I was born in before your daughter and my name is Joy Mary and I was baptized with that name. The priest never told my mom that. He told her that Joy was not a Christian name but later she found out it was. And I came from a Croatian and Italian family both Catholic. Joy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louise" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:46 AM Subject: [CROATIA-L] Re: CROATIA-D Digest V05 #149 > When I had my daughter baptized in Jan. 1962 in a parish in the Chicago > area > I told the priest that her name was to be Karen Marie. He said that he had > to use the Christian name Catherine Mary and that no name could come > before > Mary; therefore, she was baptized as Mary Catherine. > Louise > > > > On 5/11/05 3:00 AM, "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism >> >> The Christian name thing didn't end until after Vatican II for the >> Catholic's. I wanted "Cathy" but had to choose Catherine for the baptism >> of >> our daughter. Now, it seems like anything goes when I hear the names >> that >> the poor babies are being given by their parents. >> Margaret >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: " Karen Heiser" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:56 PM >

Valent was a very common name in Croatia but when Sylvia's grandfather came to the US it was changed to Valentine. the priests in French Canada would very often name the child themselves saying the name picked was not appropriate. Some of them even insisted that all girls have a Mary (Marie) in front of their name. My grandmother was Marie Louise. We have a friend who has 8 sisters and they are all named Mary something which she said caused all sorts of confusion when someone yelled Mary. The custom on our Croatian side was for the first male child to be named after the grandfather. In researching the ancestors we found every other generation had a George (or the Croatian or Latin equivalent) Jambrek. On the Shantek side it was Mio (Mike). Looking at old record in Slavonia we find a lot of people named after saints in the month they were born. Even some Balthazars in Dec. and Nicolas was popular around Dec 8. Babara was another very popular name around that saints day. Bill Kane

And to add to the Christian issue on naming, my Czech Republic 2nd cousin's daughter- in -law want to name her first daughter Nelli/Nelly. The priest said it wasn't a Czech/Christian name, so they had to use Nella... That was less that 16 years ago. Maybe things have changed? Anettka

When I had my daughter baptized in Jan. 1962 in a parish in the Chicago area I told the priest that her name was to be Karen Marie. He said that he had to use the Christian name Catherine Mary and that no name could come before Mary; therefore, she was baptized as Mary Catherine. Louise On 5/11/05 3:00 AM, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > > The Christian name thing didn't end until after Vatican II for the > Catholic's. I wanted "Cathy" but had to choose Catherine for the baptism of > our daughter. Now, it seems like anything goes when I hear the names that > the poor babies are being given by their parents. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " Karen Heiser" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:56 PM

When my mother was born, some 93 years ago, her Croatian parents lived in Leadville, Colorado. My grandmother made by hand a beautiful long baptismal dress. There were celebrations for three days, which my grandparents said were the custom in Dalmatia. There was much feasting and drinking of wine, etc. My grandfather named the children when they were born. However, with their first daughter, the midwife gave a name of her choosing. It infuriated my grandfather who changed it!! Bee

I was raised that you could only name your child the names of the saints, there were no other choices. I always wondered which saint my friend Brandi was named after. I have learned more about my history and become even more proud of my heritage since I joined this group. I want to say thanks to all of you who take the time to help us "less informed" Croatians realize how wonderful our heritage truly is. Patty -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Erbes [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism My Grandmother (born in Virovitica) was proud of her self-education once she got to America. She read all of Dickens, for example, and her reading library was large. Because of this, she called her last child Darwin. He lived with that until quite late in life when he discovered he was really John Darwin! Peg On May 11, 2005, at 1:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:56:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > >> Usually, the Priest just added "Mary" to a girl's name to make it a >> Christian name! I think they used "John" for boys. You often see >> M. Brenda >> or the >> like in a person's name. >> >> > You will shake your head at this one, Joan. Sandra (birth), Anna M. > (baptism), and Mary (confirmation) ... but they called me Marilyn > (school records) > until I discovered my 'real' name when I applied for my birth > certificate at > eighteen!!! What was the saying? "You can call me anything ... but > don't call me > late for dinner!" :))) > > Could be why I am so obsessed with genealogy. I want my descendants > to know > "who" I was by my right name. > Sandra > > > ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

