Robert, Thank you for the explanation of the four vowels and how it sounds. I love learning new things on this group. Thanks.--Joy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jerin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Pronunciation help please > Helene, > > Ante = Tony and sounds like ahntay > > Ljuba = Violet and sounds like lyoobah, the Lj is a single character in > the Croatian alphabet and sounds like the ll in the word million. > > ILIC sounds like eelich and is perhaps based on the male given name Ilija > (eeleeya). IC ending means son of. > > Just ask yourself to pronounce KRSTIÈEVIÆ ! and you can imagine other > English speakers trying to pronounce the name the name sounds like > krrrsteechavich. The e has a kind of long a sound. And four consonants > in a row! Not typical in spellings English speakers would be familiar > with. Krs would not sound like krrrsh as you indicated, at least > according to the phone book spellings, as there is no diacritical mark > over the S which sounds like ess, just like English. > > Here are some Croatian letter sounds c with no mark sounds like the ts in > cats, è like a hard CH sound, æ softer CH sound, s like SH and the Z with > a mark over it like the S in the word treasure. > > It helps to learn a something about the language and things become > clearer. > > Only one listing at Ellis Is for Krsticevic,Jozo > > http://www.kollander-travel.com/ > > Robert > > Helene Ennor <[email protected]> wrote: > > I have finally made a contact with my Krsticevic/Kristovich family in Vid, > Croatia and would like to know how to pronounce a few of the names on the > paperwork I received: > > Ante (I think this person was referred to as "Tony" here) > > Ljuba (first name) > > Ilic or I'lic' (last name) > > KRSTECEVIC sounds like krrrsh > > > > Any thoughts on how "Krsticevic" turned into "Kristovich" here? Maybe it > is not pronounced the way it looks? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Helene > > > > > > > Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about > a wonderful tour of Croatia! > > http://www.kollander-travel.com/ >

[email protected] wrote: > Similar surnames in Croatia: > VAMPOLA and VAMPULA. VAMPOLA occurrs in Czech Republic. > The origin is likely to be Hungarian. There is a VAMOS surname in Hungary and > Ancestry.com surname board VAMOS: > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=an&p=surnames.vamos&m=3 > > The word vamos in Hungarian means customs officer.. > Vam = customs. > There is no similar word in Croatian. So an ancestor was probably a customs > officer. In Hungarian vám means customs (duty) (pl) and tiszt means officer. A customs officer is a vámtiszt. In Hungarian vámos also means customs officer. Equivalent occupational surnames : Carinik (Croatian/Slovene) Colník (Slovak) Zollbeamter (German) Online EIR lists 145 surnames Vamos who has emigrated to US 1892-1914. Frank K

Similar surnames in Croatia: VAMPOLA and VAMPULA. VAMPOLA occurrs in Czech Republic. The origin is likely to be Hungarian. There is a VAMOS surname in Hungary and Ancestry.com surname board VAMOS: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=message&r=an&p=surnames.vamos&m=3 The word vamos in Hungarian means customs officer.. Vam = customs. There is no similar word in Croatian. So an ancestor was probably a customs officer.

Here is an excerpt from Franjo Bakic in Dugo Selo Lukacko Croatia who is helping me find my ancestors.. and maybe lost cousins. These are informations from archiv in Osijek: That all informations aren't 100% certain, that is what they told me in Osijek. There are possible three ruths Bakic and thay are all from Dugo Selo. Do you know year and month of birth your grandfather Josip Matkovich and place of birth because there are family Matkovitch in Virovitica? my ruths: (ROOTS) your ruths: NIKOLA BAKIC DOROTEJA RIJAVEC ANTUN BAKIC HELENA MARETIC BLAZ BAKIC ANA DAPIC MARKO BAKIC HELENA VAMPOVAC (17.01.1800.) (26.01.1800) JOSIP BAKIC IVAN BAKIC JULA MANDIC (21.02.1836.) (17.05.1827.) DURO BAKIC STJEPAN BAKIC JULA VUKSIC (31.03.1864.) (26.12.1848) IVAN BAKIC JANA BAKIC JOSIP MATKOVITCH (02.05.1903.) (10.02.1884.) IVAN BAKIC (29.08.1929.) FRANJO BAKIC LJILJANA (07.08.1958.) 1) DANIJEL BAKIC (24.10.1980.) 2) TOMISLAV BAKIC SANELA (31.12.1981) 2.1) DAVID BAKIC (13.04.2005.) 3) DANIJELA BAKIC (01.12.1997.) This are months and years when they were christening. God Bless you and your family from our family. I hope you will answer me soon! Franjo Bakic If anyone can make a connection to this I will be glad to hear from you, meanwhile I am really curious about the surname Vampovac.. any ideas Robert, et al. DAVE Mothkovich.

Robert, Thank you so much for the wonderful information. It really helps alot. Someday . . . maybe I will have the privilege to visit my grandfather's homeland. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Jerin To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Pronunciation help please Helene, Ante = Tony and sounds like ahntay Ljuba = Violet and sounds like lyoobah, the Lj is a single character in the Croatian alphabet and sounds like the ll in the word million. ILIC sounds like eelich and is perhaps based on the male given name Ilija (eeleeya). IC ending means son of. Just ask yourself to pronounce KRSTIÈEVIÆ ! and you can imagine other English speakers trying to pronounce the name the name sounds like krrrsteechavich. The e has a kind of long a sound. And four consonants in a row! Not typical in spellings English speakers would be familiar with. Krs would not sound like krrrsh as you indicated, at least according to the phone book spellings, as there is no diacritical mark over the S which sounds like ess, just like English. Here are some Croatian letter sounds c with no mark sounds like the ts in cats, è like a hard CH sound, æ softer CH sound, s like SH and the Z with a mark over it like the S in the word treasure. It helps to learn a something about the language and things become clearer. Only one listing at Ellis Is for Krsticevic,Jozo http://www.kollander-travel.com/ Robert Helene Ennor <[email protected]> wrote: I have finally made a contact with my Krsticevic/Kristovich family in Vid, Croatia and would like to know how to pronounce a few of the names on the paperwork I received: Ante (I think this person was referred to as "Tony" here) Ljuba (first name) Ilic or I'lic' (last name) KRSTECEVIC sounds like krrrsh Any thoughts on how "Krsticevic" turned into "Kristovich" here? Maybe it is not pronounced the way it looks? Thanks in advance for your help. Helene Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

Helene, Ante = Tony and sounds like ahntay Ljuba = Violet and sounds like lyoobah, the Lj is a single character in the Croatian alphabet and sounds like the ll in the word million. ILIC sounds like eelich and is perhaps based on the male given name Ilija (eeleeya). IC ending means son of. Just ask yourself to pronounce KRSTI�EVI� ! and you can imagine other English speakers trying to pronounce the name the name sounds like krrrsteechavich. The e has a kind of long a sound. And four consonants in a row! Not typical in spellings English speakers would be familiar with. Krs would not sound like krrrsh as you indicated, at least according to the phone book spellings, as there is no diacritical mark over the S which sounds like ess, just like English. Here are some Croatian letter sounds c with no mark sounds like the ts in cats, � like a hard CH sound, � softer CH sound, � like SH and the Z with a mark over it like the S in the word treasure. It helps to learn a something about the language and things become clearer. Only one listing at Ellis Is for Krsticevic,Jozo http://www.kollander-travel.com/ Robert Helene Ennor <[email protected]> wrote: I have finally made a contact with my Krsticevic/Kristovich family in Vid, Croatia and would like to know how to pronounce a few of the names on the paperwork I received: Ante (I think this person was referred to as "Tony" here) Ljuba (first name) Ilic or I'lic' (last name) KRSTECEVIC sounds like krrrsh Any thoughts on how "Krsticevic" turned into "Kristovich" here? Maybe it is not pronounced the way it looks? Thanks in advance for your help. Helene Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

I have finally made a contact with my Krsticevic/Kristovich family in Vid, Croatia and would like to know how to pronounce a few of the names on the paperwork I received: Ante (I think this person was referred to as "Tony" here) Ljuba (first name) Ilic or I'lic' (last name) Any thoughts on how "Krsticevic" turned into "Kristovich" here? Maybe it is not pronounced the way it looks? Thanks in advance for your help. Helene

