Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, I would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother and I would enjoy it. My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile Corp. They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit and went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to heaven. Thank you for your stories. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "William F Kane" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Margaret, I love your stories. > My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they > came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and > the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm > going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes they > were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to England. > They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives > followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. > Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country > and they advanced and their children got a better life and their > children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in America. > They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see > relatives who stayed. > My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the > Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot of > land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men > and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by the > men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. Her > father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All > winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the > summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his > wares. > There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group > picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The > picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They all > have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. > They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother > got the rope making business when their father died. It could not support > two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. > Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind > until he was settled. > Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the family > getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to > survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, > married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work and > then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis > Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then > they sent for their wives, > Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother and > all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no > longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or summer, > to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she had > to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the > living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the > mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there > for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and > the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them > became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to > college. > I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on > the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on the > expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. > > The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the > story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life > in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus > from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. > Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in > Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and their > early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including > the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, The > Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to > the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian > Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either > book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very > close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on this > site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting a > copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE > SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The ISBN > is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is > 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. > Bill Kane > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > >

What arrogance to assume that only in the US people eat. I wonder what the hungry and homless in the US today would say to that, where can they immigrate to? Not everyone stayed because they wanted to. Many immigrants (husbands and fathers who left their families behind) were enticed by stories of the good life and easy money in America. They believed that if they worked hard they would be rewarded. Reality for most of them was that they toiled from dawn to dusk for little pay and lived in terrible conditions so they could send money to support loved ones left behind. They were hungry in America and would have gone back home if they could afford to. Many stayed because they were ashamed to return home poor. So they saved for years before they could bring wives and children to join them . Just as those lucky to earn enough saved, many never saw their families again. A pesant from a village can find a potato, what can he eat in a rat infested city with thousands of other souls atempting to survive. I cannot imagine that going hungry alone in an American city would be preferable to his village. Not everyone went to America for food because not everyone in the US eats not even today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "palocat" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough to > eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region > (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They were > dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot > imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our times. > Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat > and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we > sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always > remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it > was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave > their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our > ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! > > Matt > > PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who > came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands > each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to > Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and > Asia. > > > > On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: > >> Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their homes >> to >> come to America? >> In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they >> were >> lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in >> their >> mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with >> discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) >> Karen Heiser, >> Weed, Siskiyou, CA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> >> >>> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >>> Margaret >> said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long as >> the >> golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about >> matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died so >> that >> we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died only >> on >> the picket line. >>> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say >> they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and Bill >> of >> Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is >> denied their descendants. >>> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? for >>> the >> right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? >> Serfdom >> survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post WW1 >> years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still >> rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - >> grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA so >> that their children's children could learn to read. >>> So that they could someday use the internet. >>> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list represents. >> Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor >> their >> children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the >> right >> to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the land >> they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was >> unsatisfactory to them. >>> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >>> wanted >> to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports and >> games for little children only. >>> >>> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >>> Ashley >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: William F Kane >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >>> >>> >>> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >>> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >>> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband with >> the >>> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >>> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >>> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >>> e-mail >>> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >>> Bill Kane >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 > >

Margaret, I love your stories. My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes they were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to England. They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country and they advanced and their children got a better life and their children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in America. They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see relatives who stayed. My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot of land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by the men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. Her father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his wares. There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They all have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother got the rope making business when their father died. It could not support two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind until he was settled. Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the family getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work and then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then they sent for their wives, Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother and all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or summer, to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she had to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to college. I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on the expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and their early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, The Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on this site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting a copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The ISBN is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. Bill Kane

