Whew ! I've kidded you a bit, but I want you to understand that I'm in awe of your knowledge and your generousity in sharing it with us. I simply wanted to know if the Creek people on this List want to be known today as, say, a __________ Creek from the ___________ Tribe or Clan of the _____________ Nation or Confederacy I was trying to learn the proper or appropriate terminology, so I wouldn't be rubbing anyone the wrong way. Seems I've done that, and I apologize. It's the same thing I was trying to determine from Glenn about the Mexican-Americans in the San Antonio area---what they like to be called today.

I just got back from spending a few days on the Navajo Reservation and I can tell you that their food is fantastic! Barb songmaker2 wrote: > > >> I'm interested in cooking some traditional Creek foods. Guess I will >> > Google > >> Creek Food and see what pops up. >> > > It would not have been 'possom (Sukv Hvtke). Creeks believed in the > "you are what you eat" theory. Thought you would become slow by eating > it. > Paul Hornsby > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

One of the most fascinating deductive reasonings I have come with in the past year involves the similarities between the government of the Maya city of Chichen Itza in the northern Yucatan Peninsula, and the subsequent organization of Creek ancestral towns during our "Golden Era." There is substantial evidence that Ocmulgee was founded by non-elite refugees from the Maya city of Waka in Guatemala - or at least the children of those refugees. Waka was mostly abandoned by 880 AD after the city had been razed and its entire elite executed by an enemy city. Ocmulgee was founded about 20 years later. However, Ocmulgee seems to have been more of a massive regional trade conurbation, where many cultures blended, not the capital of a new state. Chichen Itza had a government very different than most Maya cities. Its Great Sun was not a hereditary king, but a symbolic head of state and administrator elected by a legislative body composed entirely of the elite. Therefore, its government was almost identical to that of the Old Roman Republic prior to Emperor Augustus. Commoners evidently had little or no say in the management of the city state. Slaves certainly had no rights at all. Stellae from neighboring cities in Yucatan tell of a massive rebellion by the commoners or slaves around Chichen Itza in response to droughts and famines. After the rebellion, few people lived in Chichen Itza and it was no longer a powerful influence on the region. Archaeologists long thought the virtual abandonment of Chichen Itza occurred around 1200 AD. Recently, more accurate radiocarbon dating has placed the period of the rebellion and abandonment to be in the late 900s AD. This date is important, because around 1000 AD, many, many new towns suddenly appeared in the Creek Motherland - the founding of famous places such as Ochesee and Etalwa are definitely from that period. I have a theory that waves of illiterate Maya commoners arrived in the Southeast immediately after the abandonment of Chichen Itza. They set themselves up as the elite among Muskogeans, who were disunited by centuries of clan vengeance warfare, and tried to recreate the world they had known in the Yucatan, but also incorporated the clan system as a democratic counterbalance to the abuses of the elite in the Maya world. In fact, Creek tradition remembers a time when there was much misery because of constant vengeance warfare between clans. Sun Man and Sun Woman appeared on the scene and brought peace, civilization and advanced agriculture to the people. The descendants of Sun Man and Sun Woman became the new elite. The seeds of this theory go back to many moons ago when I was 20 years old and sitting in awe in the office of the world famous archaeologist, Dr. Roman Pina-Chan. Pina-Chan was director of the Museo Nacional de Anthropologia in Mexico City, and the coordinator of my fellowship. Pina-Chan was also a Maya, and had a humility and open-mindedness about him that is often missing in contemporary anthropologists. I had just given him a Smithsonian book on the Indians of the Southeast. After first glancing at the photos of the artifacts from Etowah Mounds, he canceled his next appointment and spent another hour with me. His most poignant observation occurred after seeing the photos of the famous statues from Etowah Mounds. "Ricardo, why did your Indios make statues of slaves? The turbans they wear were the mark of a slave, farmer or laborer among the Maya. They still are. Were your people once slaves of the Mayas?" Then, fast forward to the year, 2007. I am watching the movie, "Apocalypto" and see the slaves and laborers of the fictional Maya city all wearing white turbans. "Oh my God! Dr. Pina-Chan was right!" Of course, this theory flies in the face of everything that Este-hatka archaeologists are taught these days. They are already shunning my books and me for merely mentioning it. It will take a lot more research to back up the theory. First, I must dig out of the financial disaster caused by the Fernbank Museum when I almost lost my house and car in April. However, every known archaeological fact I read, is backing up the theory. At least, I have something to keep me busy for several years! Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Prior to the European Invasion and subsequent Disease Holocaust, the Muskogean regions of the Southeast were divided up into provinces of varying size and sophistication. Some areas, particularly those dominated by the Kusv were on the verge of becoming true nations. The Kusv Province based at what is now Carters Lake, GA stretched for about 400 miles across - From Knoxville to Birmingham. The Kusv Province in South Carolina, was almost as large. Archaeologists like to call these polities chiefdoms - a term Euro-centric anthropologists developed to describe African cultures. However, a mikko was not the same thing as a hereditary, all-powerful African chief. The mikko was elected by an elected legislative body. He or she could also be deposed by the legislative body. The mikko was more of an administrator, chief priest and symbolic head of state. During war time, other leaders took control of the government. Obviously, the Spanish never understood this, and often mistook war leaders for Great Suns or Hese-mikko's. Within the provinces might be several ethnic groups, speaking several languages or dialects. The leaders of smaller villages were called Orataws and they were appointed by the central governments. There was a parallel organization of people known as the clan. The clans probably were ancient and were originally separate tribes or bands. The clans were the means by which the commoners were represented in the government. The also tended to unite a region. Men had to marry women from another clan, which often meant relocating to another village or town. Thus, over time a province would be united by blood ties, rather than divided by inbred extended families. Does that answer your question? **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Wow! This is very interesting....thanks for answering. A lot can be learned about any people from their ways of eating and drinking, place of sleeping and rest, and security factors......just like Maslow has taught in his Hierarchy of Needs. Works for hunting wild pray, and seems to tie into finding ancestors, wouldn't you say? TT ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:24 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Height of Pre-European Muskogeans > Perhaps I should explain something, that few people seem to understand. > Many pre-European contact Muskogean towns were communal. Evidently, the > Oconee's > were not communal, since they primarily lived on isolated farmsteads. > The > closest thing we have in our era to a Muskogean town of 1500 is as > Israeli > kibutz or a Cuban communal farm. When people caught fish, the fish were > either > given only to the elite, or equally distributed among everyone in an > extended family, clan or town. Orataw (those who make things happen) > distributed > the food. Such prestige foods as venison and bear meat, might only go to > warriors, with the scraps and less desirable pieces being distributed to > others. > > The height varied with altitude and latitude. The Spanish did not say > much > about the peoples in Florida, so perhaps they were about the same height > as > the Spanish and Mexican Indians. However, de Soto's men were astounded by > the > size of the ancestors of the Creek men living in Middle Georgia, South > Carolina and the Southern Highlands. They averaged a foot taller than the > Spanish. Elite leaders might reach 7 feet tall. Mikko Taski Loosa > (Black Warrior) > of the Alabama's was seven feet tall. Was he actually a man from one of > the > taller ethnic groups in Africa? Good question. There was a Creek mikko > in > Georgia during the Revolution, who was 7 feet tall. The Spanish > mentioned that > Muskogean women in the Coastal Plain were much shorter than the men. The > women farther north and higher up tended to be taller. > > Skeletons have been found in other parts of the South which appeared to be > of men 7 feet tall. George Washington found an Indian cemetery filled > with 7 > feet tall skeletons when he was supervising the construction of Fort > Loudon in > Winchester, VA. It could be that the original elite of the Creek's > ancestors were actually another ethnic group, which came to dominate the > indigenous > peoples. The Choctaws have a legend of wars in the ancient past between > the > Choctaws and a race of giants, who invaded from the north. > > The difference in height between geographical regions and gender may also > be > reflective of a difference in diet - the elite and warriors may have > enjoyed > high protein diets, while the commoners, especially women, got very little > meat. Also, intestinal parasites, may have been much more severe in > coastal > areas where it rarely went below freezing in the winter. > > There are a lot of unanswered questions in this area. > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Perhaps I should explain something, that few people seem to understand. Many pre-European contact Muskogean towns were communal. Evidently, the Oconee's were not communal, since they primarily lived on isolated farmsteads. The closest thing we have in our era to a Muskogean town of 1500 is as Israeli kibutz or a Cuban communal farm. When people caught fish, the fish were either given only to the elite, or equally distributed among everyone in an extended family, clan or town. Orataw (those who make things happen) distributed the food. Such prestige foods as venison and bear meat, might only go to warriors, with the scraps and less desirable pieces being distributed to others. The height varied with altitude and latitude. The