Patty wrote: We grew up next to Polish neighbors and when my grandparents would come visit, the languages were close enough that they could converse. Patty, I have a similar situation. My grandmother was born in Croatia in a community that included Germans, Croats, and immigrants from what is now Czech Republic. She and her family moved around in that area, so she had to learn to communicate wherever they went. She came to America and went to Chicago where she met my Grandfather, who was born in Western Bohemia, and probably knew a bit of German as well as Czech. My guess is they never spoke any German (Czech dislike them - they were the 'ruling' class and German not language of choice). My mother grew up speaking their combined languages. When she married my father, who spoke a combination of Polish spoken by my grandmother whose parents were German-Polish, and Russian-Polish (meaning not ethnically but 'nationally'), he was able to converse with my Czech-ish speaking grandparents. Enough of the language was similar for them to communicate. I get what little I know in Czech confused with what little I know in Polish.... Anettka

Marla Ruzika was killed 17 April 2005 in Bagdad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marla_Ruzicka Origin of surname appears to be Czech http://nobelprize.org/chemistry/laureates/1939/ruzicka-bio.html Frank K

Was she of Croatian descent? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64144-2005Apr18.html

Or it could indicate that some Jews spreading the good news traveled to Croatia and married into the populace. It would take a prolongated study to determine the origins of Croats, and delineate what is the origin and what is from the migration of the peoples. Certainly no reason to jump to conclusions. There have been studies mentioned in the past here, and I don't dispute any of them, just hope to see more scientific analysis with bias from the researcher. Dave

INGLISH. >hi! > >i was wondering how similar these two languages are? > >thanks, >amy > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Amor: busca tu ½ naranja http://latam.msn.com/amor/

In regards to all the dialects and languages spoken in Croatia, I find the Istro-Roumanian aka Aroumanian http://www.vlachophiles.net/istria.htm and Dalmatian the most intriguing http://www.answers.com/topic/dalmatian-language Also in regards to the old Dalmatian Language the last known speaker Tuone Udaina (Antonio UDINA) who lived at Veglia aka Town of Krk on the Island of Krk who died June 10, 1898 from a brief encounter with a land mine! His language, Vegliot dialect of Dalmatian, was studied by an Italian scholar, Matteo Giulio Bartoli who visited him in 1897 documenting thousands of words, stories, accounts of his life, which were published in a book, with Italian translation, which provides much information on the vocabulary, phonology and grammar of the language. He wrote them in Italian and published a translation in German (Das Dalmatische) in 1906. And while we are discussing DNA here is an article about the Great Migrations inc the one that likely brought the Croats from the middle east to Europe... along with the ancestors of many modern day Europeans. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Human+migration&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1 Robert Frank Kurchina <franku[email protected]> wrote: Ethnologue Croatian http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=HR Slovene http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=SI Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

For about 150 y- until the end of 17th century, Gorski Kotar was uninhabitated. This because of repeated terrifying over the border raids the population fled to neighboring lands (Slovenija). The Turks however, even at the time of their largest expansion, never occupied Gorski Kotar. This remained within Habsburg Monarchy, west of the border or Military Border area. Tatjana

Of course Jugoslavija did not last til 1949, it was 1990.

Ethnologue Croatian http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=HR Slovene http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=SI

Amy, the Slovenes "learned" Serbo-Croatian as a second language. Of course all the while they "spoke" Slovenian, their native tongue. During SHS and Jugoslavija (1918- 1929- 1949) they learned Serbo-Croatian in school and the military service. In their land they continued to speak and write in their own language. The Slovenian language was taught in other areas of the country (SHS, Jugoslavija) but very superficially and not learned. Tatjana

Yes Frank! To add: Try to read newspapers or a book in any of these languages and the similarities will be of little help.Living in the same community gestures and facial expression will add to understanding each other. Tatjana

In my observation the immigrants living in proximity adjusted their way of speaking. In addition they used many English words and expressions while speaking. In their original countries however there was no adjustement and no English language words to use. While in Europe I could not converse in Polish or Croatian with the Poles. The second language learned was French and this one was used at international gatherings or travel. Until not long ago the Slovenes learned what was called "Serbo- Croatian" and this we used in our conversations when they came to Croatia or we visited their land. Tatjana