Tatjana, Yes I know but in the records for late 1700s and early 1800 that is the way it was spelled in some records. I assume it should have been a j but the priest who might have been Austrian wrote it as a y. So looking at old records I would look for a y or a j. Bill

Hi Patty, I have an ancestor with the name Benyak on most records but I have found it Benjak on two records and on one record it was spelled Benxiak with the strange x. I guess it was just the way the priest wrote it in the record the way he heard it. Try substituting a y or a j for the xi which is probably the way the name is written in most documents. The y and j have the same i sound in Croatian. In other words the name is probably Samarya or Samarja which sound the same. Bill Kane

Hello, I ran across the last name Samarxia while doing some geneology on my grandfather's side. If the letter is an "x", it is a very strange looking "x". Has anyone ever heard of this last name? I couldn't find it in the Croatian phone book. This was from Sv. Juraj in Lika if that makes a difference. Thanks ahead of time for all of your help. Patty ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

Hello Robert, The surname has been so corrupted through the ages; it's a wonder I have him going back to his marriage date of 1795! The original? name ends with 'sch.' The son also has ending 'sch.' Next, his son is born with the 'sch' ... but, the second son is born Horelics, another born Hodo, another born Hodolics, another born Hodolits! I have seen it also spelled, Hotelics, Hotalics. In 1873, born in Albertfalu across the Danube from the Batschka, it is finally 'its' and the ending changes again to 'tz' in America. What a merry chase I have been on ... if it hadn't been for Frank's unending help; I would have no hair left on my head. :( I was told Croatian, German and Hungarian were spoken by my great-grandfather. Thank you for your reply! Kind regards, Sandra In a message dated 5/19/2005 5:03:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Hello Sandra, > > Perhaps the spelling has been Americanized? Searching Ellis Is, using > sounds like (many) at Stephen Morse web page finds some possible spellings but not > Hoditschka > > Hodotischka > Hatiszka > Hodoszka > Hoditsch > Hudacska > Hudiczki > > http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/EIDB/ellis.html > > Robert Jerin > >

The term for bone houses is Ossuary or sometimes you see the Latin Ossuarium. The cemeteries were usually in the parish church yards and not very big because they were in the villages. Large separate cemeteries were not considered and therefore they soon ran out of space. The bones were removed and another person buried in that spot. Many a parish has a bone house where the bones are stored. I have seen some in which the persons bones are separated with one pile for skulls, one for arm bones, and one for leg bones. etc. So you ancestor might be scattered all over the room. An interesting one to visit is at the Catholic Church cemetery in Hallstadt Austria considered by some to be the oldest continually peopled town in Europe. Here, a separate stone building houses the bones which are separated as mentioned above. In some places the bones are kept in a special room in the church basement. Bill Kane

RE Patty : the stones were removed (forgot to ask about the remains) to the Wall of the cemetery and remain there today. I am sure in Croatia that they do something similar to the rest of Europe....About every generation/25years when a plot is needed for a family member (based on owner of plot), the remains are disinterred, and the grave reused. The remains usually consist of only bones. Those are 'stored' in what I call a bone house (there is a name for such a building), usually on the cemetery gounds, and the stones are reused for whatever purpose they can find, and not necessarily saved. This is sort of like in the US and the idea of term graves. But since we have more land, and fewer generations accomodated, we sell plots and don't go more than two 'deep', with no disinterment of prior occupants. Anettka

Tony In which American state did your surnames settle ? The surnames Zugaj bearers seem to have settled in PA. Villages of Topusko, Ponikvari, and Gredani/Gredjani are located 33-36 miles south of Zagreb, Croatia. The Croatian telephone directory lists 1 surname Zugaj under Topusko. American Ship manifests are full of misspelled and mistranscribed surname spellings. There was room for misunderstood names and just plain transliteration errors. The main cause of name distortion was the inprecision in trying to represent spoken sounds (in various foreign languages) into written formats. For example, in Hungarian, German, and Slavic languages the letter j is pron. y. (H) Jó = yoh (Cr) Jugoslavija = Yugoslavia (G) Ja = yah Good luck ! Buona fortuna ! (Ital) Bonne chance ! (Fre) Buena suerte ! (Spa) Boa sorte ! (Por) Viel Glück ! (Ger) Minden jót ! (Hun) Dobra srec'a ! (Cro) Veliko srec^e ! (Slo) Velá s^tátia ! (Sk) Hodne^ s^te^stí ! (Cz) Powodzenia ! (Pol) >< e J| a |o y c || e x a ! (Cyrillic) zh i l a yu o s p e h a (Rus) v Frank Kurcina

Dave, I will write you about why I left Catholic church sometime this week in private. Thank you, Dawn

On this map you will find Gredjani (population 456) and if you zoom to level 7 Ponikvari (population 423) http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?formtype=address&searchtype=address&addto history=&country=HR&location=4y8dvacnsIszmBVm4ONfmQwrVzPok67yLKhoYu62kXjgkYKhs xlF8Bgu6oy1CJk0ICXHGAttoho%3d Another map with Gredani and Ponikvari: http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/map.dll/image?l=4&x=2458791&y=5015571&cx=2458791& cy=5015571&w=640&h=410 Tatjana