Spanish did not say much about the peoples in Florida, so perhaps they were about the same height as the Spanish and Mexican Indians. However, de Soto's men were astounded by the size of the ancestors of the Creek men living in Middle Georgia, South Carolina and the Southern Highlands. They averaged a foot taller than the Spanish. Elite leaders might reach 7 feet tall. Mikko Taski Loosa (Black Warrior) of the Alabama's was seven feet tall. Was he actually a man from one of the taller ethnic groups in Africa? Good question. There was a Creek mikko in Georgia during the Revolution, who was 7 feet tall. The Spanish mentioned that Muskogean women in the Coastal Plain were much shorter than the men. The women farther north and higher up tended to be taller. Skeletons have been found in other parts of the South which appeared to be of men 7 feet tall. George Washington found an Indian cemetery filled with 7 feet tall skeletons when he was supervising the construction of Fort Loudon in Winchester, VA. It could be that the original elite of the Creek's ancestors were actually another ethnic group, which came to dominate the indigenous peoples. The Choctaws have a legend of wars in the ancient past between the Choctaws and a race of giants, who invaded from the north. The difference in height between geographical regions and gender may also be reflective of a difference in diet - the elite and warriors may have enjoyed high protein diets, while the commoners, especially women, got very little meat. Also, intestinal parasites, may have been much more severe in coastal areas where it rarely went below freezing in the winter. There are a lot of unanswered questions in this area. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Hi, Richard T, Were these differentiations in status a "by birth" tradition, or was one able to "earn" a place in the Elite group? I'm interested in definitions of the following, as regards the Creeks: Is it Nation, rather than Tribe? (and I guess a Confederacy would be made up of Nations?) Is it Clan, rather than Band? Thank you. I like to call people what they like to be called. gmw

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: JanetFoster80 Surnames: Spikes Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/3017/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I recently came across the following entry concerning my GGgrandfather, Matthew Spikes. Matthew's mother, Martha Spikes, is recorded in the 1830 Washington County US Census with 4 sons. Here is the entry: "Muster Roll of Captain Stephen Richard's company of the MOUNTED FRIENDLY INDIANS, 1st Brigade of the FLORIDA MILITIA, commanded by Gen'l Leigh Reid, ordered into service of the United States by Gov. R. K. Call from the 15th day of October 1837 to the 23rd of April 1838. company enrolled at Walkers' Town, Jackson County, FLORIDA. At Camp Relief, on the 23rd April 1838, Stephen Richards, capt., commander of the company, by signature certified the muster roll to be accurate, just, and true. At the same place and date, D. H. Vinton, Inspector & Mustering Officer, certified by his signature that the muster roll was accurate. Mathew served from 15 October 1837 to 26th November 1837 and from 8 march to 23 April 1838 in the FRIENDLY INDIANS." I have not confirmed this statement and would like to know resources that could provide confirmation. Does anyone know if all members of the friendly indian troops were, in fact, native american? Or did white settlers also serve in the friendly indian troops? There has been a family story that Matthew had native american heritage, however, this is the first indication that I have found that supports the story. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Richard, what was the usual height of our ancestors back at the time you are talking about.....and on into the 1800's? And, how much difference in height were the Elite compared to the Commoners? TT ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:27 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Archaeological evidence of Muskogean diets beforefirearms > Contrast Between Diets of the Elite and the Commoners in Muskogean Towns > > It is quite significant that the largest indigenous town known in the > Lower > South, was its first true town - Ocmulgee (Oka-mole-ke). The sale trading > conurbation of Ocmulgee was laid out like the recently abandoned Maya > salt-trading center of Waka in northern Guatemala. In fact, Ocmulgee and > Waka were > built on identical physiographic settings and at exactly the same > distance from > the ocean. However, Waka was in the tropics, whereas Ocmulgee was next > to > extensive wetlands, but in a warm, temperate location that did not have > near > the food producing capacity as Waka. Successively larger generations of > residents at Ocmulgee probably eradicated most of the animal protein > sources within > close walking distance. Muskogean towns became digressively smaller as > time > went on. My Native ancestors, the Okonee, did not live in towns or even > large villages. Farmsteads were dispersed throughout the province at a > low > population density, so that commoners would have more success at obtaining > protein. Regional, fortified governmental-religious centers provided safe > locations for the dispersed population to both socialize and avoid enemy > attacks. > > The Commoners > > Studies of the refuse in Muskogean houses prior to the availability