In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over 3000 Creeks to take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to show this kindness. Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in Oklahoma - Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was shed. The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit in the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, GA second in command. Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees in recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian tourism development bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late 20th century in order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who now belief these things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has virtually taken over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few non-governmental jobs are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or Polish when you go in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent on quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine what will happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow their own food or make crafts to sell to tourists. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

Richard, As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted to prove that a local, ego driven "historian" was reqriting history of teh area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line it is hard to believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here trying to follow their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are being mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy local politicians for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. Steve At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. > >If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over >3000 Creeks to >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to show >this kindness. > >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in Oklahoma >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was >shed. > >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit in >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, >GA second in >command. > >Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and >Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. > >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees in >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian >tourism development >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late >20th century in >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This >concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who >now belief these >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has >virtually taken >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few >non-governmental jobs >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or >Polish when you go >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent on >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine >what will >happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow >their own food >or make crafts to sell to tourists. > >Richard T. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM

Here where I live, we have some early maps of all the places where the different bands of Salish-speaking people lived before 1900. Since the west is so "young", our history doesn't start much before Lewis & Clark made their journey to the sea. Considering Oconee County, SC, and that area, where many Indian families still live, is it possible to map the movements of the bands through history? Can we start "at the beginning" of written information and show where the towns/villages/settlements/camps were up until, even, today? .....or recently (1900)? Can we do this for any other places with which researchers on this mailing list are familiar? Some researchers in Virginia have developed detailed time lines for the Siouan-speaking bands of the area in order to help people locate the source of the stories of the Indian blood in their families. One early map shows the Muscocees or Creeks on the Atlantic Coast just south of the Savannah River and neighboring the Yamasee Indians to the north. Between the Savannah and the Cape Fear, were the Cheraws on the coast and the Catawba to the west; with the Cherokee further west behind the Catawba. (A Map of the Sites of the Cheraws and Catawbas, with surrounding tribes, taken from Map in Vol. I, Transactions of American Ethonological Society). Kathie

Kathy, The head of the Oconee County Arts & Historical Commission is a pseudo historian who has framed the background on NA's in this county in a way that does not agree with the SC State Archives or the SC Museum of History. I think that will mean trying to trace locations through my county will be a joke. The maps, from before the Revolutionary War show the name Oconee (Akonee) all over the place so he claims that is a Cherokee word. It is a Hitichi word and is on all those maps because Muskogees were in this area before the European settlers forced the Cherokee south. I had a long hard battle with this and lost because in this area, church fellowship trumps historic fact every time. BTW, If they have taken over my favorite restaurant in Cherokee, they will have to answer to me. Richard, I do not remember the name, but it is on your left coming from here, just before 441 turns left through the old center of town. S At 08:17 PM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >Here where I live, we have some early maps of all the places where >the different bands of Salish-speaking people lived before >1900. Since the west is so "young", our history doesn't start much >before Lewis & Clark made their journey to the sea. > >Considering Oconee County, SC, and that area, where many Indian >families still live, is it possible to map the movements of the >bands through history? Can we start "at the beginning" of written >information and show where the towns/villages/settlements/camps were >up until, even, today? .....or recently (1900)? > >Can we do this for any other places with which researchers on this >mailing list are familiar? > >Some researchers in Virginia have developed detailed time lines for >the Siouan-speaking bands of the area in order to help people locate >the source of the stories of the Indian blood in their families. > >One early map shows the Muscocees or Creeks on the Atlantic Coast >just south of the Savannah River and neighboring the Yamasee Indians >to the north. Between the Savannah and the Cape Fear, were the >Cheraws on the coast and the Catawba to the west; with the Cherokee >further west behind the Catawba. (A Map of the Sites of the Cheraws >and Catawbas, with surrounding tribes, taken from Map in Vol. I, >Transactions of American Ethonological Society). > >Kathie > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release Date: >8/14/2008 6:03 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM

Richard, I am constantly amazed at your insight. I imagine living closer to NC reservations you have more resources to learn/study than some of who are removed. TEll us about the Polish and Russian influence. How did that happen? Casinos have become a "Mixed blessing". Excuse the "Blessing" as my word choice, I could not think of a better term. While providing monetary source, it has create a co-dependency as you mention and a lost of the old ways. It is happening all over the country. What I have noticed is that people then have MORE TIME to sit around and be bored and get into trouble (as well). I do not see the natives in my region who live on the reservation improving their homes with the money. I do see them driving really nice big rigs, buying goods they can not take care of (example are my horses). they could take caer of their things if they wanted too but some spend too much money on alcohol. I do not mean to sound prejudice but we all know it is a huge problem among our brothers/sisters. I have warned my own flesh and blood (Children) to stay away from it, we have a family weakness for it. Admitting that, recognizing it, and then reacting knowing is what we all must do. Remaining or becoming self sufficienct is going to become more and more necessasry during the trying depression. If people would take their bounty (if they have gardens) and plan now, dehydrate wtih the sun your produce, put it up for winter you will have a leg up. Don't throw away the extra zuchinni, dry zuchinni works well in sauces, soups, ect. I add it to stews, to pastas, many items it adds alot. Same with tomatoes, onion and more. You don't have to be an expert canner, you can dyhydrate many items. I think cucumbers are one item you can not dyhydrate but they make tasty pickles! <G> or salsas. Enough of the soapbox. I am anxious to hear about the russians & polish in NC, how they got there, how it all happened. thanks, Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: <TalliyaS[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:54 AM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail of Tears > In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called > Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. > > If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations > were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over 3000 > Creeks to > take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two > generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to > show > this kindness. > > Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in > Oklahoma > - Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was > shed. > > The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit > in > the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in > command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, GA > second in > command. > > Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and > Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. > > I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we > Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees > in > recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian tourism > development > bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late 20th > century in > order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This > concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who now belief > these > things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has > virtually taken > over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few non-governmental > jobs > are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one > could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or Polish when > you go > in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent > on > quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine what > will > happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically > reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow their own > food > or make crafts to sell to tourists. > > Richard T. > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >