to a female first name. > Cicely/Cecilia (E) is Slovenian given name Cecilija (dim. Cilka) But, > to the best of my knowledge was not a Croatian name. > > Or perhaps, Cicilia was a reference to Celije ? > In 1991, the Serbs ethnically cleansed the Croats in eastern > Slavonia in 3 mos., especially in Celije, Erdut, Aljmas, and Dalj. > > v > Frank Kurcina >

"Birkholz, James" wrote: > > On her son's birth certificate in Akron, Ohio, Helena Skuban's birthplace is > listed as > Cicilia Sloyerska > > Some time ago, I was told that "Sloyerska" meant Slovenia (I think). > > Well I knew where Slovenia is, it was on the opposite side of Croatia from > the Bjelovar district where her husband was listed as being born. > (Incorrectly spelled "Grubisko Polje" instead of "Grubisno Polje".) > > Yesterday, I'm looking at maps of the Bjelovar area and am shocked to see > Slovenia directly to the east (and a little south) of Bjelovar (but still > part of Croatia). > So I check another map and confirm that it was where I thought it was, to > the NW of Croatia. Then I see that they are spelled differently. > The one by Bjelovar is "Slavonia". Huh! > > So now I'm wondering if "Sloyerska" (or more probably a similar spelling) > can be tied to "Slavonia". This would be helpful, as the only Skubans in the > online Croatian phone directory are in Vukovar, which I believe is in this > Slavonian part of Croatia. > > I'm half convinced that the "Cicilia" reference is a mistaken answer to the > questions and refers to the father's grandmother's name, rather than the > mother's birthplace. > > I've tried checking the old version of the online phone directory, using the > list towns by county feature, for Bjelovar, Vukovar and Osjecko districts. > CELIJE in the Vukovar district might be the Cicilia referred to in the birth > certificate. > James You bring up some interesting possibilities. In Slovene, the country known as Slovenia is Slovénija and Slovakia is Slovás^ka. While Slavonia (Croatia-Slavonia) is known as Slavonija. Some who seek Slovenija (Slovenia) think it is the the same country as Slovakia (Slovensko) Slovenia was once a part of former Yugoslavia in the Balkans. Slovakia was a part of former Czechoslovakia in Central Europe. Now both are independent republics. Of course, pre-WW I, neither Slovakia or Slovenia existed, while Croatia-Slavonia did. If you write to Slovenija and don't use Slovenia, the letter probably gets mailed to Slovakia. If you use Slovensko for Slovakia the letter probably ends up in Slovenia ? Today, U.S. Postal Service only recognizes these countries under "Slovenia" and "Slovak Republic". When I first read your query ignored the name as being a place name because Cicilia had looked like a reference to a female first name. Cicely/Cecilia (E) is Slovenian given name Cecilija (dim. Cilka) But, to the best of my knowledge was not a Croatian name. Or perhaps, Cicilia was a reference to Celije ? In 1991, the Serbs ethnically cleansed the Croats in eastern Slavonia in 3 mos., especially in Celije, Erdut, Aljmas, and Dalj. v Frank Kurcina

On her son's birth certificate in Akron, Ohio, Helena Skuban's birthplace is listed as Cicilia Sloyerska Some time ago, I was told that "Sloyerska" meant Slovenia (I think). Well I knew where Slovenia is, it was on the opposite side of Croatia from the Bjelovar district where her husband was listed as being born. (Incorrectly spelled "Grubisko Polje" instead of "Grubisno Polje".) Yesterday, I'm looking at maps of the Bjelovar area and am shocked to see Slovenia directly to the east (and a little south) of Bjelovar (but still part of Croatia). So I check another map and confirm that it was where I thought it was, to the NW of Croatia. Then I see that they are spelled differently. The one by Bjelovar is "Slavonia". Huh! So now I'm wondering if "Sloyerska" (or more probably a similar spelling) can be tied to "Slavonia". This would be helpful, as the only Skubans in the online Croatian phone directory are in Vukovar, which I believe is in this Slavonian part of Croatia. I'm half convinced that the "Cicilia" reference is a mistaken answer to the questions and refers to the father's grandmother's name, rather than the mother's birthplace. I've tried checking the old version of the online phone directory, using the list towns by county feature, for Bjelovar, Vukovar and Osjecko districts. CELIJE in the Vukovar district might be the Cicilia referred to in the birth certificate. James