My Grandmother (born in Virovitica) was proud of her self-education once she got to America. She read all of Dickens, for example, and her reading library was large. Because of this, she called her last child Darwin. He lived with that until quite late in life when he discovered he was really John Darwin! Peg On May 11, 2005, at 1:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:56:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > >> Usually, the Priest just added "Mary" to a girl's name to make it a >> Christian name! I think they used "John" for boys. You often see >> M. Brenda >> or the >> like in a person's name. >> >> > You will shake your head at this one, Joan. Sandra (birth), Anna M. > (baptism), and Mary (confirmation) ... but they called me Marilyn > (school records) > until I discovered my 'real' name when I applied for my birth > certificate at > eighteen!!! What was the saying? "You can call me anything ... but > don't call me > late for dinner!" :))) > > Could be why I am so obsessed with genealogy. I want my descendants > to know > "who" I was by my right name. > Sandra > > >

Names!!! My Cousin recently wrote me and asked why Grandma Sophie named her dad Valentine Vladimir. Well, I couldn't answer that question and just joked that he was concieved around Valentine's Day or the feast of St. Valentine. In finding a 4th cousin 4 x removed on the Donauschwaben site, and getting family roots back to 1710, I discovered that my Great great Grandfather was Valentin. So that answered our question. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:56:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > >> Usually, the Priest just added "Mary" to a girl's name to make it a >> Christian name! I think they used "John" for boys. You often see M. >> Brenda >> or the >> like in a person's name. >> > You will shake your head at this one, Joan. Sandra (birth), Anna M. > (baptism), and Mary (confirmation) ... but they called me Marilyn (school > records) > until I discovered my 'real' name when I applied for my birth certificate > at > eighteen!!! What was the saying? "You can call me anything ... but don't > call me > late for dinner!" :))) > > Could be why I am so obsessed with genealogy. I want my descendants to > know > "who" I was by my right name. > Sandra > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >

Hello Robert, Wish you hadn't told me about the women being burned to death. Seems there is a pattern here, as my maternal lineage goes back to the Mayflower. Enough said. The nice thing is that there is a connection to Croatia!! :) Now to read the history of Split. just plain ole, Sandra In a message dated 5/10/2005 7:00:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > SANDRA f Italian, English > Short form of ALESSANDRA.../ALEKSANDRA > > From Catholic Saints on line.... > St. Alexandra and Companions > Feastday: March 20300 Christian women, Alexandra, Claudia, Euphrasia, > Matrona, Juliana, Euphemia, Theodosia, Derphuta, and her sister, were martyred in > Amisus in Paphlagonia. The women were burned to death in the persecution of > Emperor Diocletian. > > So the name even has a connection to Croatia! As Diocletians Palace is > located in Split. > > Robert > [email protected] wrote: > In a message dated 5/10/2005 3:57:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > > As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the > > Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. > > > > The Church calendar states the day before my birth ... St. Bernardine of > Siena ... the day I was born ... St. Christopher Magallanes and Companions > ... the > day after, nothing. Beats me, Karen. All I know is that it was a German > priest ... don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. Certificate > states; Anna M. ... long way from Sandra and my godmother's name was > Florence. > Figure it out! :)) > "Sandra" > > > > Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a > wonderful tour of Croatia! > > http://www.kollander-travel.com/ >

In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:56:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Usually, the Priest just added "Mary" to a girl's name to make it a > Christian name! I think they used "John" for boys. You often see M. Brenda > or the > like in a person's name. > You will shake your head at this one, Joan. Sandra (birth), Anna M. (baptism), and Mary (confirmation) ... but they called me Marilyn (school records) until I discovered my 'real' name when I applied for my birth certificate at eighteen!!! What was the saying? "You can call me anything ... but don't call me late for dinner!" :))) Could be why I am so obsessed with genealogy. I want my descendants to know "who" I was by my right name. Sandra

Margaret, It just so happened that the neighborhood where I moved to, had Holy Rosary Slovak as it's parish Church. The priest did not bat an eyelash when I named my daughter, Lisa Jo. And he did NOT write on the Baptismal certificate ... Elizabeth Johanna or whatever! At least her birth, Baptismal and school records all carried the same name ... can't say the same for mine., unfortunately. :( My sister was able to get away with naming her daughter, Tiffanie Lynn. Her friend named her daughter, Shasta, after the dog of all things!!!!!! Times change. My oxtail stew is ready to be served. Yummy! Sandra in partly cloudy, cool, Las Vegas In a message dated 5/10/2005 5:41:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > The Christian name thing didn't end until after Vatican II for the > Catholic's. I wanted "Cathy" but had to choose Catherine for the baptism of > our daughter. Now, it seems like anything goes when I hear the names that > the poor babies are being given by their parents. > Margaret > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " Karen Heiser" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:56 PM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > > > > Sandra - Many would not allow "nicknames" either. i.e. "Beth" instead of > > "Elizabeth" or "Peggy" rather than "Margaret", "Bill" instead of > > "William", > > etc, etc. As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the > > Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. > > Karen Heiser, > > Weed, Siskiyou, CA > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > > > > > >> In a message dated 5/10/2005 8:11:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> > The monther did not go to church then because she was not > >> > 'purified/cleansed' from childbirth, and could not go into the church > > until she was. This > >> > usually occurred 6 weeks after the baby's birth, when her body returned > > to > >> > 'normal'.... sort of a thing left over from before christianity with > >> > the > > same > >> > thinking that the monthlies made a woman 'unclean'.... Interesting, > > isn't it! > >> > > >> > >> Thank you for the explanation ... all these years, I always thought that > > my > >> mother was not at my baptism because it might have been mother-in-law > > trouble. > >> :)) My two godparents, father and grandmother (his mother) were there for > > the > >> ceremony. Plus ... I was not given the name my mother wanted (birth > >> certificate name) ... still don't know who wanted the Baptism name. When > >> I > > asked years > >> later, I was told the priest said my birth name could not be used because > > it > >> was Greek and not a Christian name!!! > >> > >> I'll say, it's interesting! > >> Sandra >