Thank you Bee Tatjana

Oh my goodness, what a tirade of anti-US hate! Talk about arrogance! Perhaps you need to check some facts before posting such stuff! Not many Croatians settled in large cities such as you described, the largest number of Croatians settled in SW Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh area. The largest concentration by percent settled in Calumet Michigan. From the families I know, yes they worked hard but most did make a better life for their families... the same as they did in Australia, Canada, S. America or wherever they settled. And no not every peasant in the village found a potato! And not every immigrant settled and lived in such horrid conditions as you describe. And yes at one time people came to America for a better life and in some cases even if they had some money they came to America for land, much as they have done in Australia. Robert Jerin Croatian Heritage Museum Cleveland Ohio Betty <[email protected]> wrote: What arrogance to assume that only in the US people eat. I wonder what the hungry and homless in the US today would say to that, where can they immigrate to? Not everyone stayed because they wanted to. Many immigrants (husbands and fathers who left their families behind) were enticed by stories of the good life and easy money in America. They believed that if they worked hard they would be rewarded. Reality for most of them was that they toiled from dawn to dusk for little pay and lived in terrible conditions so they could send money to support loved ones left behind. They were hungry in America and would have gone back home if they could afford to. Many stayed because they were ashamed to return home poor. So they saved for years before they could bring wives and children to join them . Just as those lucky to earn enough saved, many never saw their families again. A pesant from a village can find a potato, what can he eat in a rat infested city with thousands of other souls atempting to survive. I cannot imagine that going hungry alone in an American city would be preferable to his village. Not everyone went to America for food because not everyone in the US eats not even today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "palocat" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough to > eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region > (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They were > dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot > imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our times. > Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat > and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we > sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always > remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it > was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave > their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our > ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! > > Matt > > PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who > came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands > each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to > Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and > Asia. > > > > On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: > >> Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their homes >> to >> come to America? >> In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they >> were >> lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in >> their >> mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with >> discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) >> Karen Heiser, >> Weed, Siskiyou, CA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "ashley tiwara" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> >> >>> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >>> Margaret >> said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long as >> the >> golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about >> matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died so >> that >> we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died only >> on >> the picket line. >>> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say >> they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and Bill >> of >> Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is >> denied their descendants. >>> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? for >>> the >> right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? >> Serfdom >> survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post WW1 >> years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still >> rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - >> grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA so >> that their children's children could learn to read. >>> So that they could someday use the internet. >>> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list represents. >> Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor >> their >> children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the >> right >> to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the land >> they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was >> unsatisfactory to them. >>> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >>> wanted >> to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports and >> games for little children only. >>> >>> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >>> Ashley >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: William F Kane >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >>> >>> >>> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >>> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >>> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband with >> the >>> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >>> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >>> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >>> e-mail >>> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >>> Bill Kane >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 > > Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

With or without the testiness of the dialogue, it is interesting to know about our ancestors coming to America. I tell and have written the stories of my grandparents so that my grandchildren and ancestors who will never know them, can know about their family. My grandfather, Ante Rancic, came to America to Leadville, Colorado and worked in the mines. His father took out a government loan with his vineyards as collateral so that he could come to the land that offered so much. Quite a number of young men and some cousins came at the same time. Ante treasured the possibilities that America offered and was determined to be a GOOD American. He knew that he needed to learn to read and write in order to improve himself and to leave mine work behind. My grandmother, Andja Bravic, came, alone, a few years later. Her brother who was already here sent for her. She ran his boarding house, doing all of the washing, cooking and cleaning for all of the boarders who worked in the mines. Her brother, Jure Bravic, decided that she should marry Ante, because he was a promising young man who also came from Dalmatia. (He also owned the best buggy in town with a lap robe that had a big topaz stone in it. Ah, the lure.....) Together, they moved to Globe, Arizona where she had boarders in their home and he had a co-op general store with other men from Croatia. She bore him 5 children in as many years. Then a shyster sold Ante on land in the El Paso Valley. Making a long story short, the land was barren & poor covered in mesquite. They worked very hard, fighting bandits and nature....floods and fires. Little by little, the land was tamed and Ante increased his holdings. They started as poor, immigrant settlers and ended up with wealth. Ante always appreciate the opportunity of America. He grabbed the brass ring with hard work and good will. He always remembered his religious teaching at the knee of his mother and his Croatian family, who he never saw again, as he died when he was in his fifties. But, Andja returned several times to Dalmatia when she was older, taking me with her one time. I am so proud of my grandparents. They are a true lesson about taking advantage of the opportunities. Bee

