Margaret, You forgot to mention the German cousins get a paid month's vacation every year. Even if they are younger generation, un - arthritic, and well paid, I do envy them, and have done so since college, the paid extensive vacation time. Remember that most of France closes down in August? Everybody has 3 or 4 weeks off. England sort of shuts down during the Christmas and New Year holiday, despite the masses of EU shoppers. Italy has paid 3 week minimum vacations too, but I never noticed any hot spots: maybe they spread them out across the year? Maybe they take them in winter to avoid the summer tourists, like me? Ashley On Apr 27, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Jerome Buza wrote: > Andy, that was a wonderful story. God bless our ancestors and those > that still struggle in Croatia and the other countries over there. My > mom's cousins that went to Germany are doing very well now and one > went to Portugal and married a doctor. The younger generation of > those in Germany travel the world, backpacking, and they are not > afraid and are very strong people. They will save for a year and then > go for a month and have a wonderful time. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Andrew Nixon" > <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:53 AM > Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> Ah, yes, immigrants' actual stories instead of judgmental diatribe. >> Here is >> a brief synopsis of mine: Paternal Grandfather: Shortly after the >> turn of >> the 20th century Marion Nikolich, age 19, was drafted into the army, >> trained >> as a medic and as a soldier, placed on loan to the German army. The >> kingdom >> of Serbs Croats, and Slovenes was about the only ally Germany had at >> that >> time and things were getting a bit dicey - war was brewing. The >> European >> economy was depressed. While on duty he was approached by a steel mill >> recruiter and left for Chicago - later to settle in the Pittsburgh >> area. >> (AWOL? Probably did not translate well ;-)). When he returned to his >> village >> near Imotski five years later to see his wife and by then, 6-year old >> child, >> the village elders told him he was about to be arrested for desertion >> so >> that night he high tailed it to Trieste and back to the US, sending >> for his >> wife later. >> >> Paternal grandmother Mara Nikolich: Brother accompanied her and her >> son on a >> donkey down the mountain to Split where she boarded a ship to the US. >> But >> when she arrived in NYC she did not have the required $ 10 to >> disembark so >> she and her child were held in detention five days until Grandpa >> could be >> located and send the cash. >> >> Maternal grandfather: Peter Vucinovich - born and reared in the >> Bosnian >> (next to Croatia) border village of Stabandja. Left home at age 8 >> (that's >> right, age 8) to work as a groom on a horse farm in Germany. Never saw >> parents or siblings again. At age 15 left the horse farm and worked at >> various labor jobs until age 21 when he was recruited by a steel >> company to >> work in a mill near Pittsburgh. >> >> Maternal grandmother: Kata Brezovic, born in Sislavic, a village on >> the Kupa >> River near Karlovac. Her parents had gone to the US to make their >> fortune >> and owned a boarding house for mostly single, male, Slavic >> millworkers. They >> left Kata with her Grandma. When she was 14 and becoming a handful >> for her >> grandma, her parents arranged a marriage and had her sent in 1915 >> alone to >> the US. Since she could not travel alone unless she was 18, that is >> what she >> "became" when she was asked her age at the port. Since she needed to >> be 21 >> to get married, that is what she "became" on the marriage certificate. >> Although her 15th birthday actually occurred enroute, on paper poor >> Katie >> aged six years in as many weeks. >> >> Opportunity abounded in the US that simply was not available in the >> "old >> country." Yes, there were problems - my maternal great grandfather was >> injured (crippled) in a coal mine accident and with no workers >> compensation, >> they found an old railroad boxcar and started a boarding house in it. >> They >> thrived. Their children thrived - one uncle, Pete Nikolich became a >> prominent person in waste removal on Long Island. Tatiana, if you are >> near >> Bay shore you might have seen his trucks. >> >> From those humble beginnings their grandchildren yielded three >> doctors, >> several very successful businesspeople, a noted research librarian, a >> counselor, musicians, an Army General, a nun, an investment >> counselor, an >> engineer, and many other success stories. In fairness, visits to the >> "Old >> Country" shows a modicum of success as well by those who stayed - >> engineers, >> construction company owners, and others, but the success pales in >> comparison >> with that available in a country that experienced phenomenal post-WWII >> growth, is so huge, and has so many natural resources. >> >> One final note, while those whose predecessors settled in America in >> the >> late 19th or early 20th century hit the lottery simply by making the >> move, >> many Croatians migrated to other areas of the world - Australia, New >> Zealand, South America, and other parts of Europe (by posting on a >> bulletin >> board I found a cousin whose parents moved to the Czech Republic >> during the >> 90s war in Croatia, and he's done 200 years of family genealogy that >> he >> shared with me). So I think we must keep a couple of things in mind: >> first, >> our heritage is comprised of people who are risk takers and willing to >> relocate for opportunity, and second, that America (we are so >> arrogant that >> when we say America we mean the US, but there are other parts of >> America - >> namely Canada, Central and South America) provided a bonanza of >> opportunity >> despite the long workdays, little compensation, and often horrible >> working >> conditions. Our people simply dealt with those and other issues as >> obstacles >> that needed to be overcome - so they were overcome. >> >> I also thoroughly enjoy reading other success stories from fellow >> descendents of Croatia. I've learned much from this site and am a >> better >> informed person as the result. >> >> Andy from Vegas. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: William F Kane [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> >> Margaret, I love your stories. >> My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and >> they >> came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and >> the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm >> going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes >> they >> were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to >> England. >> They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives >> followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. >> Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country >> and they advanced and their children got a better life and their >> children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in >> America. >> They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see >> relatives who stayed. >> My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the >> Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre >> plot of >> land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the >> men >> and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by >> the >> men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. >> Her >> father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. >> All >> winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the >> summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling >> his >> wares. >> There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group >> picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The >> picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They >> all >> have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. >> They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his >> brother >> got the rope making business when their father died. It could not >> support >> two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. >> Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys >> behind >> until he was settled. >> Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the >> family >> getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to >> survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, >> married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work >> and >> then the followers went to stay with them after they went through >> Ellis >> Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then >> they sent for their wives, >> Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother >> and >> all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no >> longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or >> summer, >> to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she >> had >> to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from >> the >> living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the >> mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work >> there >> for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books >> and >> the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them >> became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to >> college. >> I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based >> on >> the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on >> the >> expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. >> >> The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the >> story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of >> life >> in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus >> from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. >> Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life >> in >> Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and >> their >> early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies >> including >> the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, >> The >> Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy >> to >> the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the >> Croatian >> Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of >> either >> book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. >> (very >> close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on >> this >> site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try >> getting a >> copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE >> SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The >> ISBN >> is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is >> 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. >> Bill Kane >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 >> >

