Richard, After a bad hurricane and flood in south Florida. My Grandfather ( Loren Robert's) while hunting discovered the skeletal remains of a large Indian man. He apparently had washed out of the grave (Shell-mound.) The location was in the Everglades, west, near the Humpback bridge...not far from Flamingo. Now headquarters for Everglades National Park. My Grandfather said the man was at least 7-8 feet tall... Granddaddy Robert's and a Seminole Indian named "Wilson Cypress" buried the Indian. It was a custom to bury the bodies sitting up, facing east, I was told. Seminole's in the Everglade hunted and trapped bear with my family. Seminole's were not tall like this man. We have pictures of them. My family traded gator hides, plumes, turtles, and meat, including smoked manatee with them from late 1800s. The only word I remember was (nic-a-noc-a -noc-ca) Indian word for deer.I wonder if this is correct ( ?) A gentleman was talking about the South Florida Indians. At the University of Florida a couple of years ago. He made the statement there were no Indians ever located in the "far south I wanted to tell him he was wrong but I figured they would all go down there and dig up the bones and disturb the mound, destroy it and the history too. Just like they did the Everglades....... Government took the Park land from the settlers in 1947........ They brought in strange plants called malaluka, (to dry up the River of Grass) and several non native plants that took over the Everglades. Government workers cut trails, built another road and built the headquarters in Flamingo . Settler's were burned out and the Federal Park took the land. " sounds familiar doesn't it"? Oil was discovered there in West Lake. A capped off well was there the last time I went down...... But they changed the road to bypass it We figured it was an Oil Reserve. I have the newspaper article that can prove it. There is an Oil well in Clewiston, pumps every day.... Not far from Homestead. and the Tamiami Trail. "Educated Idiots" my grandfather called them! . Department of the Interior caused the problems that are there now. They thought the water brought inland from floods would destroy the glades with all of the salt content. To my knowledge that is about the only place to find crocks and alligators in the United States living together. Bald Eagles and Black Florida Panther lived there: many endangered may be still there. My grandfather tried to tell them that once the water came in during flooding, it filled up the holes for gators to live in and fish could grow and survive until the following year. Birds, wild ducks,deer,bear and animals needed fresh water to survive The rock land there is full of holes and dirt fills the holes, it makes a good home for turtles,fish,gators and most wild life. They use the holes for water when it rains the holes store fresh water. The next flood would carry the minnows, small fish, snails back into Florida Bay. Grandfather and our family had lived there 50 years and tried never to kill only what we needed to eat. Robert's Prarie and Loren Robert's Park in Florida City Fl. are dedicated to him. Now it will cost "Billions of dollars" and can never be restored. Richard, have you ever visited Flamingo? Betty . **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Yes, I found the name there but how do I find out more info on that name, to be sure it is my ancestor and not another by that name? [email protected] wrote: > The names on the Dawes Roll can be accessed on the internet or through the > Library of Congress > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Though that said, there are Creeks today for whom Creek would be both their tribe and their ethnicity. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek It might be best to think of Creek as an ethnicity. Because my tribe is PeeDee. We are a Creek people, but we never called ourselves that. We have always been aware that we were related to other Creek peoples, but we were actually a member of the Greater Catawba Nation, a confederacy of Siouan and Creek peoples from North and South Carolina. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek Hello, Richard So, Okonee denotes your Clan (and general Location), and Eastern Creek is your Tribe, which is in the Muscogee Nation ? Thank you, gmw

It might be best to think of Creek as an ethnicity. Because my tribe is PeeDee. We are a Creek people, but we never called ourselves that. We have always been aware that we were related to other Creek peoples, but we were actually a member of the Greater Catawba Nation, a confederacy of Siouan and Creek peoples from North and South Carolina. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek Hello, Richard So, Okonee denotes your Clan (and general Location), and Eastern Creek is your Tribe, which is in the Muscogee Nation ? Thank you, gmw ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Edistos (the current tribe) is mixed Kusso and Natchez heritage, so they are also Muskogean. -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Faulk <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Pee Dee Creeks Mentioning South Carolina, are the Edistos of Muskogean lineage? If not, do you have any idea of the lineage? ? Thanks, Glenn --- On Wed, 8/6/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Pee Dee Creeks To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 11:38 AM Yes, Michelle is right. The Pee Dees are Creeks, even thought the State of South Carolina told them for a long time that they were Siouan. The Pee Dees probably started wanting to call themselves something other than Creek during the Red Stick War Period. A lot of Georgia Friendly Creeks were murdered just because they had the same tribal label as the Red Stick Faction in Alabama. Michael Jacobs, in Waycross, found an old report from a US Army officer that only four women out of 112 men, women and children survived an ambush by militia forces on the Georgia side of the Chattahoochee River as they were returning home from assisting the US Army in the Second Seminole War. They were ALLIES, yet were masscred. It's the old divide and conquer strategy used again. I feel sure that politicians in during the early 1800s encouraged animosity between the Muscogees and the Seminoles for the same reason. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Were you using the index of the Final Rolls? You need to be using the Final Rolls and if there is more information on that person when you click on the roll number it will take you to more family members. If a exta box comes up on the right side of the screen that means that packet has been put on line by Footnote and you can look at the information there and possibly tell. You can also purchase a monthly membership and download the info. Judy On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 1:17 PM, barbara keel <[email protected]>wrote: > Yes, I found the name there but how do I find out more info on that > name, to be sure it is my ancestor and not another by that name? > > > > [email protected] wrote: > > The names on the Dawes Roll can be accessed on the internet or through > the > > Library of Congress > > > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > > ( > http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017) > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have no idea as to its accuracy, but here is a brief account of the Calusa: http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/lessons/calusa/calusa1.htm On Aug 6, 2008, at 1:06 PM, songmaker2 wrote: > >> After a bad hurricane and flood in south Florida. My Grandfather >> ( Loren >> Robert's) while hunting discovered the skeletal remains of a large >> Indian > man. >> My Grandfather said the man was at least >> 7-8 feet tall... > > The Calusa people (pre-Seminole) of South Florida, were known to be > tall > people. > Paul Hornsby > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