Bee, that was a nice story. My mom and dad got to visit the relatives in Croatia and Slovenia in 1966. Mom enjoyed meeting them and had a good time, but said she wished she could thank her parents for coming to America. Most of the ones in Croatia, at that time, were still very poor and working in the vineyards. Since the last war, we haven't heard from many of them and figure that they are dead. My dad's family in Slovenia seemed to fare a bit better and have government jobs at banks or the post office and they write to us via email and send pictures. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "RMB" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:54 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Rancic & Bravic > With or without the testiness of the dialogue, it is interesting to know > about our ancestors coming to America. I tell and have written the > stories > of my grandparents so that my grandchildren and ancestors who will never > know them, can know about their family. > > My grandfather, Ante Rancic, came to America to Leadville, Colorado and > worked in the mines. His father took out a government loan with his > vineyards as collateral so that he could come to the land that offered so > much. Quite a number of young men and some cousins came at the same time. > Ante treasured the possibilities that America offered and was determined > to > be a GOOD American. He knew that he needed to learn to read and write in > order to improve himself and to leave mine work behind. > > My grandmother, Andja Bravic, came, alone, a few years later. Her brother > who was already here sent for her. She ran his boarding house, doing all > of > the washing, cooking and cleaning for all of the boarders who worked in > the > mines. Her brother, Jure Bravic, decided that she should marry Ante, > because he was a promising young man who also came from Dalmatia. (He > also > owned the best buggy in town with a lap robe that had a big topaz stone in > it. Ah, the lure.....) > > Together, they moved to Globe, Arizona where she had boarders in their > home > and he had a co-op general store with other men from Croatia. She bore > him > 5 children in as many years. Then a shyster sold Ante on land in the El > Paso Valley. Making a long story short, the land was barren & poor > covered > in mesquite. They worked very hard, fighting bandits and nature....floods > and fires. Little by little, the land was tamed and Ante increased his > holdings. They started as poor, immigrant settlers and ended up with > wealth. > > Ante always appreciate the opportunity of America. He grabbed the brass > ring > with hard work and good will. He always remembered his religious teaching > at the knee of his mother and his Croatian family, who he never saw again, > as he died when he was in his fifties. But, Andja returned several times > to > Dalmatia when she was older, taking me with her one time. > > I am so proud of my grandparents. They are a true lesson about taking > advantage of the opportunities. > Bee > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > >

Genealogy is more than a collection of names: (Petar's father is Stjepan etc) or recipes. And nowhere is it written that it should be a big love-in without disagreements. Tatjana

As Ashley noticed there were public schools in Croatia. More about: Fuzine school was started in 1785. There was a big celebration 200y later. In Otocac (under Vienna military administration) the school started in 1727. Zagreb School Museum (maybe Robert could take his travelers there) has old school books with the names of honor students (in school they were sitting at a separate bench reserved for good students). I have copies of some of the pages from 1828 and 1851.There are names NIKSIC, PERPIC etc. And to switch to "girls' talk" (boys are permitted to listen in after they are finished munching the good food we prepared for them): In 1805 a new building "for instruction of female children" was built. A few years ago the building was still standing, so probably it is as of today. The honor students' book has them on the same page with their male counterparts. The teachers for the female children were mostly but not exclusively female. Tatjana

Sometimes that is true, not always, my German ancestors came here to gain wealth by buying property, developing it and selling it. I see it all the time in the records. As for my Croatian relatives, I don't know for certain. Father said we were descended from nobility. Though I've not found a connection yet, it is possible. I think that for the most part, people were looking for opportunity. Not necessarily oppressed. Dave On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:06:14 -0500 palocat <[email protected]> writes: > Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have > enough > to eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home > > region (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to > economics. > They were dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult > that > we cannot imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable > conditions > of our times. Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was > > enough food to eat and generally an absence of the Crown that made > life > so harsh -- we sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, > but > please always remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- > they > say it was like it was -- miserable and oppressive in their home > area. > People do not leave their home if everything is comfortable and > economically well -- our ancestors had the guts to try to better > themselves!!! > > Matt > > PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those > who > came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the > thousands each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I > > have been to Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest > of > Europe and Asia. > > > > On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: > > > Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their > > > homes to > > come to America? > > In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because > they > > were > > lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap > labor in > > their > > mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with > > discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) > > Karen Heiser, > > Weed, Siskiyou, CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM > > Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > > > >> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as > > >> Margaret > > said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as > long > > as the > > golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings > about > > matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men > died > > so that > > we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean > died > > only on > > the picket line. > >> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars > would say > > they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and > > > Bill of > > Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free > speech is > > denied their descendants. > >> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? > > >> for the > > right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their > children? > > Serfdom > > survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the > post > > WW1 > > years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were > still > > rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great > - > > grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the > USA > > so > > that their children's children could learn to read. > >> So that they could someday use the internet. > >> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list > >> represents. > > Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they > nor > > their > > children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or > the > > right > > to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit > the > > land > > they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead > was > > unsatisfactory to them. > >> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when > they > >> wanted > > to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and > sports > > and > > games for little children only. > >> > >> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. > >> Ashley > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: William F Kane > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM > >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys > >> > >> > >> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years > ago and > >> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. > "a > >> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her > husband > >> with > > the > >> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and > >> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have > changed > >> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending > one > >> e-mail > >> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. > >> Bill Kane > >> > >> > > > > > > >