Our German friends are deceased now, but they vacationed well. They would go to Spain and rent a beach cottage or a camper. They came to visit us when we lived in Turkey. They would buy their cigarettes in Spain as they were cheaper. Then they started coming to American and went all over and took a trip to Mexico City. They spent lots of money and didn't seem to be afraid of anything. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gayle Riordan" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:54 PM Subject: [CROATIA-L] vacation time on the family discussion > Margaret, > You forgot to mention the German cousins get a paid month's vacation every > year. Even if they are younger generation, un - arthritic, and well paid, > I do envy them, and have done so since college, the paid extensive > vacation time. Remember that most of France closes down in August? > Everybody has 3 or 4 weeks off. England sort of shuts down during the > Christmas and New Year holiday, despite the masses of EU shoppers. Italy > has paid 3 week minimum vacations too, but I never noticed any hot spots: > maybe they spread them out across the year? Maybe they take them in > winter to avoid the summer tourists, like me? > > Ashley > > > On Apr 27, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Jerome Buza wrote: > >> Andy, that was a wonderful story. God bless our ancestors and those that >> still struggle in Croatia and the other countries over there. My mom's >> cousins that went to Germany are doing very well now and one went to >> Portugal and married a doctor. The younger generation of those in >> Germany travel the world, backpacking, and they are not afraid and are >> very strong people. They will save for a year and then go for a month >> and have a wonderful time. >> Margaret >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Andrew Nixon" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:53 AM >> Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> >> >>> Ah, yes, immigrants' actual stories instead of judgmental diatribe. Here >>> is >>> a brief synopsis of mine: Paternal Grandfather: Shortly after the turn >>> of >>> the 20th century Marion Nikolich, age 19, was drafted into the army, >>> trained >>> as a medic and as a soldier, placed on loan to the German army. The >>> kingdom >>> of Serbs Croats, and Slovenes was about the only ally Germany had at >>> that >>> time and things were getting a bit dicey - war was brewing. The >>> European >>> economy was depressed. While on duty he was approached by a steel mill >>> recruiter and left for Chicago - later to settle in the Pittsburgh area. >>> (AWOL? Probably did not translate well ;-)). When he returned to his >>> village >>> near Imotski five years later to see his wife and by then, 6-year old >>> child, >>> the village elders told him he was about to be arrested for desertion so >>> that night he high tailed it to Trieste and back to the US, sending for >>> his >>> wife later. >>> >>> Paternal grandmother Mara Nikolich: Brother accompanied her and her son >>> on a >>> donkey down the mountain to Split where she boarded a ship to the US. >>> But >>> when she arrived in NYC she did not have the required $ 10 to disembark >>> so >>> she and her child were held in detention five days until Grandpa could >>> be >>> located and send the cash. >>> >>> Maternal grandfather: Peter Vucinovich - born and reared in the Bosnian >>> (next to Croatia) border village of Stabandja. Left home at age 8 >>> (that's >>> right, age 8) to work as a groom on a horse farm in Germany. Never saw >>> parents or siblings again. At age 15 left the horse farm and worked at >>> various labor jobs until age 21 when he was recruited by a steel company >>> to >>> work in a mill near Pittsburgh. >>> >>> Maternal grandmother: Kata Brezovic, born in Sislavic, a village on the >>> Kupa >>> River near Karlovac. Her parents had gone to the US to make their >>> fortune >>> and owned a boarding house for mostly single, male, Slavic millworkers. >>> They >>> left Kata with her Grandma. When she was 14 and becoming a handful for >>> her >>> grandma, her parents arranged a marriage and had her sent in 1915 alone >>> to >>> the US. Since she could not travel alone unless she was 18, that is what >>> she >>> "became" when she was asked her age at the port. Since she needed to be >>> 21 >>> to get married, that is what she "became" on the marriage certificate. >>> Although her 15th birthday actually occurred enroute, on paper poor >>> Katie >>> aged six years in as many weeks. >>> >>> Opportunity abounded in the US that simply was not available in the "old >>> country." Yes, there were problems - my maternal great grandfather was >>> injured (crippled) in a coal mine accident and with no workers >>> compensation, >>> they found an old railroad boxcar and started a boarding house in it. >>> They >>> thrived. Their children thrived - one uncle, Pete Nikolich became a >>> prominent person in waste removal on Long Island. Tatiana, if you are >>> near >>> Bay shore you might have seen his trucks. >>> >>> From those humble beginnings their grandchildren yielded three doctors, >>> several very successful businesspeople, a noted research librarian, a >>> counselor, musicians, an Army General, a nun, an investment counselor, >>> an >>> engineer, and many other success stories. In fairness, visits to the >>> "Old >>> Country" shows a modicum of success as well by those who stayed - >>> engineers, >>> construction company owners, and others, but the success pales in >>> comparison >>> with that available in a country that experienced phenomenal post-WWII >>> growth, is so huge, and has so many natural resources. >>> >>> One final note, while those whose predecessors settled in America in the >>> late 19th or early 20th century hit the lottery simply by making the >>> move, >>> many Croatians migrated to other areas of the world - Australia, New >>> Zealand, South America, and other parts of Europe (by posting on a >>> bulletin >>> board I found a cousin whose parents moved to the Czech Republic during >>> the >>> 90s war in Croatia, and he's done 200 years of family genealogy that he >>> shared with me). So I think we must keep a couple of things in mind: >>> first, >>> our heritage is comprised of people who are risk takers and willing to >>> relocate for opportunity, and second, that America (we are so arrogant >>> that >>> when we say America we mean the US, but there are other parts of >>> America - >>> namely Canada, Central and South America) provided a bonanza of >>> opportunity >>> despite the long workdays, little compensation, and often horrible >>> working >>> conditions. Our people simply dealt with those and other issues as >>> obstacles >>> that needed to be overcome - so they were overcome. >>> >>> I also thoroughly enjoy reading other success stories from fellow >>> descendents of Croatia. I've learned much from this site and am a better >>> informed person as the result. >>> >>> Andy from Vegas. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: William F Kane [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >>> >>> Margaret, I love your stories. >>> My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they >>> came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and >>> the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm >>> going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes >>> they >>> were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to >>> England. >>> They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives >>> followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. >>> Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country >>> and they advanced and their children got a better life and their >>> children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in >>> America. >>> They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see >>> relatives who stayed. >>> My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the >>> Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot >>> of >>> land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men >>> and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by >>> the >>> men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. >>> Her >>> father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All >>> winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the >>> summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his >>> wares. >>> There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group >>> picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The >>> picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They >>> all >>> have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. >>> They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother >>> got the rope making business when their father died. It could not >>> support >>> two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. >>> Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind >>> until he was settled. >>> Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the >>> family >>> getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to >>> survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, >>> married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work >>> and >>> then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis >>> Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then >>> they sent for their wives, >>> Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother >>> and >>> all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no >>> longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or >>> summer, >>> to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she >>> had >>> to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the >>> living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the >>> mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there >>> for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and >>> the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them >>> became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to >>> college. >>> I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on >>> the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on >>> the >>> expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. >>> >>> The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the >>> story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life >>> in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus >>> from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. >>> Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in >>> Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and >>> their >>> early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including >>> the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, >>> The >>> Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to >>> the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian >>> Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either >>> book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very >>> close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on >>> this >>> site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting >>> a >>> copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE >>> SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The >>> ISBN >>> is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is >>> 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. >>> Bill Kane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 >>> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >

Don't be so touchy. Anti US hate? A bit paranoid don't you think?!. I do know my facts and was living at the other end of the immigration story. This is simply my view based on my experiences as a Croatian living in Croatia. My point was that not everyone finds a potato in the US either therefore suggesting that everyone today and in the past immigrates only because they are hungry is a huge generalization. No hate intended just fact. Yes many did make a better life for themselves but just as many did not. Perhaps you should read some literature such as Janko Matko's ZRTVA and MOC ZEMLJE to educate yourself on the lives of your ancestors in their homeland I guess you have to be an immigrant to understand. And I suspect that a continuation of the topic would be a huge waste of energy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jerin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Oh my goodness, what a tirade of anti-US hate! Talk about arrogance! > Perhaps you need to check some facts before posting such stuff! Not many > Croatians settled in large cities such as you described, the largest > number of Croatians settled in SW Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh area. The > largest concentration by percent settled in Calumet Michigan. From the > families I know, yes they worked hard but most did make a better life for > their families... the same as they did in Australia, Canada, S. America or > wherever they settled. > > And no not every peasant in the village found a potato! And not every > immigrant settled and lived in such horrid conditions as you describe. > And yes at one time people came to America for a better life and in some > cases even if they had some money they came to America for land, much as > they have done in Australia. > > Robert Jerin > Croatian Heritage Museum > Cleveland Ohio > > Betty <[email protected]> wrote: > What arrogance to assume that only in the US people eat. I wonder what the > hungry and homless in the US today would say to that, where can they > immigrate to? > > Not everyone stayed because they wanted to. Many immigrants (husbands and > fathers who left their families behind) were enticed by stories of the > good > life and easy money in America. They believed that if they worked hard > they > would be rewarded. > > Reality for most of them was that they toiled from dawn to dusk for little > pay and lived in terrible conditions so they could send money to support > loved ones left behind. They were hungry in America and would have gone > back home if they could afford to. > > Many stayed because they were ashamed to return home poor. So they saved > for years before they could bring wives and children to join them . Just > as > those lucky to earn enough saved, many never saw their families again. > > A pesant from a village can find a potato, what can he eat in a rat > infested > city with thousands of other souls atempting to survive. I cannot imagine > that going hungry alone in an American city would be preferable to his > village. > > Not everyone went to America for food because not everyone in the US eats > not even today. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "palocat" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> Our ancestors came to the US or Canada because they did not have enough >> to >> eat -- it is as simple as that, period. No one leaves their home region >> (or country) without a reason that is usually tied to economics. They >> were >> dirt poor; they were peasants with a life so difficult that we cannot >> imagine it today living in the mostly comfortable conditions of our >> times. >> Sure, they were recruited, but because the reward was enough food to eat >> and generally an absence of the Crown that made life so harsh -- we >> sometime like to glamorize their difficult journey, but please always >> remember those words on the Statue of Liberty -- they say it was like it >> was -- miserable and oppressive in their home area. People do not leave >> their home if everything is comfortable and economically well -- our >> ancestors had the guts to try to better themselves!!! >> >> Matt >> >> PS -- The above does not only refer to Croatians, but to all those who >> came here in the past and to those that are still coming by the thousands >> each and every day -- legally and illegally. And, yes, I have been to >> Croatia (I speak the language), and to most of the rest of Europe and >> Asia. >> >> >> >> On Apr 25, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Karen Heiser wrote: >> >>> Okay , you raise a valid issue: why did our ancestors leave their homes >>> to >>> come to America? >>> In MANY, MANY cases, the reason is not noble. Many came because they >>> were >>> lied to by recruiters from America who were looking for cheap labor in >>> their >>> mines and factories. And on top of that they had to put up with >>> discrimination to boot! (Does the term BOHUNK come to mind?) >>> Karen Heiser, >>> Weed, Siskiyou, CA >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "ashley tiwara" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:57 AM >>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >>> >>> >>>> The strength of this list to my mind is the family discussion, as >>>> Margaret >>> said. Occasional old boy comments about golf are acceptable as long as >>> the >>> golf duffers consider it appropriate for women to make postings about >>> matters like voting rights and union organizing. Women and men died so >>> that >>> we could have the right to vote, to organize, and I don't mean died only >>> on >>> the picket line. >>>> Many of those who have fought in America's declared wars would say >>> they fought for the rights guaranteed them by the Constitution and Bill >>> of >>> Rights. If their deaths have no meaning, it comes when free speech is >>> denied their descendants. >>>> Were your Croatian ancestors looking for freedom of religion? for >>>> the >>> right to own property and pass on an inheritance to their children? >>> Serfdom >>> survived in parts of Europe notably including Austria until the post WW1 >>> years. Public schools were common in the USA by 1900, they were still >>> rather unusual in Europe then. Maybe your grandparents or great - >>> grandparents left Europe to go to New Zealand or Argentina or the USA so >>> that their children's children could learn to read. >>>> So that they could someday use the internet. >>>> So they'd have access to the resources this mailing list represents. >>> Instead of being locked into a medieval world where neither they nor >>> their >>> children had the right to choose their religious preferences, or the >>> right >>> to an education, or the right to vote for their rulers, inherit the land >>> they worked, or even the right to move on if the life they lead was >>> unsatisfactory to them. >>>> So they would have the possibility to eat roast lamb when they >>>> wanted >>> to or golf when they chose to instead of lamb once a year and sports and >>> games for little children only. >>>> >>>> Genealogy is more than dates and facts. >>>> Ashley >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: William F Kane >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 4:06 PM >>>> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: Girls and boys >>>> >>>> >>>> There is another old Croatian saying that was true 100 years ago and >>>> maybe even just a few years ago in some rural parts of Croatia. "a >>>> woman holds down three corners of the farm and helps her husband with >>> the >>>> forth." I think we are all aware of how hard our mothers and >>>> grandmothers worked with out much recognition. Things have changed >>>> however. Lets get back to genealogy. I apologize for sending one >>>> e-mail >>>> in reply to the golfing inquiry. I don't even golf. >>>> Bill Kane >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 >> >> > > > > Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about > a wonderful tour of Croatia! > > http://www.kollander-travel.com/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 > >

