I did not realize there is now such a difference in Oklahoma Muskogee and Eastern! Eastern: town: tvlofv ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> > Paul, > > Italwa meant "cross roads" in Archaic Muskogee. > > That makes perfect sense for Etowah Mounds because it was located at the > intersection of several major trails and shoals, which blocked any further > movement inland by large trade canoes. > > Italwa now means "town" in Oklahoma Muskogee. > > As I told Michelle Schohn, what has really given me fits in translating > early Muskogean words is that neighboring provinces might have initially > spoke > different branches of the Muskogean Language Family, but over time shared > words and modified words to be more like their neighbors. There were a > LOT of > dialects in the 1500s and 1600s. > > Richard T. > > > > **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for > FanHouse Fantasy Football today. > (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paul, Italwa meant "cross roads" in Archaic Muskogee. That makes perfect sense for Etowah Mounds because it was located at the intersection of several major trails and shoals, which blocked any further movement inland by large trade canoes. Italwa now means "town" in Oklahoma Muskogee. As I told Michelle Schohn, what has really given me fits in translating early Muskogean words is that neighboring provinces might have initially spoke different branches of the Muskogean Language Family, but over time shared words and modified words to be more like their neighbors. There were a LOT of dialects in the 1500s and 1600s. Richard T. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

> Yes, there are some words with B in them in the Muskogee spoken in > Oklahoma. OK. Now I see we are on the same page. Paul

> I knew, unlike the learned professors, that there is > no B in Muskogee! Richard, Wait now. In written Muskokee, the "p" sounds like the English "b". Actually, somewhere in between. I've always wondered why the missionaries even wrote the "p" if it sounded like a "b". > However, Itaba is the Alabama word for a border crossing. The Alabama's do > have the B sound - Here is also food for thought. The Muskokee word for dogwood is "vtvphv" (pronounced sort of like "adab-ha", keep in mind that the "p's" sound like "b's". As you know, the "v" is pronounced somewhere between the English "a" or "u", in "but". Also, there is a word for a "sofkee spoon". I can't find the exact spelling, but in my "phoenic Creek" its something like "vtapa" (pronounced "adaba") However, none of this refutes your theory on Etowah. Paul Hornsby

> > Would Weatherford have been considered to be Tuckabatchee, or do we > know? As I remember, Sehoy was Tuskegee. Paul Hornsby

Yes, there are some words with B in them in the Muskogee spoken in Oklahoma. The original Mvskoke word has a P instead. The reason is that over time the Oklahoma Creeks have absorbed influences from English, and I guess, the Alabama's who became Creeks in Oklahoma. Oklahoma Creeks also wear cowboy hats at ceremonies today, whereas their ancestors in the East wore turbans. These are the effects of cultural assimilation. Some examples ... The South Carolina Creek town of Hilapee (an original member of the Creek Confederacy) was written down by the Spanish as being either Ilape, Ilapi or Ilapa. When some members of the town migrated to Georgia and then to Alabama, we see Caucasian records showing the town as Hilabi or Hillabee . When Protestant missionaries began creating Muskogee dictionaries, they perhaps used the English pronunciation and spelling of the towns name. Over time, Oklahoma Creeks eventually spelled and pronounced the town's name the English way - since at the mission schools, this is how their teachers spelled the word. Osabaw Island on the coast of Georgia was originally Osapv (crow in Hitchiti) or Osawv (crow in Archaic Muskogee) The English colonists change the word to Osabaw. Learned academicians in Georgia during the late 20th century decided that the word meant "place where the sacred black drink plant grows." That is the official governmental definition today. Of course, the word Osabaw has absolutely no similarity to the Creek word for the black drink - "assi." The same change from P to B is true for Tuckabachee. It's original Mvskoke spelling was something like Tokepace. Richard T. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