Matt quotes the inscription which labels immigrants as a "wretched refuse". In my dictionary this is a "despicable trash". The late NY US senator Patrick Moynahan objected to this language. They were also presumed to be "tired". Quite some job did those "tired" people accomplish! Tatjana In a message dated 4/25/2005 9:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion Date: 4/25/2005 9:09:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: [email protected] (palocat) Reply-to: [email protected] To: [email protected] Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough to eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They were dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our times. Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! Matt PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and Asia.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Betty" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion What arrogance to assume that only in the US people eat. I wonder what the hungry and homless in the US today would say to that, where can they immigrate to? Not everyone stayed because they wanted to. Many immigrants (husbands and fathers who left their families behind) were enticed by stories of the good life and easy money in America. They believed that if they worked hard they would be rewarded. Reality for most of them was that they toiled from dawn to dusk for little pay and lived in terrible conditions so they could send money to support loved ones left behind. They were hungry in America and would have gone back home if they could afford to. Many stayed because they were ashamed to return home poor. So they saved for years before they could bring wives and children to join them . Just as those lucky to earn enough saved, many never saw their families again. A pesant from a village can find a potato, what can he eat in a rat infested city with thousands of other souls atempting to survive. I cannot imagine that going hungry alone in an American city would be preferable to his village. Not everyone went to America for food because not everyone in the US eats not even today. ----- Original Message ----- From: "palocat" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough to > eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region > (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They were > dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot > imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our times. > Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat > and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we > sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always > remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it > was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave > their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our > ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! > > Matt > > PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who > came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands > each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to > Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and > Asia. > > > > On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: > >> Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their homes >> to >> come to America? >> In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they >> were >> lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in >> their >> mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with >> discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) >> Karen Heiser, >> Weed, Siskiyou, CA >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> >> >>> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >>> Margaret >> said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long as >> the >> golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about >> matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died so >> that >> we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died only >> on >> the picket line. >>> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say >> they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and Bill >> of >> Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is >> denied their descendants. >>> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? for >>> the >> right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? >> Serfdom >> survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post WW1 >> years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still >> rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - >> grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA so >> that their children's children could learn to read. >>> So that they could someday use the internet. >>> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list represents. >> Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor >> their >> children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the >> right >> to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the land >> they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was >> unsatisfactory to them. >>> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >>> wanted >> to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports and >> games for little children only. >>> >>> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >>> Ashley >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: William F Kane >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >>> >>> >>> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >>> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >>> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband with >> the >>> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >>> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >>> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >>> e-mail >>> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >>> Bill Kane >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 > >