of > firearms suggest that for most people, anything that walked or crawled or > swam was > eligible for the cooking pot. However, the commoners in larger towns > were > primarily vegetarians. Because they had never really developed animal > husbandry to the level of horticulture, the commoners had a chronic > nutritional > deficiency of iron, magnesium, protein, and sometimes fats. One finds > bones of > all sorts of critters around commoners houses - small birds, eggs, fish, > turtles, frogs, snails, lizards, rabbits, groundhogs, possums, squirrels, > you > name it. It is quite likely that whatever happened to be caught was > thrown into > something akin to brunswick stew. However, most meals consisted of corn > in > some form, beans in some form, and members of the squash family in some > form. > These staples were supplemented by ancient cultivated crops such as > indigenous fruits & nuts, sunflowers, Jerusalem artichoke, Muskogee sweet > potatoes > and amaranth. Many Creek dishes involved deep frying (source of Southern > fried > cooking) with hickory nut oil, because their diet was so deficient in > animal fats. Rendered ground hog and possum fat was considered a > nutritional > supplement and medicine. > > The Elite > > There is substantial architectural evidence that the Muskogean elite ate > communally and that their food was prepared in communal kitchens. This was > certainly the case with their contemporaries among the Anasazi of the > Southwest > and in Mexico. The communal kitchens and dining halls looked like > bungalows. > There are several drawings of these special structures in my books. > Another > big difference is that one finds many more bones of large, meaty animals > in > elite sections of towns ... in particular deer, bear and turkey bones. > In > some cultures, the commoners were even forbidden to eat some fish. > Sturgeon > steaks were considered to be the food of the highest elite only. As a > direct > result of their much higher level of protein consumption, the elite were > taller > and healthier. > > After Firearms Arrived > > Once the Creeks had access to firearms and a ready market for deer and > beer > skins, their diets changed radically. Deer meat became much more common > features on the menu for everyone. The old mound-building elite ceased > to > exist. Some folks had higher status than others, but there was no > longer a > significant difference in the diets of the people. However, once the > deer and > bears had been wiped out, the Creeks were forced to learn European-type > animal > husbandry in order to survive. > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Contrast Between Diets of the Elite and the Commoners in Muskogean Towns It is quite significant that the largest indigenous town known in the Lower South, was its first true town - Ocmulgee (Oka-mole-ke). The sale trading conurbation of Ocmulgee was laid out like the recently abandoned Maya salt-trading center of Waka in northern Guatemala. In fact, Ocmulgee and Waka were built on identical physiographic settings and at exactly the same distance from the ocean. However, Waka was in the tropics, whereas Ocmulgee was next to extensive wetlands, but in a warm, temperate location that did not have near the food producing capacity as Waka. Successively larger generations of residents at Ocmulgee probably eradicated most of the animal protein sources within close walking distance. Muskogean towns became digressively smaller as time went on. My Native ancestors, the Okonee, did not live in towns or even large villages. Farmsteads were dispersed throughout the province at a low population density, so that commoners would have more success at obtaining protein. Regional, fortified governmental-religious centers provided safe locations for the dispersed population to both socialize and avoid enemy attacks. The Commoners Studies of the refuse in Muskogean houses prior to the availability of firearms suggest that for most people, anything that walked or crawled or swam was eligible for the cooking pot. However, the commoners in larger towns were primarily vegetarians. Because they had never really developed animal husbandry to the level of horticulture, the commoners had a chronic nutritional deficiency of iron, magnesium, protein, and sometimes fats. One finds bones of all sorts of critters around commoners houses - small birds, eggs, fish, turtles, frogs, snails, lizards, rabbits, groundhogs, possums, squirrels, you name it. It is quite likely that whatever happened to be caught was thrown into something akin to brunswick stew. However, most meals consisted of corn in some form, beans in some form, and members of the squash family in some form. These staples were supplemented by ancient cultivated crops such as indigenous fruits & nuts, sunflowers, Jerusalem artichoke, Muskogee sweet potatoes and amaranth. Many Creek dishes involved deep frying (source of Southern fried cooking) with hickory nut oil, because their diet was so deficient in animal fats. Rendered ground hog and possum fat was considered a nutritional supplement and medicine. The Elite There is substantial architectural evidence that the Muskogean elite ate communally and that their food was prepared in communal kitchens. This was certainly the case with their contemporaries among the Anasazi of the Southwest and in Mexico. The communal kitchens and dining halls looked like bungalows. There are several drawings of these