Richard, As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns I'm stunned by your comments. I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if the leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their business or close. Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and if not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with cherokee women. The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, some tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and party until the money is gone. I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly seasonal. So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before the Casino arrived in town. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail of Tears > To: [email protected] > Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM > Richard, > > As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted > to prove > that a local, ego driven "historian" was > reqriting history of teh > area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line > it is hard to > believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here > trying to follow > their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. > > Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are > being > mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy > local politicians > for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. > > It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. > > Steve > > > At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: > > >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family > memory of a so-called > >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional > comment. > > > >If one read's the history books, you learn that > Creek-Cherokee relations > >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had > allowed over > >3000 Creeks to > >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was > their land anyway two > >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders > did not have to show > >this kindness. > > > >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon > arrival in Oklahoma > >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to > clash and blood was > >shed. > > > >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought > together as one unit in > >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of > Pine Log, GA in > >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of > Carrolton, > >GA second in > >command. > > > >Since that time, it has become quite common for > Oklahoma Creeks and > >Cherokees to both be friends and families to > intermarry. > > > >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the > serious problems we > >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern > Band of Cherokees in > >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) > Caucasian > >tourism development > >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in > the late > >20th century in > >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to > tourists. This > >concocted history was taught to a generation of > students, who > >now belief these > >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian > Mafia has > >virtually taken > >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very > few > >non-governmental jobs > >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are > the most menial one > >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak > Russian or > >Polish when you go > >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there > have become dependent on > >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. > I can't imagine > >what will > >happen when the projected recession or depression this > winter drastically > >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no > longer grow > >their own food > >or make crafts to sell to tourists. > > > >Richard T. > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release > Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

LEon, thanks for the tidbit. Now maybe we can clear the confusion. I have asked Richard to elaborate as I am interested in what is going on in NC. I may never be able to stand side by side with my brothers adn sisters and be accepted Cherokee or Creek, but I have no doubts I am one. My family was still on the reservatoin land well after 1810 and that I know for a fact. Cousins are still there today, but we have lost the relationship. All we know is we were related to Will West LONG, well known historian. I believe my great ggg grandmother was a WEST married to a LONG, her name Delilah or Delila is all I have. We have pictures of the WESTs and believe it to be her parents. From there on it gets very foggy as the men chose for their wifes' to hide their ancestry. They were not allowed to show in town as they did not speak English, only Cherokee. LIes were made up they spoke Dutch only and they were told not to speak in front of strangers. They left NC for upper GA, living in Ivy LOg, a well known mixed Cherokee community. There, my line may have taken up residence with a Cherokee man as a 2nd wife. HIs family well documented but no mention in the Dawes about a 2nd family. This is the story on almost every line marrying into my family, all simliar mixed families, hiding and avoiding being recorded as Cherokee. Does anyone know what "Big Creek" might mean in Cherokee? that is the name our ancestor used abt 1810. He was on the E Cherokee rolls but would not give his family the info. they needed to establish it. He died without telling his children his real indian name so they could apply. They did apply, were rejected as not enough proof. With that info. I am sure they would have been on the Dawes. I have looked up Big Creek and believe it's similiar to Equa Ni la dv yi Long would be GA Nv Hi Dv I can not find those on rolls, but not sure how they are pronounced and how an English speaker would write them. Anyone who has ideas? while we are talking about language, well I am at least. Does anyone have any idea if the Cherokee has trouble prouncing certain syllables? I had trouble with "L" and "TH" "S" as did my children. thanks, Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail ofTears > Richard, > As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee > reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives > and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns > I'm stunned by your comments. > I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, > the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if the > leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their > business or close. > Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and if > not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a > Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. > Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of > Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with > cherokee women. > The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, some > tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and > party until the money is gone. > I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food > stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly > seasonal. > So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before the > Casino arrived in town. > > --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail >> of Tears >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM >> Richard, >> >> As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted >> to prove >> that a local, ego driven "historian" was >> reqriting history of teh >> area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line >> it is hard to >> believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here >> trying to follow >> their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. >> >> Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are >> being >> mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy >> local politicians >> for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. >> >> It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. >> >> Steve >> >> >> At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >> >> >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family >> memory of a so-called >> >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional >> comment. >> > >> >If one read's the history books, you learn that >> Creek-Cherokee relations >> >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had >> allowed over >> >3000 Creeks to >> >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was >> their land anyway two >> >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders >> did not have to show >> >this kindness. >> > >> >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon >> arrival in Oklahoma >> >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to >> clash and blood was >> >shed. >> > >> >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought >> together as one unit in >> >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of >> Pine Log, GA in >> >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of >> Carrolton, >> >GA second in >> >command. >> > >> >Since that time, it has become quite common for >> Oklahoma Creeks and >> >Cherokees to both be friends and families to >> intermarry. >> > >> >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the >> serious problems we >> >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern >> Band of Cherokees in >> >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) >> Caucasian >> >tourism development >> >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in >> the late >> >20th century in >> >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to >> tourists. This >> >concocted history was taught to a generation of >> students, who >> >now belief these >> >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian >> Mafia has >> >virtually taken >> >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very >> few >> >non-governmental jobs >> >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are >> the most menial one >> >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak >> Russian or >> >Polish when you go >> >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there >> have become dependent on >> >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. >> I can't imagine >> >what will >> >happen when the projected recession or depression this >> winter drastically >> >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no >> longer grow >> >their own food >> >or make crafts to sell to tourists. >> > >> >Richard T. >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release >> Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Debbie, I guess you have looked at the family lines in Emmett Starr's History of the Cherokee? I can't locate my copy at the moment, but feel sure there are West family there. Talking with my aunt yesterday or day before, she said my cuzn (Martin) family connected to West (Cherokees). One of his grandfather (West) , I think my aunt said was the U.S. Marshall at Ft. Smith ,during judge Parker's work. You will find the most cherokee family information in Starr's book. Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Woolf" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the TrailofTears > LEon, > > thanks for the tidbit. Now maybe we can clear the confusion. I have > asked > Richard to elaborate as I am interested in what is going on in NC. > > I may never be able to stand side by side with my brothers adn sisters and > be accepted Cherokee or Creek, but I have no doubts I am one. My family > was > still on the reservatoin land well after 1810 and that I know for a fact. > Cousins are still there today, but we have lost the relationship. All we > know is we were related to Will West LONG, well known historian. I > believe > my great ggg grandmother was a WEST married to a LONG, her name Delilah or > Delila is all I have. We have pictures of the WESTs and believe it to be > her parents. From there on it gets very foggy as the men chose for their > wifes' to hide their ancestry. They were not allowed to show in town as > they > did not speak English, only Cherokee. LIes were made up they spoke Dutch > only and they were told not to speak in front of strangers. They left NC > for upper GA, living in Ivy LOg, a well known mixed Cherokee community. > There, my line may have taken up residence with a Cherokee man as a 2nd > wife. HIs family well documented but no mention in the Dawes about a 2nd > family. This is the story on almost every line marrying into my family, > all simliar mixed families, hiding and avoiding being recorded as > Cherokee. > > Does anyone know what "Big Creek" might mean in Cherokee? > that is the name our ancestor used abt 1810. He was on the E Cherokee > rolls but would not give his family the info. they needed to establish it. > He died without telling his children his real indian name so they could > apply. They did apply, were rejected as not enough proof. With that > info. > I am sure they would have been on the Dawes. I have looked up Big Creek > and > believe it's similiar to Equa Ni la dv yi > Long would be GA Nv Hi Dv > > I can not find those on rolls, but not sure how they are pronounced and > how > an English speaker would write them. > Anyone who has ideas? > > while we are talking about language, well I am at least. Does anyone have > any idea if the Cherokee has trouble prouncing certain syllables? I had > trouble with "L" and "TH" "S" as did my children. > > thanks, Debbie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail > ofTears > > >> Richard, >> As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee >> reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives >> and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns >> I'm stunned by your comments. >> I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, >> the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if >> the >> leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their >> business or close. >> Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and >> if >> not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a >> Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. >> Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of >> Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with >> cherokee women. >> The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, >> some >> tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and >> party until the money is gone. >> I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food >> stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly >> seasonal. >> So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before >> the >> Casino arrived in town. >> >> --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail >>> of Tears >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM >>> Richard, >>> >>> As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted >>> to prove >>> that a local, ego driven "historian" was >>> reqriting history of teh >>> area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line >>> it is hard to >>> believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here >>> trying to follow >>> their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. >>> >>> Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are >>> being >>> mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy >>> local politicians >>> for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. >>> >>> It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >>> >>> >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family >>> memory of a so-called >>> >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional >>> comment. >>> > >>> >If one read's the history books, you learn that >>> Creek-Cherokee relations >>> >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had >>> allowed over >>> >3000 Creeks to >>> >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was >>> their land anyway two >>> >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders >>> did not have to show >>> >this kindness. >>> > >>> >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon >>> arrival in Oklahoma >>> >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to >>> clash and blood was >>> >shed. >>> > >>> >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought >>> together as one unit in >>> >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of >>> Pine Log, GA in >>> >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of >>> Carrolton, >>> >GA second in >>> >command. >>> > >>> >Since that time, it has become quite common for >>> Oklahoma Creeks and >>> >Cherokees to both be friends and families to >>> intermarry. >>> > >>> >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the >>> serious problems we >>> >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern >>> Band of Cherokees in >>> >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) >>> Caucasian >>> >tourism development >>> >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in >>> the late >>> >20th century in >>> >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to >>> tourists. This >>> >concocted history was taught to a generation of >>> students, who >>> >now belief these >>> >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian >>> Mafia has >>> >virtually taken >>> >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very >>> few >>> >non-governmental jobs >>> >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are >>> the most menial one >>> >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak >>> Russian or >>> >Polish when you go >>> >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there >>> have become dependent on >>> >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. >>> I can't imagine >>> >what will >>> >happen when the projected recession or depression this >>> winter drastically >>> >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no >>> longer grow >>> >their own food >>> >or make crafts to sell to tourists. >>> > >>> >Richard T. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this outgoing message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release >>> Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

I do not know the situation on the Cherokee Rez but I have seen foreigners/outsiders have way too much control over some Rez's. Mr. I. G. did so with the Kickapoo Rez in Eagle Pass, Texas. Allegedly he and his family took over most of the Rez's business affairs and then ripped them off. Fortunately, the Feds came to the Kickapoos aid (imagine that!) and recently the Feds had a successful prosecution against the G. family. Google and you can get the whole scoop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail ofTears > Richard, > As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee > reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives > and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns > I'm stunned by your comments. > I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, > the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if the > leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their > business or close. > Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and if > not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a > Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. > Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of > Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with > cherokee women. > The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, some > tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and > party until the money is gone. > I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food > stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly > seasonal. > So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before the > Casino arrived in town. > > --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail >> of Tears >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM >> Richard, >> >> As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted >> to prove >> that a local, ego driven "historian" was >> reqriting history of teh >> area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line >> it is hard to >> believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here >> trying to follow >> their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. >> >> Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are >> being >> mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy >> local politicians >> for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. >> >> It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. >> >> Steve >> >> >> At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >> >> >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family >> memory of a so-called >> >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional >> comment. >> > >> >If one read's the history books, you learn that >> Creek-Cherokee relations >> >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had >> allowed over >> >3000 Creeks to >> >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was >> their land anyway two >> >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders >> did not have to show >> >this kindness. >> > >> >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon >> arrival in Oklahoma >> >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to >> clash and blood was >> >shed. >> > >> >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought >> together as one unit in >> >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of >> Pine Log, GA in >> >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of >> Carrolton, >> >GA second in >> >command. >> > >> >Since that time, it has become quite common for >> Oklahoma Creeks and >> >Cherokees to both be friends and families to >> intermarry. >> > >> >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the >> serious problems we >> >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern >> Band of Cherokees in >> >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) >> Caucasian >> >tourism development >> >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in >> the late >> >20th century in >> >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to >> tourists. This >> >concocted history was taught to a generation of >> students, who >> >now belief these >> >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian >> Mafia has >> >virtually taken >> >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very >> few >> >non-governmental jobs >> >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are >> the most menial one >> >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak >> Russian or >> >Polish when you go >> >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there >> have become dependent on >> >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. >> I can't imagine >> >what will >> >happen when the projected recession or depression this >> winter drastically >> >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no >> longer grow >> >their own food >> >or make crafts to sell to tourists. >> > >> >Richard T. >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release >> Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1614 - Release Date: 8/15/2008 > 5:29 PM > > >