Everyone had different situations. It was hard for all who left their families behind. With my grandparents, they worked very hard and "made it". After they were here about 10 years they moved to Detroit from Philadelphia. About 10 years after that, and with 6 children, they bought their second home and did very well for themselves. In Philadelphia, Grandma Sophie was having her babies and running a rooming house while Grandpa Adam was out working. Once in Detroit, she was able to stay home and keep a beautiful and clean home and was a wonderful cook. She always talked about how hard it was in "the old country" and how her mother had her babies and went right back into the field to work. During the WWII, she gathered up things and sent many boxes to the family in Europe. When we went there with the Military, they showed us that they still had some of the things and were very thankful. They, in the 1960's, had built their own homes, were educated, and were doing well. During the wars they suffered. They were not bitter and were all very proud that my grandmother had come to America and almost every cousin had a child named "Sofia" after my grandmother. I think we all need to read all the emails and absorb all the tales. No one was saying that only in the US did people eat. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Betty" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:07 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > What arrogance to assume that only in the US people eat. I wonder what > the hungry and homless in the US today would say to that, where can they > immigrate to? > > Not everyone stayed because they wanted to. Many immigrants (husbands and > fathers who left their families behind) were enticed by stories of the > good life and easy money in America. They believed that if they worked > hard they would be rewarded. > > Reality for most of them was that they toiled from dawn to dusk for > little pay and lived in terrible conditions so they could send money to > support loved ones left behind. They were hungry in America and would > have gone back home if they could afford to. > > Many stayed because they were ashamed to return home poor. So they saved > for years before they could bring wives and children to join them . Just > as those lucky to earn enough saved, many never saw their families again. > > A pesant from a village can find a potato, what can he eat in a rat > infested city with thousands of other souls atempting to survive. I > cannot imagine that going hungry alone in an American city would be > preferable to his village. > > Not everyone went to America for food because not everyone in the US eats > not even today. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "palocat" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough >> to eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home >> region (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. >> They were dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we >> cannot imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of >> our times. Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough >> food to eat and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so >> harsh -- we sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but >> please always remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say >> it was like it was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People >> do not leave their home if everything is comfortable and economically >> well -- our ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! >> >> Matt >> >> PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who >> came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands >> each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to >> Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and >> Asia. >> >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: >> >>> Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their homes >>> to >>> come to America? >>> In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they >>> were >>> lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in >>> their >>> mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with >>> discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) >>> Karen Heiser, >>> Weed, Siskiyou, CA >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM >>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >>> >>> >>>> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >>>> Margaret >>> said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long as >>> the >>> golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about >>> matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died so >>> that >>> we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died only >>> on >>> the picket line. >>>> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say >>> they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and Bill >>> of >>> Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is >>> denied their descendants. >>>> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? for >>>> the >>> right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? >>> Serfdom >>> survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post WW1 >>> years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still >>> rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - >>> grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA so >>> that their children's children could learn to read. >>>> So that they could someday use the internet. >>>> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list >>>> represents. >>> Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor >>> their >>> children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the >>> right >>> to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the land >>> they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was >>> unsatisfactory to them. >>>> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >>>> wanted >>> to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports and >>> games for little children only. >>>> >>>> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >>>> Ashley >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: William F Kane >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >>>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >>>> >>>> >>>> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >>>> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >>>> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband with >>> the >>>> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >>>> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >>>> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >>>> e-mail >>>> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >>>> Bill Kane >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 >> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > >

Ashley, it was Joseph II (1780- 1790), the ruler of Habsburg Monarchy which included the Kingdom of Croatia who ordered compulsory schooling. Unfortunately of course not all communities were as fortunate as Fuzine and Mrkopalj to be able to establish the schools. Tatjana