In a message dated 5/10/2005 3:45:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: When I asked years later, I was told the priest said my birth name could not be used because it was Greek and not a Christian name!!! Usually, the Priest just added "Mary" to a girl's name to make it a Christian name! I think they used "John" for boys. You often see M. Brenda or the like in a person's name. Joan

In a message dated 5/10/2005 3:57:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the > Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. > The Church calendar states the day before my birth ... St. Bernardine of Siena ... the day I was born ... St. Christopher Magallanes and Companions ... the day after, nothing. Beats me, Karen. All I know is that it was a German priest ... don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. Certificate states; Anna M. ... long way from Sandra and my godmother's name was Florence. Figure it out! :)) "Sandra"

SANDRA f Italian, English Short form of ALESSANDRA.../ALEKSANDRA From Catholic Saints on line.... St. Alexandra and Companions Feastday: March 20300 Christian women, Alexandra, Claudia, Euphrasia, Matrona, Juliana, Euphemia, Theodosia, Derphuta, and her sister, were martyred in Amisus in Paphlagonia. The women were burned to death in the persecution of Emperor Diocletian. So the name even has a connection to Croatia! As Diocletians Palace is located in Split. Robert [email protected] wrote: In a message dated 5/10/2005 3:57:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the > Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. > The Church calendar states the day before my birth ... St. Bernardine of Siena ... the day I was born ... St. Christopher Magallanes and Companions ... the day after, nothing. Beats me, Karen. All I know is that it was a German priest ... don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. Certificate states; Anna M. ... long way from Sandra and my godmother's name was Florence. Figure it out! :)) "Sandra" Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

In a message dated 5/10/2005 8:11:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > The monther did not go to church then because she was not > 'purified/cleansed' from childbirth, and could not go into the church until she was. This > usually occurred 6 weeks after the baby's birth, when her body returned to > 'normal'.... sort of a thing left over from before christianity with the same > thinking that the monthlies made a woman 'unclean'.... Interesting, isn't it! > Thank you for the explanation ... all these years, I always thought that my mother was not at my baptism because it might have been mother-in-law trouble. :)) My two godparents, father and grandmother (his mother) were there for the ceremony. Plus ... I was not given the name my mother wanted (birth certificate name) ... still don't know who wanted the Baptism name. When I asked years later, I was told the priest said my birth name could not be used because it was Greek and not a Christian name!!! I'll say, it's interesting! Sandra

The Christian name thing didn't end until after Vatican II for the Catholic's. I wanted "Cathy" but had to choose Catherine for the baptism of our daughter. Now, it seems like anything goes when I hear the names that the poor babies are being given by their parents. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: " Karen Heiser" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > Sandra - Many would not allow "nicknames" either. i.e. "Beth" instead of > "Elizabeth" or "Peggy" rather than "Margaret", "Bill" instead of > "William", > etc, etc. As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the > Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. > Karen Heiser, > Weed, Siskiyou, CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:45 PM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > > >> In a message dated 5/10/2005 8:11:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> > The monther did not go to church then because she was not >> > 'purified/cleansed' from childbirth, and could not go into the church > until she was. This >> > usually occurred 6 weeks after the baby's birth, when her body returned > to >> > 'normal'.... sort of a thing left over from before christianity with >> > the > same >> > thinking that the monthlies made a woman 'unclean'.... Interesting, > isn't it! >> > >> >> Thank you for the explanation ... all these years, I always thought that > my >> mother was not at my baptism because it might have been mother-in-law > trouble. >> :)) My two godparents, father and grandmother (his mother) were there for > the >> ceremony. Plus ... I was not given the name my mother wanted (birth >> certificate name) ... still don't know who wanted the Baptism name. When >> I > asked years >> later, I was told the priest said my birth name could not be used because > it >> was Greek and not a Christian name!!! >> >> I'll say, it's interesting! >> Sandra >> >> > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005 > >