Tony Shtelseeker is still the best way to find towns and villages. Both of the ones you gave will be found by using Shtetlseeker http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm And since you know the approximate location you can zoom in on the excellent map of Croatia and find them at: http://navigator.vip.hr/webmga/default.asp? Robert tony zugay <[email protected]> wrote: All, Can some one give me the website that has the detail Croatia maps. I'm specifically looking for the locations of the villages/towns of Ponikvari and Gredjani. Both should be near the town of Topusko. I'm not sure they still exist as I found these towns referenced in some 19th century documents. Also, my father came from Croatia in 1910 and spelled his last name ZugaJ with a diacritic sign over the Z. We children changed the spelling to ZugaY so our non-Croatian speaking teachers could pronounce it. That was a loss as many of them still had problems with the name. Looking over old records that I got from the LDS in Salt Lake City I found that in 1856 my great grandfather's marriage record spells the name Zugai with no diacritic sign and his father's Baptismal record in 1809 spells the name Zugay with no diacritic sign on the "Z". Here's my question; what transpired during these time that could have altered the spellings? If my father were alive today i think it would be interesting to let him know the kids had it right all the time. Thanks, Tony Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

No one thought to ask. When my husband and I go, we will have to try and speak to someone to see where they are. The original graves are in Karlobag and Krasno. Thank you Patty -----Original Message----- From: E. Sharp [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CROATIA-L] Graves After a certain period they do reuse the gravesites. On my ancestors graves, the stones were removed (forgot to ask about the remains) to the Wall of the cemetery and remain there today. I love these stones as they have pictures on them and I took a picture of each and every one. Did you ask where the old stones were removed to? Mine are on the island of Cres. Elaine ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

My sisters recently returned from Croatia, and while they were taking pictures of family graves, they noticed that most graves appear to be less than 30 years old. This was true for both of the graveyards they visited. Does the old custom of moving the bodies to a mausoleum after a certain amount of time still apply? The church was built in 1744, so you would think that there would be some older graves. This just seemed odd to me. Thanks for any in put you may have! Patty ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________

When you go, good place to ask is at a local church. The cemetery we went to did not have an office but we were lucky to have a cousin and a local lady who were most helpful and took us to inquire at the church for more information. Elaine

After a certain period they do reuse the gravesites. On my ancestors graves, the stones were removed (forgot to ask about the remains) to the Wall of the cemetery and remain there today. I love these stones as they have pictures on them and I took a picture of each and every one. Did you ask where the old stones were removed to? Mine are on the island of Cres. Elaine

All, Can some one give me the website that has the detail Croatia maps. I'm specifically looking for the locations of the villages/towns of Ponikvari and Gredjani. Both should be near the town of Topusko. I'm not sure they still exist as I found these towns referenced in some 19th century documents. Also, my father came from Croatia in 1910 and spelled his last name ZugaJ with a diacritic sign over the Z. We children changed the spelling to ZugaY so our non-Croatian speaking teachers could pronounce it. That was a loss as many of them still had problems with the name. Looking over old records that I got from the LDS in Salt Lake City I found that in 1856 my great grandfather's marriage record spells the name Zugai with no diacritic sign and his father's Baptismal record in 1809 spells the name Zugay with no diacritic sign on the "Z". Here's my question; what transpired during these time that could have altered the spellings? If my father were alive today i think it would be interesting to let him know the kids had it right all the time. Thanks, Tony

Hello Sandra, Perhaps the spelling has been Americanized? Searching Ellis Is, using sounds like (many) at Stephen Morse web page finds some possible spellings but not Hoditschka Hodotischka Hatiszka Hodoszka Hoditsch Hudacska Hudiczki http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/EIDB/ellis.html Robert Jerin [email protected] wrote: Thank you Frank, for the very interesting and informative sites! I was quite surprised to find that some of the royal family had ancestry in America! Although my maternal lineage goes back to the Mayflower and England; I do not believe there is a drop of royal blood in my body. :) My challenge now is to hunt for the Panyit, Panyi, Pani, Pany, Panny branch of the family. Hoping you can be of some help with this question ... what nationality is the name Hodotischka, Adalbert? Any and all help is most appreciated! Sandra ... (remember, the vrana?) In a message dated 5/16/2005 6:52:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Re: [CROATIA-L] Habsburg Baptism in Zagreb > > The Imperial and Royal Family of Austria-Hungary > House Habsburg-Lothringen > http://www.geocities.com/henrivanoene/royalaustria.html > > Wedding Archduchess Francesca and Archduke Karl of Habsburg > http://www.royal-magazin.de/austria/habsburg-schmuck.htm > > Some ancestry of Baroness Francesca Thyssen-Bornemisza > http://members.aol.com/eurostamm/thyssen.html > > > Frank K > Interested in visting Croatia? Click on the link below to find out about a wonderful tour of Croatia! http://www.kollander-travel.com/

Oops! The name is spelled Hoditschka ... sorry. Sandra

As promised, here is this year's info on the Sacramento Croatian Festival-- Saturday June 11-Sunday June 12. Go to www.http://www.cacc.com Have fun! Elaine

Thank you Frank, for the very interesting and informative sites! I was quite surprised to find that some of the royal family had ancestry in America! Although my maternal lineage goes back to the Mayflower and England; I do not believe there is a drop of royal blood in my body. :) My challenge now is to hunt for the Panyit, Panyi, Pani, Pany, Panny branch of the family. Hoping you can be of some help with this question ... what nationality is the name Hodotischka, Adalbert? Any and all help is most appreciated! Sandra ... (remember, the vrana?) In a message dated 5/16/2005 6:52:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Re: [CROATIA-L] Habsburg Baptism in Zagreb > > The Imperial and Royal Family of Austria-Hungary > House Habsburg-Lothringen > http://www.geocities.com/henrivanoene/royalaustria.html > > Wedding Archduchess Francesca and Archduke Karl of Habsburg > http://www.royal-magazin.de/austria/habsburg-schmuck.htm > > Some ancestry of Baroness Francesca Thyssen-Bornemisza > http://members.aol.com/eurostamm/thyssen.html > > > Frank K >

Robert, Is there a lodge for Mpls/St. Paul area? Patty Reuter ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit www.messagelabs.com. ________________________________________________________________________