Guess you folks are curious as to why I would be a fountain of knowledge about Iberian linguistics. There is a reason and it directly relates to the study of our heritage. I first became aware of the numerous languages and dialects in Spain, while backpacking through Europe after working in Sweden. When you backpack, you really get to know the people. The Spanish were the most hospitable people in Europe at that time. Several times, Spanish families in rural areas invited me to stay in their homes for free, because they said that I seemed different than most Americans. Guess I still am - given the non-stop harassment I have received from the "powers that be" since the year 2000. At any rate, the Australian mates I traveled with in Europe assumed that I would be totally lost in the province of Catalan. However, since I knew Spanish, Swedish and French, I understood most everything the Catalan people said. An Aussie gal with a college minor in Spanish, understood very little. She would ask the people to speak in their second tongue, Castilian, in order to understand them. When I started doing thoroughly studying the chronicles of the early Spanish explorers, I noticed wide variations in the way that the 16th century writers spelled Muskogean words that the explorers recorded. How could I translate these words with a Muskogee, Alabama or Koasati dictionary if I didn't know what the original word really was? Then I came across a glossary website from Spain that compared words in the 15 languages of Spain. The same word could mean the same, sound the same, but be spelled differently. In other words (if you excuse the pun) each Spanish language not only varied in grammar and vocabulary, but had different alphabets. An alphabetic letter in one Iberian language might have a different sound than the same letter in another language. So even though Spanish chroniclers might have prepared reports to the king in the official language of the Court of Seville, Castilian, they often spelled foreign words in the alphabet of their native tongue from one of the other provinces of Spain. How this is applied to research into our own heritage ... Here is one example how this knowledge helps us understand the real history of the Creeks. All the books put out by UGA, UT and UNC professors state that de Soto visited Etowah Mounds, because his chroniclers mentioned the expedition stayed in a town called Itaba for several days. I thought this was not necessarily true, since I knew, unlike the learned professors, that there is no B in Muskogee! Also, in 1542 the Great Mound at Etalwa (our word for the town) was the LARGEST, OCCUPIED MAN-MADE STRUCTURE IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. It is bigger than most all the Aztec and Toltec pyramids, even when they were still occupied. The Spanish made no mention of any large structure at Etalwa. There is no W in any Iberian language. The various languages of Spain would have spelled Italwa as either Italhua, Italgua, Italjoa or Italxoa. However, Itaba is the Alabama word for a border crossing. The Alabama's do have the B sound - obviously, it is part of their name. So, we know that de Soto's Kusaw (Upper Creek) guides intentionally steered the conquistadors away from their sacred shrine of Italwa. Itaba would have been a smaller town on the edge of the Kusa province that originally, or still, spoke the Alabama language. The de Soto chroniclers also mentioned that the river at Itaba was flooded, and they had to wait several days for the waters to subside in order to cross and continue westward along river into what is Alabama. The main trail along the Etowah River is on the Etowah Mounds side. The Etowah River is SOUTH of Etowah Mounds. So this statement makes no sense if the Spanish were at Etowah Mounds. However, the main trail to Alabama (still known as the Alabama Road) does cross westward over the Oostanaula River near Downtown Rome, GA - where the Oostanaula and the Etowah join to form the Coosa River. The Great Alabama Trail then continues along the Coosa River all the way through Alabama till it becomes the Alabama River. Well, I guess what this analysis really says is that to understand our Creek cultural heritage, we must also thoroughly understand the other peoples who came in contact with the ancestors of the Creeks. The cultural biases of the invaders and immigrants affected how they described our ancestors. Richard T. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

That's it ! (I knew that---had a C and a t and an l---hadn't had my coffee yet---ha). Awesome, Richard T ! g

Castillian, with heavy "th" pronounciations? I think, though, that they were talking about People, not Language.

It's "True Women" (not Woman) and can be purchased on Amazon.com. g

Thanks, Paul. Would Weatherford have been considered to be Tuckabatchee, or do we know? gmw

Thank you so much, Richard T. You laid it out masterfully so that we can understand. I'll need to study ! I did leave a message with the Public Information person on their site. I was saddened to learn that they don't have enough income. I couldn't open up the Natural Resources area of the info. We appreciate your generous help on this list ! gmw

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: peeweejack Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/808.1.1.2.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I live in Opelika, anything I can do to help either of you? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: amikepappas Surnames: Bird, Martin, Hall Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/808.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: If you notice, there were no Spaniards on any of the early census. The only 'color' of people that the census takers could mark on the census was 'black', 'white' or 'mulatto'. The census takers could not tell the diference between the Spanish and the Creeks, so if asked, the Creeks claimed that they were Spanish. The Creeks who passed themselves off as Spanish were olive-dark complexion. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

There are fifteen languages in the Iberian Peninsula. Some are quite different than Castilian - which we call Spanish. Around Barcelona, they speak Catalan. The word is derived from Gotaland. The inhabitants of that part of Spain originally came from the Province of Gotaland in Sweden. Many of the verbs the Catalonians use are very similar to Swedish verbs, but the Swedish core is mixed in with French and Latin type words. Oh, Gotaland is where English gets its word, Goths. In the Anglo-Saxon poem, Beowulf, the Gotalandians are called Geats. Richard T. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