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > Suzanne Jerin wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > > > > > > > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the > > 16 > > > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His > > name > > > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a > > list I > > > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and > > the > > > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes > > me > > > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to > > go > > > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age > > 20. > > > > Thank you for your help. > > > > Louise > > > > > > > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > > > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > > > listing > > > with little surname information. > > > > Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for > > later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those > > after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. > > > > I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the > > earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have > > looked at > > a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship > > manifests. > > > > I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr > > Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated > > Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest > > used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly > > above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence > > from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. > > > > This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that > > time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology > > of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns > > for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the > > information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you > > mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, > > poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair > > color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of > > birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and > > you would have about 30 columns. > > > > The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain > > more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, > > further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value > > to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following > > information: > > > > Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival > > Date of Arrival in the U. S. > > Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship > > Personal Information about Each Passenger including: > > Full Name > > Age, Sex and Marital Status > > Occupation > > Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. > > If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where > > If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship > > The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 > > A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the > > Passenger was added in 1906 > > The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from > > which they came was added in 1907 > > The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 > > > > I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to > > have about 15 columns > > 1897-1901 had 21 > > 1902- 1906 had 22 > > 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point > > 1908-1916 had 29 > > 1917-1923 had 33 > > 1924 had 36 > > > > Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the > > immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! > > > > Robert Jerin > > I think you made an excellent presentation describing the evolution of > surname information contained in Immigration Passenger Lists 1892-1924, > > Over the years have reviewed hundreds of ship manifests microfilms, so > also know what kind of information would be listed on them. > > But, the later online Ellis Island ship manifests also don't always > match > the actual ship manifests available, from say the LDS-Mormons or > National > Archives and Records Administration (NARA) centers. > > Basically, the Ellis Island database seems to be based on the lists > prepared > by the shipping lines at the ports of departure with emigrant > information > and before the vessels actually sailed to the U.S. port of entry (NYC) > > Generally the NARA and LDS microfilms contain the emigrant information > written down by the ship personnel, usually the day before vessel's > arrival at the various U.S. ports of entry, including Ellis Island (NYC) > > There are Passenger Lists and there are Passenger Lists ! > > But, certain issues with the NARA ship manifests versus online EIR ship > manifests do disturb me. > Possible different surname information listed and/or surnames missing. > > An example: > > The manifest on the Ellis Island Web site for my own parental surnames > arrival in > the U.S. (1900) didn't match the actual Passenger List microfilms I had > previously > reviewed line by line at local LDS FHC. > Here, I had reviewed the actual ship manifest listing of approx. 1,200 > steerage > class passengers, line by line, four times. > For example, on NARA microfilm I had read at FHC - of 6 supposed names > on ship > manifest for date of arrival , could only locate my father's name, age > 9. > First names listed in ship manifests from German ports were known to > have > been often changed to German name equivalents by some German ship > personnel. > > On the other hand, the Ellis Island manifest listed my GM; two uncles, > ages > 2 and 4 ; an unknown aunt, age 16, but no father ? > And here their first names were in Hungarian. > > Immigrant ship manifests certainly changed over time ! > > But, for same ship and same date of arrival ? > EIR being a later volunteer project is possibly using different sources > for > their ship manifest entries ? > And the older LDS and NARA Indexes to PLs used Soundex Code. > EIR project developed their own special linguistics code for surnames > which is > not as inclusive as the old Soundex Code for variant surname spellings. > > Aside, from possible surname and place name mispellings or transcribing > errors, > in EIR, which above set of ship manifests has greater validity in > surname > research ? > > Hate to think I must now use online EIR, Morse, plus the actual FHC > microfilms to arrive > at correct consensus. > > v > Frank Kurcina Thanks for that info now I am wondering if my GGM has another ship manifest! Her manifest was much like the one that we discussed above. Your description above is the first time that I have have heard anyone mention the possibility of 2 sets of ship manifests. Have you inquired with EIR about this? Oh and it was not my wife, Suzanne, who posted it was me. Don't know why her address came up as mine is the default on this PC Thanks Robert