Bee, What a wonderful story! Thank you for sharing that. I can recall as a small boy in the early and mid 50s packing boxes to go to Croatia. But then much of Europe did not fully recover from WW II at that time. My family had wooden floors in their 2 level home even at that time in Vini Vrh, near Ozalj. But when we visited in 1999, my first trip to stari kraj, the first home we stopped in front of was not our family's. In that home lived a sweet baka who directed us to the home a couple of doors from hers. One thing I noticed was that had dirt floors, which in spite of that fact looked "highly polished" and clean. Yet my cousin had built a new home behind our old 2 story family home. This is not to belittle anyone, as in the US we have similar situations in rural areas and in inner cities. But just to concur with what you saw in the 1950s, although conditions have improved economically. In part that improvement was due to the generally improved economy in the 1960s (Tito was cleaver in that his "split" with the Soviets enc! ouraged the west to send more foreign aid than was typically sent to commnist countries). The other contributing factor was the monies earned by those who went to work outside Croatia, particularly the "guest workers" in Germany and also those like my BAKALE cousins in the US who sent money every year since my Great Uncle Ivan arrived in the US in 1910! His adult children still send an envelope every year. One rather humerous story was told to me by a former CFU officer, who told me his family had sent money for many years to relatives living in the Dalmatian region. They had thought the family would use it for the purpose of putting in indoor plumbing. When he visited a few years ago the family thanked him and mentioned how nice the new TV and satelite dish was..... that they bought with the money! And they still had outdoor plumbing! But I must say is that a couple of changes, which are of greater significance, have taken place since 1991. And that is the fact that now you don't report to the government when visiting family, freedom of speech has increased and Croatians are in charge of their own destiny.... that is as far as NATO and the EU will allow it! In the end though I must agree that for the most part I find Croatians to be just what you said full of vitality, hard working, friendly and generous people! And I am proud to be descended from that nation! Robert [email protected] wrote: Yes, when I was there in 1956, I received quite an education about life. All but two relatives lived in very poor conditions in small villages. It was a shock to me, only 16 yrs old at the time. Thanks to my grandparents enterprise, we lived very well and I attended a Catholic girls boarding school. But when my grandmother and I got to Vrbanja, the living was worse than our poorest laborers on the farms. Dirt floors, very little food, slept in bare straw, no indoor plumbing, no running water, no electricity, and the clothing worn reminded me of pictures in National Geographic. At Tijerica, the conditions may have been even worse. (Oh, yes. I clutched my Nanny, as fully clothed and wrapped in our coats, we slept in a crib of straw; no linens--nothing. In the latter village, there was not even an outhouse. An aunt who could be described as an old crone, showed me the way in which the women, using their long full skirts as a shield from the public eye, let nature take its course!!!) Having noted that, I need to say that the people were simply wonderful. I came to respect and love the vitality and generosity of the Croatian people....and their spirituality, as well. In 1956, Tito was in power and it was Yugoslavia. There was much fear. We had to report in to the government, (which was the postal service), as well, every third day. We were cautioned repeatedly to watch our words, as anyone could be arrested and taken away at any time. It was very enlightening. Bee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Buza" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Rancic & Bravic > Bee, that was a nice story. My mom and dad got to visit the relatives in > Croatia and Slovenia in 1966. Mom enjoyed meeting them and had a good time, > but said she wished she could thank her parents for coming to America. Most > of the ones in Croatia, at that time, were still very poor and working in > the vineyards. Since the last war, we haven't heard from many of them and > figure that they are dead. My dad's family in Slovenia seemed to fare a bit > better and have government jobs at banks or the post office and they write > to us via email and send pictures. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RMB" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:54 PM > Subject: [CROATIA-L] Rancic & Bravic > > > > With or without the testiness of the dialogue, it is interesting to know > > about our ancestors coming to America. I tell and have written the > > stories > > of my grandparents so that my grandchildren and ancestors who will never > > know them, can know about their family. > > > > My grandfather, Ante Rancic, came to America to Leadville, Colorado and > > worked in the mines. His father took out a government loan with his > > vineyards as collateral so that he could come to the land that offered so > > much. Quite a number of young men and some cousins came at the same time. > > Ante treasured the possibilities that America offered and was determined > > to > > be a GOOD American. He knew that he needed to learn to read and write in > > order to improve himself and to leave mine work behind. > > > > My grandmother, Andja Bravic, came, alone, a few years later. Her brother > > who was already here sent for her. She ran his boarding house, doing all > > of > > the washing, cooking and cleaning for all of the boarders who worked in > > the > > mines. Her brother, Jure Bravic, decided that she should marry Ante, > > because he was a promising young man who also came from Dalmatia. (He > > also > > owned the best buggy in town with a lap robe that had a big topaz stone in > > it. Ah, the lure.....) > > > > Together, they moved to Globe, Arizona where she had boarders in their > > home > > and he had a co-op general store with other men from Croatia. She bore > > him > > 5 children in as many years. Then a shyster sold Ante on land in the El > > Paso Valley. Making a long story short, the land was barren & poor > > covered > > in mesquite. They worked very hard, fighting bandits and nature....floods > > and fires. Little by little, the land was tamed and Ante increased his > > holdings. They started as poor, immigrant settlers and ended up with > > wealth. > > > > Ante always appreciate the opportunity of America. He grabbed the brass > > ring > > with hard work and good will. He always remembered his religious teaching > > at the knee of his mother and his Croatian family, who he never saw again, > > as he died when he was in his fifties. But, Andja returned several times > > to > > Dalmatia when she was older, taking me with her one time. > > > > I am so proud of my grandparents. They are a true lesson about taking > > advantage of the opportunities. > > Bee > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > > > > > > ______________________________ Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

Margaret, The plum dumplings sound wonderful. Could you please share the recipe? When I was young my best friend`s mother used to make dumplings that were boiled with peaches in a sweet peach syrup. They were so good. Carol PS My mother was German/Irish and we also had rice sweetened with sugar, cinnamon, raisins and a little bit of milk. My mother always called this "instant raisin pudding". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Buza" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 2:48 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Tatjana, my mom always made the plum dumplings in August and September > when the "Italian" plums were in season and we ate like pigs. In later > years, we would eat them warm with vanilla ice cream. My son, Paul, is > after me to make them and I intend to do it when the plums are in season. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:52 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> Patty, no, you do not have to be poor to eat this. >> But it was mostly given to small children- at times with chocolate sauce >> or >> crushed >> chocolate. And to sick folks, rather light food. Guess similar to >> "chicken >> soup" by some. >> In Croatia rice was rather expensive. >> >> Margaret, as Croatian desserts go, my brother's favorite was "plum >> dumpling"= >> dumpling with a plum inside. He and his friends could eat quite a few of >> those! >> Tatjana >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 >> >> > >

Karen I enjoyed it in Zagreb where there were no English folks. They were not saving the expenses, but they did save on labor as they prepared it on Fridays when they had some timeconsuming household chores and they could use noodles in different combination for the same meal. My Viennese cookbook has the recipe and Vienna was (prior to my birth) the capital of multinational country which included Croatia. Seems now I am eating crow as after all my complaints about recipes I switched my messages to them. As they say: we are what we eat! or should I say: we write what we eat? Tatjana

How does your cookbook say to fix and serve this? My grandmother always said she was from Austria. So this would have come naturally to us from our Croatian roots. Bee ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Karen I enjoyed it in Zagreb where there were no English folks. > They were not saving the expenses, but they did save on labor as they > prepared it on Fridays when they had some timeconsuming household chores and they > could use noodles in different combination for the same meal. > My Viennese cookbook has the recipe and Vienna was (prior to my birth) the > capital of multinational country which included Croatia. > Seems now I am eating crow as after all my complaints about recipes I > switched my messages to them. As they say: we are what we eat! or should I say: we > write what we eat? > Tatjana > > ______________________________

Patty, no, you do not have to be poor to eat this. But it was mostly given to small children- at times with chocolate sauce or crushed chocolate. And to sick folks, rather light food. Guess similar to "chicken soup" by some. In Croatia rice was rather expensive. Margaret, as Croatian desserts go, my brother's favorite was "plum dumpling"= dumpling with a plum inside. He and his friends could eat quite a few of those! Tatjana