Ashley- I think we should continue this talk privately.. Dave On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:10:00 -0500 ashley tiwara <[email protected]> writes: > Dave, I do think you should be proud of the work your mother did, as > did mine, in raising children without a male helper, but surely you > aren't saying that men have no part in creating children? Those > partial birth abortions your mom wept over were the result of men's > actions or inactions as much as any choice the desperate women > involved had made. > You are at best being patronizing when you offer this list the > opportunity to ' go ahead and have your girl talk. ' Women's > heritage and women's history is holding up half the sky. Unless you > wish to be middle Eastern, and not the middle Westerner I know you > to be, and claim the whole sky for men. > > Or are dreams also not suitable talk for women and girls too? > Ashley > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dave mothkovich > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] feminist movement and "genealogy" > > > The cooking goes to culture, which I think is suitable to > genealogy. It > adds color to the leaves of the family tree. I plead mea culpa > regarding > a short discussion on gulf courses, during some chattiing on the > board. > I have a great deal of respect for the mothers who raised 10 > children.. > my mother did it, and 5 by herself after my father died. > My mother worked on airplanes during WWII, and after dad died, > supported > the family by working in a saloon. She was proud of her ability > as a > mother , wife, and homemaker; and she felt insulted by feminists > because > she felt they were demeaning the work she did and insulting her > chosen > vocation. My mother felt that feminism would destroy families, > and > though I don't think it is fair to say it has been the sole > culprit of > our McWorld culture, certainly it plays a role in how families > interact > in society today.. not all good. When my mother learned what > abortion > was, and what partial birth abortion was she wept for hours > wondering how > women could destroy the most precious gifts they had, one - > sharing in > creation with God, and two - the unborn child itself. > > My mom was a football fan, a baseball fan, shared in my love of > mysteries > and law enforcement. She was a good detective herself having > found were > my father's mother had died and was buried; and getting useful > information from her death record and the people who cared for her > with > almost nothing as a clue. All that before the information and > technology > age, which has made the task so much easier for me. Regardless of > how > sick we were or how tired she was she put all her energy into our > care. > My mother taught us right from wrong, and how to see through > "creative > logic" to discern immoral behavior, falsehood, malice and > politic. > > All this from a heinz 57, kinda woman married to a hard working, > stubborn, Croatian male. > > Go ahead and have your girl talk. > > Dave > > > > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:33:49 EDT [email protected] writes: > > We are often discussing history: the Croats, Slovenes, their > > language, the > > food they eat and cook. And I saw no complaints. But mention the > > > women (except > > in their families' kitchens) and soon the girls are mentioned- > is it > > just > > patronizing or? > > Going through the US census reports I could not but wonder: how > did > > they do > > it? 8, 10 children, husband going to the coppermines and a > boarder > > or 2 in the > > apartement. All the while apparently they had no basic legal > rights. > > Are we > > only interested in their gourmet cooking and the rights of > Magyars > > and the > > language of Poles? but not the lifes of our gmothers? > > Right on Ashley! > > And the rest: please explain what do the recipes have to do with > > > genealogy as > > you understand it? > > Tatjana Former (glad to have been able to be accepted to medical > > > school and > > to spend my own earnings with my own credit cards. And to > vote!) > > > > > > > > >

Tatjana and others, One of the most fascinating things about research on the internet is what you turn up by chance. My grandmother left school when she was about 10 for family reasons. She told me she'd gone to school in Mrkopalj for three years. Some time ago I looked up the Mrkopalj school on the internet. There's a web site at least in part in English. To my amazement, I learned that it was a free school and was established around 1785. That's more than two hundred years of educating the children of the Mrkopalj valley. Ever since then, looking at ships' manifests, I pity the poor emigrants who come from other areas, probably especially along the Hungarian border, who didn't have such opportunities and have to tell the clerk recording the details of their passage, ' No, I can't read or write in Croatian, or Austrian, or English, either. ' Both my Mrkopalj valley grandparents had the advantage of some schooling when they left Croatia to make their way in a new land. It helps to be able to read. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Girls and boys Robert you seem to be a God's gift to a woman lucky enough to have you around. Not questioning your veracity though, when do you then find time for your passion of history and genealogy? And to Ashley: Not all immigrants came from places lacking schools. US was quite enriched by the arrival of many, many Fuzinarci and Fuzinarke. And Fuzine, or Fuzina as called by its natives, celebrated several years ago the 200years of their school. To Karen: yes as Robert mentioned for many others, they came from Fuzina joining their brothers, friends and cousins. Tatjana