Thanks for the info. I believe (don't have the file at hand) that I noticed that record a few years ago and ordered his death certificate, but didn't find a match. His birth date is off (our Mato is Sep 17th 1886) and I believe a son (John) was listed as the informant (our Mato died without starting a new family we think). I'll keep the link on file, as it may come in handy when we get a solid lead. Thanks again! > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Jerin [SMTP:rjerin@adelphia.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 6:34 AM > To: Birkholz James > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Belobraidic from Grubisno Polje > > Hello James, > > Here is a SSDI from Ancestry.com. This appears to be closest by name and > date. As far as birthdates, as known, I have found that many times they > are not correct. This may be worth a try. > > MAT BELOBRAYDIC Request Information (SS-5) > SSN 492-09-5694 Residence: 63116 Saint Louis, Saint Louis City, MO > Born 6 Oct 1885 Last Benefit: > Died Oct 1966 Issued: MO (Before 1951) > ---snip--- > And a link for Croatian Roman Catholic Churches in America. > > http://www.stjeromecroatian.org/eng/usacanada.html > > Robert Jerin > >

Suzanne Jerin wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> > To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > > > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the > 16 > > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His > name > > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a > list I > > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and > the > > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes > me > > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to > go > > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age > 20. > > > Thank you for your help. > > > Louise > > > > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > > listing > > with little surname information. > > Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for > later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those > after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. > > I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the > earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have > looked at > a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship > manifests. > > I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr > Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated > Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest > used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly > above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence > from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. > > This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that > time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology > of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns > for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the > information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you > mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, > poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair > color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of > birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and > you would have about 30 columns. > > The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain > more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, > further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value > to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following > information: > > Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival > Date of Arrival in the U. S. > Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship > Personal Information about Each Passenger including: > Full Name > Age, Sex and Marital Status > Occupation > Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. > If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where > If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship > The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 > A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the > Passenger was added in 1906 > The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from > which they came was added in 1907 > The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 > > I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to > have about 15 columns > 1897-1901 had 21 > 1902- 1906 had 22 > 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point > 1908-1916 had 29 > 1917-1923 had 33 > 1924 had 36 > > Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the > immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! > > Robert Jerin I think you made an excellent presentation describing the evolution of surname information contained in Immigration Passenger Lists 1892-1924, Over the years have reviewed hundreds of ship manifests microfilms, so also know what kind of information would be listed on them. But, the later online Ellis Island ship manifests also don't always match the actual ship manifests available, from say the LDS-Mormons or National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) centers. Basically, the Ellis Island database seems to be based on the lists prepared by the shipping lines at the ports of departure with emigrant information and before the vessels actually sailed to the U.S. port of entry (NYC) Generally the NARA and LDS microfilms contain the emigrant information written down by the ship personnel, usually the day before vessel's arrival at the various U.S. ports of entry, including Ellis Island (NYC) There are Passenger Lists and there are Passenger Lists ! But, certain issues with the NARA ship manifests versus online EIR ship manifests do disturb me. Possible different surname information listed and/or surnames missing. An example: The manifest on the Ellis Island Web site for my own parental surnames arrival in the U.S. (1900) didn't match the actual Passenger List microfilms I had previously reviewed line by line at local LDS FHC. Here, I had reviewed the actual ship manifest listing of approx. 1,200 steerage class passengers, line by line, four times. For example, on NARA microfilm I had read at FHC - of 6 supposed names on ship manifest for date of arrival , could only locate my father's name, age 9. First names listed in ship manifests from German ports were known to have been often changed to German name equivalents by some German ship personnel. On the other hand, the Ellis Island manifest listed my GM; two uncles, ages 2 and 4 ; an unknown aunt, age 16, but no father ? And here their first names were in Hungarian. Immigrant ship manifests certainly changed over time ! But, for same ship and same date of arrival ? EIR being a later volunteer project is possibly using different sources for their ship manifest entries ? And the older LDS and NARA Indexes to PLs used Soundex Code. EIR project developed their own special linguistics code for surnames which is not as inclusive as the old Soundex Code for variant surname spellings. Aside, from possible surname and place name mispellings or transcribing errors, in EIR, which above set of ship manifests has greater validity in surname research ? Hate to think I must now use online EIR, Morse, plus the actual FHC microfilms to arrive at correct consensus. v Frank Kurcina