special structures in my books. Another big difference is that one finds many more bones of large, meaty animals in elite sections of towns ... in particular deer, bear and turkey bones. In some cultures, the commoners were even forbidden to eat some fish. Sturgeon steaks were considered to be the food of the highest elite only. As a direct result of their much higher level of protein consumption, the elite were taller and healthier. After Firearms Arrived Once the Creeks had access to firearms and a ready market for deer and beer skins, their diets changed radically. Deer meat became much more common features on the menu for everyone. The old mound-building elite ceased to exist. Some folks had higher status than others, but there was no longer a significant difference in the diets of the people. However, once the deer and bears had been wiped out, the Creeks were forced to learn European-type animal husbandry in order to survive. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Thank you, Richard T, For this very nice information. I also just thought that there is not much mentioned at any time, of the fish they caught and ate. I suppose they used baskets and bows and arrows to obtain the fish. Just my opinion, no facts at all. Thanks, Sam In the 1940's, in Arkansas, I hunted rabbits and squirrels, with my Dad to put meat on the table, cause he lost money every Friday night at Poker. He had one great hand one night, and won. He gave the biggest looser, three Friday Nights to win his money back. Well, he never won the prize back and Dad quit the poker game. What did he win? A cemetery plot, consisting of 8 graves. He and Mom are buried there at this time. The looser and his wife are buried in the 8 plots behind Mom and Dad. My parents graves are in the first plot, on the upper left side. The looser and his wife are buried in the plots behind, Mom and Dad, and on the upper right side of the plots. This is funny. Thanks, Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Archaeological evidence of Muskogean diets beforefirearms > Contrast Between Diets of the Elite and the Commoners in Muskogean Towns > > It is quite significant that the largest indigenous town known in the > Lower > South, was its first true town - Ocmulgee (Oka-mole-ke). The sale trading > conurbation of Ocmulgee was laid out like the recently abandoned Maya > salt-trading center of Waka in northern Guatemala. In fact, Ocmulgee and > Waka were > built on identical physiographic settings and at exactly the same > distance from > the ocean. However, Waka was in the tropics, whereas Ocmulgee was next > to > extensive wetlands, but in a warm, temperate location that did not have > near > the food producing capacity as Waka. Successively larger generations of > residents at Ocmulgee probably eradicated most of the animal protein > sources within > close walking distance. Muskogean towns became digressively smaller as > time > went on. My Native ancestors, the Okonee, did not live in towns or even > large villages. Farmsteads were dispersed throughout the province at a > low > population density, so that commoners would have more success at obtaining > protein. Regional, fortified governmental-religious centers provided safe > locations for the dispersed population to both socialize and avoid enemy > attacks. > > The Commoners > > Studies of the refuse in Muskogean houses prior to the availability of > firearms suggest that for most people, anything that walked or crawled or > swam was > eligible for the cooking pot. However, the commoners in larger towns > were > primarily vegetarians. Because they had never really developed animal > husbandry to the level of horticulture, the commoners had a chronic > nutritional > deficiency of iron, magnesium, protein, and sometimes fats. One finds > bones of > all sorts of critters around commoners houses - small birds, eggs, fish, > turtles, frogs, snails, lizards, rabbits, groundhogs, possums, squirrels, > you > name it. It is quite likely that whatever happened to be caught was > thrown into > something akin to brunswick stew. However, most meals consisted of corn > in > some form, beans in some form, and members of the squash family in some > form. > These staples were supplemented by ancient cultivated crops such as > indigenous fruits & nuts, sunflowers, Jerusalem artichoke, Muskogee sweet > potatoes > and amaranth. Many Creek dishes involved deep frying (source of Southern > fried > cooking) with hickory nut oil, because their diet was so deficient in > animal fats. Rendered ground hog and possum fat was considered a > nutritional > supplement and medicine. > > The Elite > > There is substantial architectural evidence that the Muskogean elite ate > communally and that their food was prepared in communal kitchens. This was > certainly the case with their contemporaries among the Anasazi of the > Southwest > and in Mexico. The communal kitchens and dining halls looked like > bungalows. > There are several drawings of these special structures in my books. > Another > big difference is that one finds many more bones of large, meaty animals > in > elite sections of towns ... in particular deer, bear and turkey bones. > In > some cultures, the commoners were even forbidden to eat some fish. > Sturgeon > steaks were considered to be the food of the highest elite only. As a > direct > result of their much higher level of protein consumption, the elite were > taller > and