I sit here reading your wonderful stories and wish I had some to share with you. All I know is that my grandfather Jedinak came to the US in 1901 and my grandmother Vugrincic in 1908 and they married in 1911. I wish my father had shared family stories from Croatia with us. Treasure your wonderful stories....... I have always wondered why they came to the US and why they came. Thank you for all your wonderful stories and please keep them coming. My parents also gave us rice with milk and sugar. Now I think I understand where it came from. Kathy Jerome Buza <[email protected]> wrote:Andy, that was a wonderful story. God bless our ancestors and those that still struggle in Croatia and the other countries over there. My mom's cousins that went to Germany are doing very well now and one went to Portugal and married a doctor. The younger generation of those in Germany travel the world, backpacking, and they are not afraid and are very strong people. They will save for a year and then go for a month and have a wonderful time. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Andrew Nixon" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Ah, yes, immigrants' actual stories instead of judgmental diatribe. Here > is > a brief synopsis of mine: Paternal Grandfather: Shortly after the turn of > the 20th century Marion Nikolich, age 19, was drafted into the army, > trained > as a medic and as a soldier, placed on loan to the German army. The > kingdom > of Serbs Croats, and Slovenes was about the only ally Germany had at that > time and things were getting a bit dicey - war was brewing. The European > economy was depressed. While on duty he was approached by a steel mill > recruiter and left for Chicago - later to settle in the Pittsburgh area. > (AWOL? Probably did not translate well ;-)). When he returned to his > village > near Imotski five years later to see his wife and by then, 6-year old > child, > the village elders told him he was about to be arrested for desertion so > that night he high tailed it to Trieste and back to the US, sending for > his > wife later. > > Paternal grandmother Mara Nikolich: Brother accompanied her and her son on > a > donkey down the mountain to Split where she boarded a ship to the US. But > when she arrived in NYC she did not have the required $ 10 to disembark so > she and her child were held in detention five days until Grandpa could be > located and send the cash. > > Maternal grandfather: Peter Vucinovich - born and reared in the Bosnian > (next to Croatia) border village of Stabandja. Left home at age 8 (that's > right, age 8) to work as a groom on a horse farm in Germany. Never saw > parents or siblings again. At age 15 left the horse farm and worked at > various labor jobs until age 21 when he was recruited by a steel company > to > work in a mill near Pittsburgh. > > Maternal grandmother: Kata Brezovic, born in Sislavic, a village on the > Kupa > River near Karlovac. Her parents had gone to the US to make their fortune > and owned a boarding house for mostly single, male, Slavic millworkers. > They > left Kata with her Grandma. When she was 14 and becoming a handful for her > grandma, her parents arranged a marriage and had her sent in 1915 alone to > the US. Since she could not travel alone unless she was 18, that is what > she > "became" when she was asked her age at the port. Since she needed to be 21 > to get married, that is what she "became" on the marriage certificate. > Although her 15th birthday actually occurred enroute, on paper poor Katie > aged six years in as many weeks. > > Opportunity abounded in the US that simply was not available in the "old > country." Yes, there were problems - my maternal great grandfather was > injured (crippled) in a coal mine accident and with no workers > compensation, > they found an old railroad boxcar and started a boarding house in it. They > thrived. Their children thrived - one uncle, Pete Nikolich became a > prominent person in waste removal on Long Island. Tatiana, if you are near > Bay shore you might have seen his trucks. > > From those humble beginnings their grandchildren yielded three doctors, > several very successful businesspeople, a noted research librarian, a > counselor, musicians, an Army General, a nun, an investment counselor, an > engineer, and many other success stories. In fairness, visits to the "Old > Country" shows a modicum of success as well by those who stayed - > engineers, > construction company owners, and others, but the success pales in > comparison > with that available in a country that experienced phenomenal post-WWII > growth, is so huge, and has so many natural resources. > > One final note, while those whose predecessors settled in America in the > late 19th or early 20th century hit the lottery simply by making the move, > many Croatians migrated to other areas of the world - Australia, New > Zealand, South America, and other parts of Europe (by posting on a > bulletin > board I found a cousin whose parents moved to the Czech Republic during > the > 90s war in Croatia, and he's done 200 years of family genealogy that he > shared with me). So I think we must keep a couple of things in mind: > first, > our heritage is comprised of people who are risk takers and willing to > relocate for opportunity, and second, that America (we are so arrogant > that > when we say America we mean the US, but there are other parts of America - > namely Canada, Central and South America) provided a bonanza of > opportunity > despite the long workdays, little compensation, and often horrible working > conditions. Our people simply dealt with those and other issues as > obstacles > that needed to be overcome - so they were overcome. > > I also thoroughly enjoy reading other success stories from fellow > descendents of Croatia. I've learned much from this site and am a better > informed person as the result. > > Andy from Vegas. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William F Kane [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > Margaret, I love your stories. > My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they > came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and > the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm > going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes they > were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to England. > They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives > followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. > Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country > and they advanced and their children got a better life and their > children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in America. > They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see > relatives who stayed. > My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the > Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot of > land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men > and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by the > men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. Her > father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All > winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the > summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his > wares. > There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group > picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The > picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They all > have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. > They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother > got the rope making business when their father died. It could not support > two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. > Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind > until he was settled. > Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the family > getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to > survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, > married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work and > then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis > Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then > they sent for their wives, > Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother and > all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no > longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or summer, > to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she had > to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the > living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the > mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there > for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and > the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them > became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to > college. > I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on > the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on the > expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. > > The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the > story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life > in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus > from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. > Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in > Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and their > early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including > the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, The > Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to > the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian > Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either > book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very > close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on this > site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting a > copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE > SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The ISBN > is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is > 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. > Bill Kane > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >

Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite dessert. Tatjana In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) Reply-to: [email protected] To: [email protected] Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, I would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother and I would enjoy it. My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile Corp. They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit and went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to heaven. Thank you for your stories. Margaret ----- Original Message -----

I always thought it was a depression thing. My mother in law served noodles with her home made grape jelly for the kids usually the day before dad brought his pay check home. She also made spaghetti with a sauce made from ketchup and milk. Again a cheap meal and she didn't know Italian food. Another favorite of mine were her raised rolls each with a plum inside them. Oh how I'd like to have one now. When I was courting Sylvia, I took her to an Italian restaurant and her eyes beamed after she tasted her food. She said I never liked spaghetti and then she told me how her mother had served it to them as kids. If we have leftover rice I will eat it with sugar and cinnamon for dessert. Good. Bill