Hello James and Tami, I recall when you began your search, but can not recall what was mentioned. First checking US phone numbers and Social Security Death Indexes finds no listings for BELOBRIDICH, however there are listings for BELOBRAJDIC, BELOBRAJDICH, BELOBRAYDICH and BELOBRAIDICH. Have you checked out any of those Social Security records or checked with any of the phone listings to see if there is a relationship? Belo means white and perhaps brajd (sounds like bride) is from the Croatian word brada, meaning bird. You might try Emailing to the Croatian Fraternal Union in Pittsburgh PA, which is the largest Croatian organization in the world, having been founded in 1894! If you Email to them put ATTN: Ed Pazo in the subject line and Ed may search for you, although being a member would make it more likely. You will find a link to the CFU in my link list and their Email address at that web page. http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/index.html Here is a link to Midwest Croatians, with some Email addresses for contacts in Detroit area. Don't know if they will reply but hey who knows! http://www.midwest-croatians.org/calendar.html#detroit Also you may try Saint Lucy's in Troy Michigan (prior to 1992 this church was called St. Anthony's Croatian Catholic Church) and located in Detroit. St. Lucy Croatian Catholic Church, Troy 200 E. Wattles Rd. (248) 619-9910 Hope this is of some help Robert Jerin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Birkholz, James" <James.Birkholz@usa.okmetic.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] Belobraidic from Grubisno Polje > Do you know of any resources off the beaten track that might help learn more > about Mato Belobraidic's life in the US? Here are some details. > > It is unknown whether he was married when he immigrated about 1905, or > whether he married shortly after. Born in Grubisno Polje late in 1886, he is > in Akron, Ohio for the 1910 census. 1910 was also the year of the birth of > his second of three children (Dragntin or Charles), whose birth certificate > declares Mato was a Rubberworker. I believe the census has his name as > "Michal Belobridich". > > Two years later, the birth of his third and last known child started a > series of tragic events that have caused problems for his children and > grandchildren ever since. His wife, Helen Skuban became infected during > childbirth and the high fever damaged her brain, leaving her a paranoid > schizophrenic. Mato placed her in the state hospital, and the three children > in an orphanage. > > He then disappears, surfacing in 1925 to visit his wife in the hospital, > telling the staff that he was working in a bath house in Detroit. > > Later in life, he called one or more of his children, seeking assistance in > his last year or years of life. One daughter received some of his > possessions after he died including a trunk that was intended for his only > son. This son (Dragntin/Charles) however, was so bitter from the hard life > that he lived as an orphan, that he refused to have anything to do with it. > This man and the one sister who was adopted by a loving family have died in > the last 10 years. The third sister disappeared after being turned away from > the orphanage when she turned 18. She turns up in correspondence with an > orphanage in San Francisco in 1932 at age 20. And she once called her > brother for help but was treated in the same manner as her father was. > > So we are trying to determine what happened to Mato. We don't even know when > or where he died, the descendants became interested too late to get reliable > information from his two children. And we'ld like to find out what happened > to the third child. > > So if you know of any Craoatian in the US resources for us to search, please > let me know. > > TIA, > James and Tami Birkholz >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Kurchina" <frankur@worldnet.att.net> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > > > TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the 16 > > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His name > > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a list I > > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and the > > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes me > > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to go > > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age 20. > > Thank you for your help. > > Louise > > > Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. > It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated > listing > with little surname information. Perhaps it is only abreviated in comparison to those that we look at for later years. And most of the manifest we seem to look at are for those after 1900, when the high point of immigration from A-H Empire occured. I thought about it and I recalled seeing similar manifests from the earliest years of Ellis Island, my own GGMs for instance, arr 1892. I have looked at a dozen or so manifests from those early years and have found similar ship manifests. I would suggest that this is the original ship manifest for SS Stuggart arr Port of New York Dec 16, 1892 signed by Ship's Master and witnessed dated Dec. 16, 1892. An interesting note is that on frame 70 the ship manifest used had Baltimore neatly crossed out and New York written, very elegantly above it. Also if you go back several frames you will find correspondence from Norddeutscher Lloyd regarding the passengers on this ship. This manifest has 16 columns. If you look at other ships arriving at that time some had a similar number of columns. If you look at the chronology of ship manifest useage and changes, below, and add the number of columns for items added in 1903 and 1907 that 7 columns were added for the information mentioned the total would be somewhere around the 30 you mention. Keep in mind the number of columns just for personal info, poligomy, anarchist, debtors prison, condition of health, height, hair color, eye color, complexion, money in possesion and country and town of birth add to the the addition of final destination and nearest relative and you would have about 30 columns. The Immigration Passenger Lists, which generally start after 1891, contain more information than the earlier Customs Passenger Lists. As noted below, further information was added in 1903, 1906, and 1907 which has great value to the genealogist researcher. These lists contain the following information: Ship's Name, its Master, its Port of Embarkation, and its Port of Arrival Date of Arrival in the U. S. Family Members or Others Who Immigrated on the Same Ship Personal Information about Each Passenger including: Full Name Age, Sex and Marital Status Occupation Last Residence and Destination in the U. S. If in the U. S. Before - If so, When and Where If Going to Join a Relative, the Relative's Name, Address, and Relationship The Race of the Passenger was included beginning in 1903 A Personal Description, the Birthplace, and other information about the Passenger was added in 1906 The Name and Address of the alien's Nearest Relative in the Country from which they came was added in 1907 The Destination in the U. S. was added in 1907 I did a random sample and found that 1892 through 1896 manifests appeared to have about 15 columns 1897-1901 had 21 1902- 1906 had 22 1907 had 28, two page manifest seem to begin to appear at this point 1908-1916 had 29 1917-1923 had 33 1924 had 36 Scientific research? Hardly but it does show us one thing and that is the immigrant ship manifest has changed over time! Robert Jerin