healthier. > > After Firearms Arrived > > Once the Creeks had access to firearms and a ready market for deer and > beer > skins, their diets changed radically. Deer meat became much more common > features on the menu for everyone. The old mound-building elite ceased > to > exist. Some folks had higher status than others, but there was no > longer a > significant difference in the diets of the people. However, once the > deer and > bears had been wiped out, the Creeks were forced to learn European-type > animal > husbandry in order to survive. > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> I'm interested in cooking some traditional Creek foods. Guess I will Google > Creek Food and see what pops up. It would not have been 'possom (Sukv Hvtke). Creeks believed in the "you are what you eat" theory. Thought you would become slow by eating it. Paul Hornsby

Richard B, I believe the Cherokee's in Ark. and Missouri, are referred to as the Lost Cherokee Tribe. A friend has his card, Lost Cherokee Tribe. (Arkansas and Missouri) Thanks, Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for ancestors always checkoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas > Richard T., when cooking the Opossom, I guess my ggrandmother forgot to > "parboil" and went straight to the oven. Grease/oil level was half up in > the baking pan, but I think they used to dip their homemade bread in that. > That was one of the few foods I tried and did not acquire a taste for. > (too > much oil..). How do you get those roadkills to eat the buttermilk/etc??? > > In locations for natives,.. remember that about 1817 was a treaty for the > Cherokees (referred to as Old Settlers) to self emigrate to their > Reservation in north central Arkansas. (they stayed there until about > 1830) > when the reservation was dissolved in another treaty and the Old Settlers > went to Ind Territory. 1817 look for "passport" allowing Inds (reds...:o) > to travel. > > Sam Huston , the Texican, was very hooked to the Cherokees, he was known > as > "The Raven" & book title same name , .. in his biography you see much. > (one of my family names chief (John Jolly) , adopted him, but others claim > not the same person. Neither of us can "proove" yes/no , but I have some > paper trial for that!! > > Also, along with your good information, you did not mention 1811 > earthquake > SE Missouri "bootheel" , Cherokee living there with chief "Bowl" , fled to > TX , they considered the ground shake a bad medicine message or something. > Quiz.. : Feds made 40 treaties with the Cherokee,.. how many of the > treaty > conditions were kept by this govt ?? (tune in this theatre next week for > the answer..)!! > > Richard B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:22 PM > Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for ancestors always check > outArkansas, Louisiana and Texas > > >> The mention about the new museum In Fort Smith, AK reminded of something >> I >> discovered in my research in the past. I found that thousands and >> thousands >> of Creeks and Cherokees went west prior to the Trail of Tears in the >> late >> 1830s. Very few went initially to Oklahoma because it was claimed by >> other >> tribes. Cherokees and Upper Creeks often went to Arkansas, sometimes to >> Missouri. >> Lower Creeks, Alabamas, and Koasati's went to Louisiana, Texas and >> Mexico - >> perhaps also to the southern tip of Arkansas. Some Cherokees went to >> Texas >> and then to Mexico. Most Cherokees were chased out of Texas after it >> became a >> Republic. However, a considerable number of Alabamas, Koasati's and >> Lower >> Creeks were allowed to stay in Texas because they had fought along side >> the >> Texans against the Mexicans. >> >> As I mentioned last week, also look for Friendly "Georgia" Creeks in >> Texas. >> The Friendly (Hitchiti-speaking) Creeks were promised that they could >> keep >> their farms in Georgia and South Carolina, but many were either >> illegally >> dispossessed or felt insecure in an anti-Indian political environment. >> The >> Friendly Creeks carried with them a hybrid culture that was a mixture of >> the >> Mound-Builders and Scottish frontiersmen. Many also has aspirations of >> being >> planters or ranchers in Texas. Their descendants tended to blend in >> with >> the >> Texans since Creeks are not that different in appearance from Mexican >> Mestizos. >> >> Also, when planning to serve possum for prominent guests or wedding >> parties, >> be sure and feed the possum cornbread and buttermilk for a couple of >> weeks >> before dressing them. Parboiling the possum for awhile will get rid of >> the >> excess fat created by the cornbread and buttermilk. >> >> Richard T. >> >> >> >> **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your >> budget? >> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >> ) >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Or drive the roads, for Road Kill. Before they bloat. Tks, Sam Ummmm Paleface no eatum possum. ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Where the Creeks went in Texas > gmw, > Richard B. here,... about that "dead" possum, he/she was not really dead , > just "playing possum" , its something they do.. :o) . Sometimes they lay > "dead" in the open like this (on their back..) to attract vultures. When > the vultures come down (from circling..) , with the element of surprise > the > possom lunges at the vulture, catching it by the neck and then eats it. > They get much of their food this way,.."only an indian would know that". > > I'm sorry, but this message does not seem to have any redeeming value, > other > than cooking your own possom... I think you can now purchase it canned. > > Richard T. did not post this. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Where the Creeks went in Texas > > >> I'm sorry--I thought that the cornbread and buttermilk were causing some >> of the fat. >> >> Gotcha now----thanks. >> >> Once a possum came in our garage and ate gobs of bird food which the >> (dumb) owners had left out, in a plastic bag. The ole possum ate itself >> to death, and died lying on its back with all four legs pointing at the >> sky, stomach bulging. My dogs were running in a circle around Ole Pos, >> barking their heads off !! >> >> Didn't eat it. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Richard You can watch the remaining Seminole in Florida going crazy when they see a softshell turtle. Whites do not seem to understand yet, but the softshell makes a "to die for" stew. FYI, they are a breed, while soft shell crab are a stage in the life cycle. S At 07:42 PM 8/5/2008, you wrote: > >In a message dated 8/5/2008 6:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >[email protected] writes: > >Sorry for the diversion, but when I was growing up in Alabama, >possum, cornbread and buttermilk was considered a holiday >dish. Cornbread and buttermilk were straight forward. Preparation >of a possum was a skill that had to be passed down. > >Took a lot of stewing, but the taste was not too bad. > >S > > > > >Yes! That's right. People thought I was joshing them earlier this >afternoon, but I really was telling them an old tradition of the >Friendly Creeks! >To be honest, I really preferred my grandmothers Southern Fried >Savannah River >Turtle better. The turtles back then were up to a 100 pounds in size. Now >it is illegal to catch them. > >The foods we ate at my grandparent's house, were some of the few Creek >traditions that survived assimilation. Brunswick stew was cooked for >24 hours >before the reunion. Brunswick stew is virtually identical to the >stew that was >kept bubbling in the Topah Chiki or hospitality house in the old days. The >elders of our family did set the reunion to be at the Full >Moon closest to when >the roasting ears came ripe. That was obviously a remembrance of the Green >Corn Festival, but I never remember that name being used at our family >reunions. > > >NOW - don't get started on a Creek foods thread, because list mother will >get angry! However, I figured a little discussion wouldn't hurt. > > > > >**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? >Read reviews on AOL Autos. >(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >) > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1591 - Release Date: >8/4/2008 7:23 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1591 - Release Date: 8/4/2008 7:23 PM

I'm interested in cooking some traditional Creek foods. Guess I will Google Creek Food and see what pops up. Anyone have a good Creek dish, let me know what the recipe is...thanks. I know how to cook typical wild game, but no possum for me. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:42 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Old Creek Traditions > > In a message dated 8/5/2008 6:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Sorry for the diversion, but when I was growing up in Alabama, > possum, cornbread and buttermilk was considered a holiday > dish. Cornbread and buttermilk were straight forward. Preparation > of a possum was a skill that had to be passed down. > > Took a lot of stewing, but the taste was not too bad. > > S > > > > > Yes! That's right. People thought I was joshing them earlier this > afternoon, but I really was telling them an old tradition of the Friendly > Creeks! > To be honest, I really preferred my grandmothers Southern Fried Savannah > River > Turtle better. The turtles back then were up to a 100 pounds in size. > Now > it is illegal to catch them. > > The foods we ate at my grandparent's house, were some of the few Creek > traditions that survived assimilation. Brunswick stew was cooked for 24 > hours > before the reunion. Brunswick stew is virtually identical to the stew that > was > kept bubbling in the Topah Chiki or hospitality house in the old days. > The > elders of our family did set the reunion to be at the Full Moon closest > to when > the roasting ears came ripe. That was obviously a remembrance of the > Green > Corn Festival, but I never remember that name being used at our family > reunions. > > > NOW - don't get started on a Creek foods thread, because list mother will > get angry! However, I figured a little discussion wouldn't hurt. > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 8/5/2008 6:21:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Sorry for the diversion, but when I was growing up in Alabama, possum, cornbread and buttermilk was considered a holiday dish. Cornbread and buttermilk were straight forward. Preparation of a possum was a skill that had to be passed down. Took a lot of stewing, but the taste was not too bad. S Yes! That's right. People thought I was joshing them earlier this afternoon, but I really was telling them an old tradition of the Friendly Creeks! To be honest, I really preferred my grandmothers Southern Fried Savannah River Turtle better. The turtles back then were up to a 100 pounds in size. Now it is illegal to catch them. The foods we ate at my grandparent's house, were some of the few Creek traditions that survived assimilation. Brunswick stew was cooked for 24 hours before the reunion. Brunswick stew is virtually identical to the stew that was kept bubbling in the Topah Chiki or hospitality house in the old days. The elders of our family did set the reunion to be at the Full Moon closest to when the roasting ears came ripe. That was obviously a remembrance of the Green Corn Festival, but I never remember that name being used at our family reunions. NOW - don't get started on a Creek foods thread, because list mother will get angry! However, I figured a little discussion wouldn't hurt. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Sorry for the diversion, but when I was growing up in Alabama, possum, cornbread and buttermilk was considered a holiday dish. Cornbread and buttermilk were straight forward. Preparation of a possum was a skill that had to be passed down. Took a lot of stewing, but the taste was not too bad. S -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1591 - Release Date: 8/4/2008 7:23 PM

I believe Chief Bowl was the son of British William A. Bowles and his first wife that was Cherokee. ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for ancestors always checkoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas > Richard T., when cooking the Opossom, I guess my ggrandmother forgot to > "parboil" and went straight to the oven. Grease/oil level was half up in > the baking pan, but I think they used to dip their homemade bread in that. > That was one of the few foods I tried and did not acquire a taste for. > (too > much oil..). How do you get those roadkills to eat the buttermilk/etc??? > > In locations for natives,.. remember that about 1817 was a treaty for the > Cherokees (referred to as Old Settlers) to self emigrate to their > Reservation in north central Arkansas. (they stayed there until about > 1830) > when the reservation was dissolved in another treaty and the Old Settlers > went to Ind Territory. 1817 look for "passport" allowing Inds (reds...:o) > to travel. > > Sam Huston , the Texican, was very hooked to the Cherokees, he was known > as > "The Raven" & book title same name , .. in his biography you see much. > (one of my family names chief (John Jolly) , adopted him, but others claim > not the same person. Neither of us can "proove" yes/no , but I have some > paper trial for that!! > > Also, along with your good information, you did not mention 1811 > earthquake > SE Missouri "bootheel" , Cherokee living there with chief "Bowl" , fled to > TX , they considered the ground shake a bad medicine message or something. > Quiz.. : Feds made 40 treaties with the Cherokee,.. how many of the > treaty > conditions were kept by this govt ?? (tune in this theatre next week for > the answer..)!! > > Richard B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:22 PM > Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for ancestors always check > outArkansas, Louisiana and Texas > > >> The mention about the new museum In Fort Smith, AK reminded of something >> I >> discovered in my research in the past. I found that thousands and >> thousands >> of Creeks and Cherokees went west prior to the Trail of Tears in the >> late >> 1830s. Very few went initially to Oklahoma because it was claimed by >> other >> tribes. Cherokees and Upper Creeks often went to Arkansas, sometimes to >> Missouri. >> Lower Creeks, Alabamas, and Koasati's went to Louisiana, Texas and >> Mexico - >> perhaps also to the southern tip of Arkansas. Some Cherokees went to >> Texas >> and then to Mexico. Most Cherokees were chased out of Texas after it >> became a >> Republic. However, a considerable number of Alabamas, Koasati's and >> Lower >> Creeks were allowed to stay in Texas because they had fought along side >> the >> Texans against the Mexicans. >> >> As I mentioned last week, also look for Friendly "Georgia" Creeks in >> Texas. >> The Friendly (Hitchiti-speaking) Creeks were promised that they could >> keep >> their farms in Georgia and South Carolina, but many were either >> illegally >> dispossessed or felt insecure in an anti-Indian political environment. >> The >> Friendly Creeks carried with them a hybrid culture that was a mixture of >> the >> Mound-Builders and Scottish frontiersmen. Many also has aspirations of >> being >> planters or ranchers in Texas. Their descendants tended to blend in >> with >> the >> Texans since Creeks are not that different in appearance from Mexican >> Mestizos. >> >> Also, when planning to serve possum for prominent guests or wedding >> parties, >> be sure and feed the possum cornbread and buttermilk for a couple of >> weeks >> before dressing them. Parboiling the possum for awhile will get rid of >> the >> excess fat created by the cornbread and buttermilk. >> >> Richard T. >> >> >> >> **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your >> budget? >> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >> ) >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

well....dunno if it was playin' possum or not. I called Animal Control, and then forgot about it ! (I promise, though--it's belly was so blown up that it couldn't have rolled over to walk!) Sorry for the "no value" tale. There will be no more, as that's the only possum story I know, Richard Bee-Not-Tee. Peace, gmw