Andy, that was a wonderful story. God bless our ancestors and those that still struggle in Croatia and the other countries over there. My mom's cousins that went to Germany are doing very well now and one went to Portugal and married a doctor. The younger generation of those in Germany travel the world, backpacking, and they are not afraid and are very strong people. They will save for a year and then go for a month and have a wonderful time. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Andrew Nixon" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Ah, yes, immigrants' actual stories instead of judgmental diatribe. Here > is > a brief synopsis of mine: Paternal Grandfather: Shortly after the turn of > the 20th century Marion Nikolich, age 19, was drafted into the army, > trained > as a medic and as a soldier, placed on loan to the German army. The > kingdom > of Serbs Croats, and Slovenes was about the only ally Germany had at that > time and things were getting a bit dicey - war was brewing. The European > economy was depressed. While on duty he was approached by a steel mill > recruiter and left for Chicago - later to settle in the Pittsburgh area. > (AWOL? Probably did not translate well ;-)). When he returned to his > village > near Imotski five years later to see his wife and by then, 6-year old > child, > the village elders told him he was about to be arrested for desertion so > that night he high tailed it to Trieste and back to the US, sending for > his > wife later. > > Paternal grandmother Mara Nikolich: Brother accompanied her and her son on > a > donkey down the mountain to Split where she boarded a ship to the US. But > when she arrived in NYC she did not have the required $ 10 to disembark so > she and her child were held in detention five days until Grandpa could be > located and send the cash. > > Maternal grandfather: Peter Vucinovich - born and reared in the Bosnian > (next to Croatia) border village of Stabandja. Left home at age 8 (that's > right, age 8) to work as a groom on a horse farm in Germany. Never saw > parents or siblings again. At age 15 left the horse farm and worked at > various labor jobs until age 21 when he was recruited by a steel company > to > work in a mill near Pittsburgh. > > Maternal grandmother: Kata Brezovic, born in Sislavic, a village on the > Kupa > River near Karlovac. Her parents had gone to the US to make their fortune > and owned a boarding house for mostly single, male, Slavic millworkers. > They > left Kata with her Grandma. When she was 14 and becoming a handful for her > grandma, her parents arranged a marriage and had her sent in 1915 alone to > the US. Since she could not travel alone unless she was 18, that is what > she > "became" when she was asked her age at the port. Since she needed to be 21 > to get married, that is what she "became" on the marriage certificate. > Although her 15th birthday actually occurred enroute, on paper poor Katie > aged six years in as many weeks. > > Opportunity abounded in the US that simply was not available in the "old > country." Yes, there were problems - my maternal great grandfather was > injured (crippled) in a coal mine accident and with no workers > compensation, > they found an old railroad boxcar and started a boarding house in it. They > thrived. Their children thrived - one uncle, Pete Nikolich became a > prominent person in waste removal on Long Island. Tatiana, if you are near > Bay shore you might have seen his trucks. > > From those humble beginnings their grandchildren yielded three doctors, > several very successful businesspeople, a noted research librarian, a > counselor, musicians, an Army General, a nun, an investment counselor, an > engineer, and many other success stories. In fairness, visits to the "Old > Country" shows a modicum of success as well by those who stayed - > engineers, > construction company owners, and others, but the success pales in > comparison > with that available in a country that experienced phenomenal post-WWII > growth, is so huge, and has so many natural resources. > > One final note, while those whose predecessors settled in America in the > late 19th or early 20th century hit the lottery simply by making the move, > many Croatians migrated to other areas of the world - Australia, New > Zealand, South America, and other parts of Europe (by posting on a > bulletin > board I found a cousin whose parents moved to the Czech Republic during > the > 90s war in Croatia, and he's done 200 years of family genealogy that he > shared with me). So I think we must keep a couple of things in mind: > first, > our heritage is comprised of people who are risk takers and willing to > relocate for opportunity, and second, that America (we are so arrogant > that > when we say America we mean the US, but there are other parts of America - > namely Canada, Central and South America) provided a bonanza of > opportunity > despite the long workdays, little compensation, and often horrible working > conditions. Our people simply dealt with those and other issues as > obstacles > that needed to be overcome - so they were overcome. > > I also thoroughly enjoy reading other success stories from fellow > descendents of Croatia. I've learned much from this site and am a better > informed person as the result. > > Andy from Vegas. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: William F Kane [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > Margaret, I love your stories. > My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they > came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and > the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm > going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes they > were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to England. > They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives > followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. > Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country > and they advanced and their children got a better life and their > children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in America. > They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see > relatives who stayed. > My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the > Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot of > land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men > and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by the > men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. Her > father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All > winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the > summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his > wares. > There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group > picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The > picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They all > have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. > They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother > got the rope making business when their father died. It could not support > two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. > Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind > until he was settled. > Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the family > getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to > survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, > married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work and > then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis > Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then > they sent for their wives, > Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother and > all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no > longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or summer, > to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she had > to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the > living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the > mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there > for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and > the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them > became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to > college. > I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on > the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on the > expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. > > The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the > story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life > in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus > from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. > Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in > Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and their > early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including > the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, The > Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to > the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian > Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either > book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very > close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on this > site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting a > copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE > SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The ISBN > is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is > 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. > Bill Kane > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >

Tatjana, my mom always made the plum dumplings in August and September when the "Italian" plums were in season and we ate like pigs. In later years, we would eat them warm with vanilla ice cream. My son, Paul, is after me to make them and I intend to do it when the plums are in season. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Patty, no, you do not have to be poor to eat this. > But it was mostly given to small children- at times with chocolate sauce > or > crushed > chocolate. And to sick folks, rather light food. Guess similar to "chicken > soup" by some. > In Croatia rice was rather expensive. > > Margaret, as Croatian desserts go, my brother's favorite was "plum > dumpling"= > dumpling with a plum inside. He and his friends could eat quite a few of > those! > Tatjana > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >

My Irish uncle used to eat rice with sugar and cream. He was one of 13 children. I think that was a stretch the food thing. When I took him to a Chinese restaurant when he visited us in Hawaii, he wanted sugar and cream for his rice. He was in his 70's then and loved that. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reuter, Patty" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:37 AM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > My parents had us eat rice with sugar and cream. Is that a depression era > food or a Croatian? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome Buza [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > We ate them for breakfast and for lunch. I tried to give my kids that and > they wanted no part of it even though they love noodles. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > >> Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite >> dessert. >> Tatjana >> >> In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion >> Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time >> From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) >> Reply-to: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> >> Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our >> spouses, >> I >> would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother >> and I would enjoy it. >> My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made >> fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his >> life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales >> as >> he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom >> would >> say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in >> Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the >> children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile >> Corp. >> They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a >> visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My >> mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit >> and >> went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. >> I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in >> Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate >> left >> over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to >> heaven. >> >> Thank you for your stories. >> Margaret >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 >> >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >

My parents had us eat rice with sugar and cream. Is that a depression era food or a Croatian? -----Original Message----- From: Jerome Buza [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:19 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion We ate them for breakfast and for lunch. I tried to give my kids that and they wanted no part of it even though they love noodles. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite > dessert. > Tatjana > > In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) > Reply-to: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, > I > would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother > and I would enjoy it. > My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made > fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his > life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as > he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would > say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in > Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the > children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile > Corp. > They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a > visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My > mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit > and > went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. > I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in > Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left > over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to > heaven. > > Thank you for your stories. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > > ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