Do you know of any resources off the beaten track that might help learn more about Mato Belobraidic's life in the US? Here are some details. It is unknown whether he was married when he immigrated about 1905, or whether he married shortly after. Born in Grubisno Polje late in 1886, he is in Akron, Ohio for the 1910 census. 1910 was also the year of the birth of his second of three children (Dragntin or Charles), whose birth certificate declares Mato was a Rubberworker. I believe the census has his name as "Michal Belobridich". Two years later, the birth of his third and last known child started a series of tragic events that have caused problems for his children and grandchildren ever since. His wife, Helen Skuban became infected during childbirth and the high fever damaged her brain, leaving her a paranoid schizophrenic. Mato placed her in the state hospital, and the three children in an orphanage. He then disappears, surfacing in 1925 to visit his wife in the hospital, telling the staff that he was working in a bath house in Detroit. Later in life, he called one or more of his children, seeking assistance in his last year or years of life. One daughter received some of his possessions after he died including a trunk that was intended for his only son. This son (Dragntin/Charles) however, was so bitter from the hard life that he lived as an orphan, that he refused to have anything to do with it. This man and the one sister who was adopted by a loving family have died in the last 10 years. The third sister disappeared after being turned away from the orphanage when she turned 18. She turns up in correspondence with an orphanage in San Francisco in 1932 at age 20. And she once called her brother for help but was treated in the same manner as her father was. So we are trying to determine what happened to Mato. We don't even know when or where he died, the descendants became interested too late to get reliable information from his two children. And we'ld like to find out what happened to the third child. So if you know of any Craoatian in the US resources for us to search, please let me know. TIA, James and Tami Birkholz

----- Original Message ----- From: <TodeyL@aol.com> To: <CROATIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Tadej on Passenger List > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the 16 > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His name > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. With so little info on this ship maniest how are you certain that this is Ivan TADEJ! >Were others from Fuzine sometimes > recorded as Bohemia? No. But others on that page do not appear to have Croatian names. But on the next page there appear to be some listed residence as Bohemia who have Croatian names. >Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a list I No. > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and the > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? You got one of those ship records that was really skinny on info, none of that info is there. It must have been up to the ship line as to what was on the manifest or perhaps different time periods different info was required. > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes me > forever - can someone please help? Perhaps. > Is this my grandfather? No idea! >All I have to go on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age 20 Hmm, I would not take that info as absolute too many time immigration and birthdates are off by a few years, perhaps due to memory and perhaps because b'dates did not have the importance then or perhaps they had to become older to gain employment. Here is another possiblilty Ivan TADEI arr 1898 age 15 from Hreljen, not far from Fuzine destination ILL (town not legible) to father Jakub 840 W Huron St. You can try this web page and search for "begins with" and type in just a few letters. http://home.pacbell.net/spmorse/ellis/ellis.html The LDS Church (Mormon) has the following microfilms available to order and rent at a local Family History Center near you. You can find more info about the FHCs in my links list. Also Tom Ninkovich has some excellent info on how to read those church records at the home page of my links list. Title Maticna knjiga, 1725-1916 Authors Rimokatolicka crkva. Zupa Fuzine (Main Author) Note Location Film Rodeni 1725-1778 VAULT INTL Film 1419068 Item 9 Rodeni 1778-1857 -- Vjencani 1815-1856 -- Umrli 1815-1857 VAULT INTL Film 1419069 Items 1 - 6 Rodeni 1858-1889 FHL INTL Film 2084749 Item 2 Umrli 1858-1888 FHL INTL Film 2084749 Item 3 Umrli 1888-1916 VAULT INTL Film 2084750 Item 1 Rodeni = birth Umrli = death http://www.croatia-in-english.com/rj/index.html Robert Jerin Croatian Heritage Museum Cleveland Ohio

I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the 16 Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His name was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a list I have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and the name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes me forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to go on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age 20. Thank you for your help. Louise

TodeyL@aol.com wrote: > > I think that I may have finally located my grandfather Ivan Tadej on the 16 > Dec. 1892 Ellis Island passenger list on ship Stuttgart from Bremen. His name > was translated as Ivan Fadej. The T became an F. The age 20 and going to > Illinois was right. Now questions to the experts. It states he is from > Bohemia when he was born in Fuzine. Were others from Fuzine sometimes > recorded as Bohemia? Is there a second page on the 1892 list - like a list I > have from 1899 that gave the amount of cash that the passenger had and the > name of person they were joining or who sponsored them? > With one phone line and slow connection speed and slow computer it takes me > forever - can someone please help? Is this my grandfather? All I have to go > on is statement in the Census when he said he immigrated in 1892 at age 20. > Thank you for your help. > Louise Looked at your EIR ship manifest for arrival of Ivan Tadej in 1892. It was not the original ship manifest, but some sort of abbreviated listing with little surname information. Ivan Fadej, age 20, miner, going to Ill. The original ship manifests had 30 columns of surname information. Obviously the Bohemian Bohemia (meaning Czech-Bohemia) was an error due to entries made by German ship manifest writer. Emigrants from Czech-Bohemia usually used the German ports Bremen or Hamburg for exit from Europe. The text version indicated most the the emigrants were from Bohemia, although other emigrants were from Hungary and even Russia. Stuttgart was a Norddeutscher Lloyd [North Germen Lloyd] ship. You have date of ship arrival in NYC 16 December 1892. The local LDS FHC has microfilm rolls of ship arrivals in NYC Beginning Date 16 June 1897. The original PLs for online Ellis Island Records (NYC) only began with 1897. But, LDS volunteers for the EIR indexed records beginning with 1892. Have no idea what manifests were used, but obviously not the same ones available after 1897 at LDS FHCs. That is a dilemma ! STUTTGART (1) The "Stuttgart" was built by Fairfield Co Ltd, Glasgow in 1889 for Norddeutscher Lloyd [North Germen Lloyd]. This was a 5,048 gross ton ship, length 415ft x beam 48ft, one funnel, two masts, single screw and a speed of 13 knots. Accommodation was provided for 44-1st, 36-2nd and 1,955-3rd class passengers. Launched on 26/10/1889, she left Bremen on her maiden voyage to Montevideo and Buenos Aires on 10/1/1890. On 28/8/1890 she commenced her first Bremen - Baltimore voyage and on 11/1/1891 her first Bremen - New York voyage. Her first Bremen - Australia via Suez voyage commenced on 1/7/1896. Her last North Atlantic voyage started on 3/12/1899 when she left Bremen for New York having made a total of 35 round voyages on the N.Atlantic service. On 16/5/1900 she started her first Bremen - Far East run and on 7/4/1903 made her last of 8 round voyages. On 13/7/1904 she started her last Bremen - Australia sailing (9 round voyages) and on 12/1/1907 resumed Bremen - South America sailings. Her final voyage commenced on this service on 14/12/1907 and she was scrapped the following year. [ North Atlantic Seaway by N.R.P.Bonsor, vol.2,p.554] [Posted to The ShipsList by Ted Finch - 6 December 1997]

Thank you Mary, much appreciated. Regards Mary Lawrie