Sandra - Many would not allow "nicknames" either. i.e. "Beth" instead of "Elizabeth" or "Peggy" rather than "Margaret", "Bill" instead of "William", etc, etc. As for your Baptism name, the choice may have been made by the Church calendar...which of the Saints' days were you born on or near. Karen Heiser, Weed, Siskiyou, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] [Croatia} Baptism > In a message dated 5/10/2005 8:11:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > The monther did not go to church then because she was not > > 'purified/cleansed' from childbirth, and could not go into the church until she was. This > > usually occurred 6 weeks after the baby's birth, when her body returned to > > 'normal'.... sort of a thing left over from before christianity with the same > > thinking that the monthlies made a woman 'unclean'.... Interesting, isn't it! > > > > Thank you for the explanation ... all these years, I always thought that my > mother was not at my baptism because it might have been mother-in-law trouble. > :)) My two godparents, father and grandmother (his mother) were there for the > ceremony. Plus ... I was not given the name my mother wanted (birth > certificate name) ... still don't know who wanted the Baptism name. When I asked years > later, I was told the priest said my birth name could not be used because it > was Greek and not a Christian name!!! > > I'll say, it's interesting! > Sandra > >

RE: For some reason (I do not know why), the mother was not supposed to go to the church for the baptism. Tatjana, et al, The monther did not go to church then because she was not 'purified/cleansed' from childbirth, and could not go into the church until she was. This usually occurred 6 weeks after the baby's birth, when her body returned to 'normal'.... sort of a thing left over from before christianity with the same thinking that the monthlies made a woman 'unclean'.... Interesting, isn't it! My aunt, who had her children in the late '30's said that this was active thinking even then. Anettka

We, too, are Catholic. My grandparents were the only ones from their side to come to America and my grandmother had 6 children. I know that my mom was named by her Godmother, Kuma, who was named Katherine like she named my mother. My mom didn't go with that tradition and named me because she liked the name. My Grandmother used to get upset when my mother cooked American food as she thought that the Croatian and Hungarian foods were the only good foods. Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joy Durrett" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Baptism > Not in our Croatian family my parents named their children. And when my > mom was born her grandparents were not around. They were in Croatia and my > grandmother had no contact with them because the were in Yugoslavia and my > grandmother was in the United States. > > Also our family is Catholic so all children were Baptized in the Catholic > Church after they were born. > > Joy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerome Buza" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:07 AM > Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Baptism > > >> Don't know if this is a Croatian tradition or not, but we were told to >> get them baptized very young as you shouldn't take them anywhere until >> they were baptized. Also, they had to wear a bonnet whenever they were >> outside. My children were all baptized at two weeks of age. My mom said >> that the Godmother's usually named the child. >> Margaret >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Reuter, Patty" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 8:07 AM >> Subject: [CROATIA-L] Baptism >> >> >>> My baby sister who was thought unable to have children is due in >>> December. I wanted to do something different for her showers and baptism >>> than we have done for the other nieces and nephews. Are there any >>> Croatian traditions for showers or baptisms that any of you are aware >>> of? >>> (Other than don't let them look in the mirror before they are baptised, >>> or they will lose their soul. My grandma Davich believed firmly in >>> this). Thanks in advance for any help you can give. >>> >>> Patty Reuter >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan >>> service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working >>> around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 5/9/2005 >>> >>> >> > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.7 - Release Date: 5/9/2005 > >

Margaret, the early baptism was done because of high infant mortality. There was no vaccination and those childhood diseases were often deadly. In addition there was thyphoid, malaria and name it. As the Catholic church teaches the person should have been baptized before dying. There was no custom of baby shower before WW2. Currently many American customs are practiced as f.i. Halloween parties. They still visit their dead at the cemeteries on All Souls' Day but they also have parties. I would think that with the high risk of childbirth complications (or rather no help possible, should they happen) in those days people would refrain from celebrations ( f.i. baby shower) before the actual happy arrival occurs. It seems the aunts would instead get busy knitting and making other preparations for the baby's comfort. Maybe sewing coverlets for the crib. For some reason (I do not know why), the mother was not supposed to go to the church for the baptism. The baby was carried by his or her godfather or godmother (for the girls). To be chosen as a godfather or godmother was great honor. The baby given your name, was another. Prior to the arrival the whole family enjoyed suggesting names, but the baby's parents decided. As you can see the customs had more to do with the times than with any ethnic tradition. Until not too long ago women giving birth were in great danger, almost unconceivable now. Tatjana