I don't know the answer to this, but my Croatian grandmother gave it to me during WWII. I still love it. But, it was first given to me with butter, evaporated milk, and sugar. Yum. Bee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reuter, Patty" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > My parents had us eat rice with sugar and cream. Is that a depression era food or a Croatian? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome Buza [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > We ate them for breakfast and for lunch. I tried to give my kids that and > they wanted no part of it even though they love noodles. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > > Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite > > dessert. > > Tatjana > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time > > From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) > > Reply-to: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > > > Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, > > I > > would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother > > and I would enjoy it. > > My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made > > fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his > > life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as > > he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would > > say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in > > Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the > > children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile > > Corp. > > They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a > > visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My > > mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit > > and > > went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. > > I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in > > Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left > > over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to > > heaven. > > > > Thank you for your stories. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________

Yes, when I was there in 1956, I received quite an education about life. All but two relatives lived in very poor conditions in small villages. It was a shock to me, only 16 yrs old at the time. Thanks to my grandparents enterprise, we lived very well and I attended a Catholic girls boarding school. But when my grandmother and I got to Vrbanja, the living was worse than our poorest laborers on the farms. Dirt floors, very little food, slept in bare straw, no indoor plumbing, no running water, no electricity, and the clothing worn reminded me of pictures in National Geographic. At Tijerica, the conditions may have been even worse. (Oh, yes. I clutched my Nanny, as fully clothed and wrapped in our coats, we slept in a crib of straw; no linens--nothing. In the latter village, there was not even an outhouse. An aunt who could be described as an old crone, showed me the way in which the women, using their long full skirts as a shield from the public eye, let nature take its course!!!) Having noted that, I need to say that the people were simply wonderful. I came to respect and love the vitality and generosity of the Croatian people....and their spirituality, as well. In 1956, Tito was in power and it was Yugoslavia. There was much fear. We had to report in to the government, (which was the postal service), as well, every third day. We were cautioned repeatedly to watch our words, as anyone could be arrested and taken away at any time. It was very enlightening. Bee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerome Buza" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Rancic & Bravic > Bee, that was a nice story. My mom and dad got to visit the relatives in > Croatia and Slovenia in 1966. Mom enjoyed meeting them and had a good time, > but said she wished she could thank her parents for coming to America. Most > of the ones in Croatia, at that time, were still very poor and working in > the vineyards. Since the last war, we haven't heard from many of them and > figure that they are dead. My dad's family in Slovenia seemed to fare a bit > better and have government jobs at banks or the post office and they write > to us via email and send pictures. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RMB" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 2:54 PM > Subject: [CROATIA-L] Rancic & Bravic > > > > With or without the testiness of the dialogue, it is interesting to know > > about our ancestors coming to America. I tell and have written the > > stories > > of my grandparents so that my grandchildren and ancestors who will never > > know them, can know about their family. > > > > My grandfather, Ante Rancic, came to America to Leadville, Colorado and > > worked in the mines. His father took out a government loan with his > > vineyards as collateral so that he could come to the land that offered so > > much. Quite a number of young men and some cousins came at the same time. > > Ante treasured the possibilities that America offered and was determined > > to > > be a GOOD American. He knew that he needed to learn to read and write in > > order to improve himself and to leave mine work behind. > > > > My grandmother, Andja Bravic, came, alone, a few years later. Her brother > > who was already here sent for her. She ran his boarding house, doing all > > of > > the washing, cooking and cleaning for all of the boarders who worked in > > the > > mines. Her brother, Jure Bravic, decided that she should marry Ante, > > because he was a promising young man who also came from Dalmatia. (He > > also > > owned the best buggy in town with a lap robe that had a big topaz stone in > > it. Ah, the lure.....) > > > > Together, they moved to Globe, Arizona where she had boarders in their > > home > > and he had a co-op general store with other men from Croatia. She bore > > him > > 5 children in as many years. Then a shyster sold Ante on land in the El > > Paso Valley. Making a long story short, the land was barren & poor > > covered > > in mesquite. They worked very hard, fighting bandits and nature....floods > > and fires. Little by little, the land was tamed and Ante increased his > > holdings. They started as poor, immigrant settlers and ended up with > > wealth. > > > > Ante always appreciate the opportunity of America. He grabbed the brass > > ring > > with hard work and good will. He always remembered his religious teaching > > at the knee of his mother and his Croatian family, who he never saw again, > > as he died when he was in his fifties. But, Andja returned several times > > to > > Dalmatia when she was older, taking me with her one time. > > > > I am so proud of my grandparents. They are a true lesson about taking > > advantage of the opportunities. > > Bee > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > > > > > > ______________________________

That might be Depression Era food, because my Mom fixed it a lot (with cinnamon, too), and she was not the Croatian part of the family. (English) Karen Heiser Weed, Siskiyou, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reuter, Patty" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:37 AM Subject: RE: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > My parents had us eat rice with sugar and cream. Is that a depression era food or a Croatian? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome Buza [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > We ate them for breakfast and for lunch. I tried to give my kids that and > they wanted no part of it even though they love noodles. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:14 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > > > Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite > > dessert. > > Tatjana > > > > In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > [email protected] writes: > > > > << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > > Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time > > From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) > > Reply-to: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > > > Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, > > I > > would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother > > and I would enjoy it. > > My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made > > fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his > > life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as > > he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would > > say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in > > Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the > > children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile > > Corp. > > They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a > > visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My > > mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit > > and > > went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. > > I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in > > Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left > > over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to > > heaven. > > > > Thank you for your stories. > > Margaret > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan > service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working > around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ > >

Ah, yes, immigrants' actual stories instead of judgmental diatribe. Here is a brief synopsis of mine: Paternal Grandfather: Shortly after the turn of the 20th century Marion Nikolich, age 19, was drafted into the army, trained as a medic and as a soldier, placed on loan to the German army. The kingdom of Serbs Croats, and Slovenes was about the only ally Germany had at that time and things were getting a bit dicey - war was brewing. The European economy was depressed. While on duty he was approached by a steel mill recruiter and left for Chicago - later to settle in the Pittsburgh area. (AWOL? Probably did not translate well ;-)). When he returned to his village near Imotski five years later to see his wife and by then, 6-year old child, the village elders told him he was about to be arrested for desertion so that night he high tailed it to Trieste and back to the US, sending for his wife later. Paternal grandmother Mara Nikolich: Brother accompanied her and her son on a donkey down the mountain to Split where she boarded a ship to the US. But when she arrived in NYC she did not have the required $ 10 to disembark so she and her child were held in detention five days until Grandpa could be located and send the cash. Maternal grandfather: Peter Vucinovich - born and reared in the Bosnian (next to Croatia) border village of Stabandja. Left home at age 8 (that's right, age 8) to work as a groom on a horse farm in Germany. Never saw parents or siblings again. At age 15 left the horse farm and worked at various labor jobs until age 21 when he was recruited by a steel company to work in a mill near Pittsburgh. Maternal grandmother: Kata Brezovic, born in Sislavic, a village on the Kupa River near Karlovac. Her parents had gone to the US to make their fortune and owned a boarding house for mostly single, male, Slavic millworkers. They left Kata with her Grandma. When she was 14 and becoming a handful for her grandma, her parents arranged a marriage and had her sent in 1915 alone to the US. Since she could not travel alone unless she was 18, that is what she "became" when she was asked her age at the port. Since she needed to be 21 to get married, that is what she "became" on the marriage certificate. Although her 15th birthday actually occurred enroute, on paper poor Katie aged six years in as many weeks. Opportunity abounded in the US that simply was not available in the "old country." Yes, there were problems - my maternal great grandfather was injured (crippled) in a coal mine accident and with no workers compensation, they found an old railroad boxcar and started a boarding house in it. They thrived. Their children thrived - one uncle, Pete Nikolich became a prominent person in waste removal on Long Island. Tatiana, if you are near Bay shore you might have seen his trucks. From those humble beginnings their grandchildren yielded three doctors, several very successful businesspeople, a noted research librarian, a counselor, musicians, an Army General, a nun, an investment counselor, an engineer, and many other success stories. In fairness, visits to the "Old Country" shows a modicum of success as well by those who stayed - engineers, construction company owners, and others, but the success pales in comparison with that available in a country that experienced phenomenal post-WWII growth, is so huge, and has so many natural resources. One final note, while those whose predecessors settled in America in the late 19th or early 20th century hit the lottery simply by making the move, many Croatians migrated to other areas of the world - Australia, New Zealand, South America, and other parts of Europe (by posting on a bulletin board I found a cousin whose parents moved to the Czech Republic during the 90s war in Croatia, and he's done 200 years of family genealogy that he shared with me). So I think we must keep a couple of things in mind: first, our heritage is comprised of people who are risk takers and willing to relocate for opportunity, and second, that America (we are so arrogant that when we say America we mean the US, but there are other parts of America - namely Canada, Central and South America) provided a bonanza of opportunity despite the long workdays, little compensation, and often horrible working conditions. Our people simply dealt with those and other issues as obstacles that needed to be overcome - so they were overcome. I also thoroughly enjoy reading other success stories from fellow descendents of Croatia. I've learned much from this site and am a better informed person as the result. Andy from Vegas. -----Original Message----- From: William F Kane [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:31 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion Margaret, I love your stories. My own ancestors came to the US from French Canada and Ireland and they came for economic reasons. Life working in the N.E. shoe factories and the mills for low wages was better than trying to keep a failing farm going in Canada and the Irish, well it was the potato famine and yes they were starving while the Brits kept exporting the Irish grains to England. They lived in crowded tenements at first but when friends or relatives followed them they took them in until they got jobs and were settled. Yes, there was discrimination but life was better than the old country and they advanced and their children got a better life and their children's children went to college and enjoyed the good life in America. They never looked back except tor an occasional visit to Quebec to see relatives who stayed. My wife's family came from an agricultural area near the Austrian/Hungarian border. Most of the families had only a 6 acre plot of land to farm, not enough to sustain them. Life was hard for both the men and the women. Yes there were lines drawn as to what work was done by the men and what was done by the women. And yes the women got a raw deal. Her father's family were not farmers. They were the rope makers in town. All winter they made the ropes in their long narrow back yard and in the summer her g.grandfather went to the town fairs in the area selling his wares. There is a picture of my father in law at 10 years old. It is a group picture of his class, so yes he and his brother went to school. The picture is all boys (the girls were separated in another class), They all have jackets but only two have shoes the rest are all in bare feet. They came to the US for economic reasons. He grandfather and his brother got the rope making business when their father died. It could not support two families so it was decided that one of them would go to America. Frank, Sylvia's grandfather, left leaving his wife and three boys behind until he was settled. Her mothers family had a small farm just outside of town. With the family getting larger and land getting scarce they had to do something to survive. About 1900 the immigration began and many of the young men, married and single, left for America. The early immigrants found work and then the followers went to stay with them after they went through Ellis Island. Both of Sylvia's grandfathers settled in Kenosha WI. and then they sent for their wives, Her father was 13 when he arrived in 1914 with his mother and brother and all their belongings in a wicker basket. Life was hard but grandma no longer had to make a trip to the town well twice a day, winter or summer, to get water. Their apartment had a faucet in the kitchen and all she had to do was turn they spigot. It even had two bare bulbs hanging from the living room and main bedroom ceiling. Both grandfathers worked in the mattress factory. Her father, George Jambrek, left school to work there for the next 50 years. But he saw that his kids were educated. Books and the library were instilled in them from and early age. (two of them became librarians). And they all went to school and if possible on to college. I have written two books, one on the history of French Canards based on the lives of my ancestors going back to 1605 when one of them came on the expedition of Samuel de Chaplain. The second one is called THE BROT HERS AND THE SISTERS and it is the story of my wife's Croatian family. The first few chapters tell of life in Croatia in the late nineteenth century and then tells of the exodus from their village to America and their trials and triumphs in the US. Some of you might want to read it if you want some insight into life in Croatia at the turn of the century and their journey to America and their early adventures in this country. A few libraries have copies including the Wisconsin Historical Society Library, The Kenosha Public Library, The Southern California Genealogical Society Library. I also sent a copy to the CFU headquarters. I will also be glad to send a copy to the Croatian Heritage library is you want Robert. If any one wants a copy of either book I will sell them to people on this list for $15 postage paid. (very close to my costs). I promised myself I would never push my books on this site but after all this talk I thought I should. You might try getting a copy on interlibrary loan The title again is THE BROTHERS AND THE SISTERS A Story of Two Immigrant Families. by William F. Kane. The ISBN is 0-9715463-1-2 and the Library of Congress Control Number is 2003093335. which may help your library locate it. Bill Kane

We ate them for breakfast and for lunch. I tried to give my kids that and they wanted no part of it even though they love noodles. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Margaret, noodles with sugar and crushed walnuts was always my favorite > dessert. > Tatjana > > In a message dated 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > << Subj: Re: [CROATIA-L] family discussion > Date: 4/27/2005 12:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: [email protected] (Jerome Buza) > Reply-to: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Bill, if we ever get to the Efes to meet and have dinner with our spouses, > I > would love to buy one of those books from you. I am sure that my brother > and I would enjoy it. > My mom's dad was a DonauSchwaben and a fisherman on the Danube and made > fishing nets. It was not easy work and he didn't want to do that all his > life. He fished once in America, but for fun. I didn't hear his tales as > he died when I was 2 1/2 years old and I only remember things my mom would > say over the years. Once in America, I don't know what he did in > Philadelphia, while Grandma ran the rooming house and tended to the > children, but in Detroit he worked in the auto industry, for Hupmobile > Corp. > They both never saw their families again. Grandma was ready to go for a > visit when they got word that someone had died and she stayed here. My > mother and dad were the only ones to get over to Dalj and Semic to visit > and > went to Graz and saw a grave of one of the ancestors. > I know from my grandmothers recipes that they didn't eat a lot of meat in > Europe, but did enjoy chickens and made lots of noodles. We even ate left > over noodles with warm milk and sugar and thought we had died and went to > heaven. > > Thank you for your stories. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 4/27/2005 > >