Having been around some, I believe there are more than two forms of Spanish, not including Mexican, from what I personally encountered. For example in Barcelona, Spain there's one form of Spanish that is not called Spanish. I asked the locals, and they said it was NOT like most know Spanish to be. (I claim exemption from HAVING to remember the name of the language as was not interested it taking up limited available space.) But, people in other places of Spain speak genuine Spanish....European Spanish for all I know. But not in Barcelona, Spain. I'm not well versed in languages as I barely speak Southern Amerglish. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Sokol" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Mulattoes in Alabama, were they Creek Indians ? > Spaniards are not white? > > How about Portuguese, French, German, Russian, Turks. Where do you > draw the line. > > Are you maybe talking about native Central Americans?? There are two > very distinct Spanish languages: American and European. > > However, Spanish is those people who are native of Spain. > > Have I missed something??? > > S > > > > At 09:06 PM 7/23/2008, you wrote: > >>This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. >> >>Author: amikepappas >>Surnames: Bird, Martin, Hall >>Classification: queries >> >>Message Board URL: >> >>http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/808.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx >> >>Message Board Post: >> >>If you notice, there were no Spaniards on any of the early census. >>The only 'color' of people that the census takers could mark on the >>census was 'black', 'white' or 'mulatto'. The census takers could >>not tell the diference between the Spanish and the Creeks, so if >>asked, the Creeks claimed that they were Spanish. The Creeks who >>passed themselves off as Spanish were olive-dark complexion. >> >>Important Note: >>The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If >>you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board >>URL link above and respond on the board. >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG. >>Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: >>7/22/2008 4:05 PM > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: 7/22/2008 > 4:05 PM > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The name of the movie is "True Women." In the movie, Angeline Jolet plays the 1/4 Creek grand daughter of Creek Agent, Benjamin Hawkins. Several Creek actors in the early part of the movie give a very accurate portrayal of the costumes and customs of the Friendly Creeks of Georgia. I was shocked that the producers used real Creeks to portray Creeks. Richard T. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020)

Spaniards are not white? How about Portuguese, French, German, Russian, Turks. Where do you draw the line. Are you maybe talking about native Central Americans?? There are two very distinct Spanish languages: American and European. However, Spanish is those people who are native of Spain. Have I missed something??? S At 09:06 PM 7/23/2008, you wrote: >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > >Author: amikepappas >Surnames: Bird, Martin, Hall >Classification: queries > >Message Board URL: > >http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/808.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx > >Message Board Post: > >If you notice, there were no Spaniards on any of the early census. >The only 'color' of people that the census takers could mark on the >census was 'black', 'white' or 'mulatto'. The census takers could >not tell the diference between the Spanish and the Creeks, so if >asked, the Creeks claimed that they were Spanish. The Creeks who >passed themselves off as Spanish were olive-dark complexion. > >Important Note: >The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If >you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board >URL link above and respond on the board. > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: >7/22/2008 4:05 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.4/1567 - Release Date: 7/22/2008 4:05 PM

Hi Guys! Somehow I missed Richard's response to Glenn as to the movie - I would so appreciate it if you could give the name of the movie you are referencing again Richard. Thank you very much. Kim ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Coushetta & Texas immigrants > Wow, Richard T ! > > I DID see that movie last year, but I just thought that Hollywood was > doing it's thing. It's great to know that it is factual and can be > believed in addition to being enjoyed ! Thanks ! > > Were the Koasati hostile or friendly--Red or White Sticks? Thanks ! > Yes, it is rotten that the friendly Indians didn't receive what they > were due/promised. > > I wanted to know from you about the Alabama-Coushatta Tribe here in > Texas (Alibamu and Koasati) because I had heard that they came in the > early 1800's and then later I heard that it was the 1700's. There are > only about 500 now on the Reservation, which is the oldest in Texas. > > Thanks ! > > g > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1569 - Release Date: 7/23/2008 > 1:31 PM > > >

> Were the Koasati hostile or friendly--Red or White Sticks? Thanks ! The Alabama/ Koasati towns along the Alabama River in Alabama, were some of the most war-like during the Creek War of 1813 & 1814. Paul Hornsby