Good for you, Margaret, on the zeriscaping, or maybe xeriscaping. One of the funniest slides I've ever seen at a nature program was shown by someone who'd been taking residential photos in Las Vegas of the desert foliage which some homeowners adopted for their gardens. Then there was the person across the street...who'd obviously moved there from Wisconsin ... a green grass lawn. 1200 miles of desert when you look at the western part of the USA from the air, and one green spot of lawns. Karen in that wonderfully named Weed, Siskiyou: I thought always that my grandfather decided to settle in northern Wisconsin because it visually reminded him of Stari Krai in the area of the hills east of Rijeka. Mostly pine trees, a biggish lake about 10 miles away, quite a few hills and ravines too, and the farm had two creeks running thru the fields. Grandpa was not a city person. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Buza To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] only Mother is responsible for children? Ashley, I love reading your remarks and rejoice in them. Not all women are as fortunate as I am with a husband and boys that are not ashamed to do "woman's work". I don't mind hammering a nail or painting a fence or mowing a lawn (we no longer have lawn, but desert landscaping), but I used to do it. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:10 AM Subject: [CROATIA-L] only Mother is responsible for children? > Dave, I do think you should be proud of the work your mother did, as did > mine, in raising children without a male helper, but surely you aren't > saying that men have no part in creating children? Those partial birth > abortions your mom wept over were the result of men's actions or inactions > as much as any choice the desperate women involved had made. > You are at best being patronizing when you offer this list the > opportunity to ' go ahead and have your girl talk. ' Women's heritage and > women's history is holding up half the sky. Unless you wish to be middle > Eastern, and not the middle Westerner I know you to be, and claim the > whole sky for men. > > Or are dreams also not suitable talk for women and girls too? > Ashley > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dave mothkovich > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:38 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] feminist movement and "genealogy" > > > The cooking goes to culture, which I think is suitable to genealogy. It > adds color to the leaves of the family tree. I plead mea culpa regarding > a short discussion on gulf courses, during some chattiing on the board. > I have a great deal of respect for the mothers who raised 10 children.. > my mother did it, and 5 by herself after my father died. > My mother worked on airplanes during WWII, and after dad died, supported > the family by working in a saloon. She was proud of her ability as a > mother , wife, and homemaker; and she felt insulted by feminists because > she felt they were demeaning the work she did and insulting her chosen > vocation. My mother felt that feminism would destroy families, and > though I don't think it is fair to say it has been the sole culprit of > our McWorld culture, certainly it plays a role in how families interact > in society today.. not all good. When my mother learned what abortion > was, and what partial birth abortion was she wept for hours wondering how > women could destroy the most precious gifts they had, one - sharing in > creation with God, and two - the unborn child itself. > > My mom was a football fan, a baseball fan, shared in my love of mysteries > and law enforcement. She was a good detective herself having found were > my father's mother had died and was buried; and getting useful > information from her death record and the people who cared for her with > almost nothing as a clue. All that before the information and technology > age, which has made the task so much easier for me. Regardless of how > sick we were or how tired she was she put all her energy into our care. > My mother taught us right from wrong, and how to see through "creative > logic" to discern immoral behavior, falsehood, malice and politic. > > All this from a heinz 57, kinda woman married to a hard working, > stubborn, Croatian male. > > Go ahead and have your girl talk. > > Dave > > > > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:33:49 EDT [email protected] writes: > > We are often discussing history: the Croats, Slovenes, their > > language, the > > food they eat and cook. And I saw no complaints. But mention the > > women (except > > in their families' kitchens) and soon the girls are mentioned- is it > > just > > patronizing or? > > Going through the US census reports I could not but wonder: how did > > they do > > it? 8, 10 children, husband going to the coppermines and a boarder > > or 2 in the > > apartement. All the while apparently they had no basic legal rights. > > Are we > > only interested in their gourmet cooking and the rights of Magyars > > and the > > language of Poles? but not the lifes of our gmothers? > > Right on Ashley! > > And the rest: please explain what do the recipes have to do with > > genealogy as > > you understand it? > > Tatjana Former (glad to have been able to be accepted to medical > > school and > > to spend my own earnings with my own credit cards. And to vote!) > > > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005 >

Robert, I did not say to women. I said to "a woman lucky enough to have you around". Take a compliment when you get it and do not worry about pc and whining. For those who are or are planning to be old: there is a say: "Old age is not for sissies". And this does not include whining. Tatjana

Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough to eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They were dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our times. Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! Matt PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and Asia. On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: > Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their > homes to > come to America? > In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they > were > lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in > their > mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with > discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) > Karen Heiser, > Weed, Siskiyou, CA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ashley tiwara" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM > Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >> Margaret > said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long > as the > golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about > matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died > so that > we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died > only on > the picket line. >> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say > they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and > Bill of > Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is > denied their descendants. >> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? >> for the > right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? > Serfdom > survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post > WW1 > years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still > rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - > grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA > so > that their children's children could learn to read. >> So that they could someday use the internet. >> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list >> represents. > Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor > their > children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the > right > to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the > land > they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was > unsatisfactory to them. >> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >> wanted > to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports > and > games for little children only. >> >> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >> Ashley >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: William F Kane >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >> >> >> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband >> with > the >> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >> e-mail >> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >> Bill Kane >> >> > >

Hi Stojan, Yes I did recieve your email. I have forwarded your message to Tom but have not heard back from him. Robert Stojan Ninkovic <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Robert. I was wondering if you received my last email about searching the roots of this name. Please advise. thanks. Stojan Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/