We need those who know the Creek history of Southeast Alabama to participate with us in the quest to record the genealogy and history of the Creek Indians who lived in the Southeast Corner of Alabama. I read on the loop from knowledgeable folks, but we need to make that knowledge accessible to others. Hopefully this organization can help do that. This is an area of history that is sadly neglected in collections. For more information visit: http://www.southern-style.com/Southeast%20Alabama%20Heritage%20Association/About%20SEAHA%201.htm Sharman Burson Ramsey http://www.southern-style.com

Hello, Richard So, Okonee denotes your Clan (and general Location), and Eastern Creek is your Tribe, which is in the Muscogee Nation ? Thank you, gmw

The letter about the Poarch Creeks ticked my mind about a question I posed last month to the Muscogee (Creek) Nation's Justice Department. I am a descendant of one of the many Friendly Creek families in the Southeast, who received nominal reparations from the US Government during the 1930s. The funds were to compensate descendants of Friendly Creeks, who had their reserves illegally taken from them by state or local governments. Our reserves were originally granted for service to the United States during war time. They were essentially veteran's land grants, not Indian reservations, but much larger than the grants given to most Caucasian veterans. However, legally these reserves were absolutely identical in status to those reserves granted the ancestors of the Poarch Creeks - who are federally recognized. My question to the Creek official was this: Since the reparations were paid to Friendly Creeks on the basis that they were Creek Indians granted land by the Federal government, and that neither state nor local governments had the right to terminate Federal grants of lands to American Indians, was it possible that the descendants of these grantees were eligible for citizenship in the Muscogee (Creek) Nation? The answer is no. The current Muscogee (Creek) Constitution restricts citizenship to those persons who are direct descendants of persons listed on the Dawes Rolls. In an earlier telephone conversation, the court staff member mentioned that there were thousands of people in Oklahoma alone, who were true Creeks and descended from Creeks who took allotments in 1905. However, like my ancestor, who took an allotment, their ancestors feared being listed on the Dawes Roll. Therefore, they are not eligible for citizenship. Thus, if your family received an Eastern Creek reparation, and was not part of the group of families ancestral to the Poarch Creeks, at this time you are not legally considered a Creek Indian as far as the BIA is concerned - even if the US Dept. of Justice considered your family legitimately Creek in the 1930s or earlier. Theoretically, if all of us reparation descendants came together, we could petition for Federal recognition. However, there is a Catch 22 on this approach. One of the criteria used by the Bureau of Indian Affairs is that the petitioning tribe must have lived as an Indian community on the same tract of land dating back to the time of their initial recognition as Indians. Thus, if your family's land was stolen from you because they were Creeks, you can't legally be a federally recognized Creek now. The one type of Creeks in Georgia who have the strongest case for Federal recognition are the descendants of the Ware County (Waycross) Creeks. There is irrefutable evidence that this band of Creeks lived in the vicinity of the Okefenokee Swamp as a Native American community until it was purchased by the United States government in the 1930s and 1940s. I may have an ancestor in that group, but am not sure. Perhaps the descendants of the Okefenokee Creeks should first form a state recognized tribe in Waycross, and then petition for Federal recognition. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Dawes Rolls on accessgenealogy.com http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/rolls.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:02 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Dawes Roll The names on the Dawes Roll can be accessed on the internet or through the Library of Congress **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> How does one go about finding out if the name on the list is indeed one's gr grandmother? >

In a message dated 8/6/2008 11:50:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I grew up 5 miles from the reservation and am proud of my Indian heritage. You are probably eligible for enrollment with the Poarch Creek Band, but not necessarily. Check the internet for genealogical information on the mixed blood families who were ancestors of the Poarch Creeks. They received their reserves and exemption from deportation to Oklahoma because of working for the US Army during the Removal Period. There are only certain families eligible. You must prove descent from one of the households granted reserves. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Yes, Michelle is right. The Pee Dees are Creeks, even thought the State of South Carolina told them for a long time that they were Siouan. The Pee Dees probably started wanting to call themselves something other than Creek during the Red Stick War Period. A lot of Georgia Friendly Creeks were murdered just because they had the same tribal label as the Red Stick Faction in Alabama. Michael Jacobs, in Waycross, found an old report from a US Army officer that only four women out of 112 men, women and children survived an ambush by militia forces on the Georgia side of the Chattahoochee River as they were returning home from assisting the US Army in the Second Seminole War. They were ALLIES, yet were masscred. It's the old divide and conquer strategy used again. I feel sure that politicians in during the early 1800s encouraged animosity between the Muscogees and the Seminoles for the same reason. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Ever since the politically infused terms of BLANK American has been pushed out into the legal and social system for various colors of Americans, except for Caucasian that is, a separation and polarization of peoples have occurred. Mark my word....skin color discrimination among all people will be getting worse than it is. The biggest social injustice to all Americans is calling people African American....Italian American, Native American, etc! I have never liked my ancestors, my Indian blood, and Indian friends being referred to as a Native Americans. It's always twisted in my gut. Oddly, I recently read from a website, don't remember where, that it seems most Indians from America or of American decent that were canvassed preferred a label of American Indian over Native American. If not being called a Creek or similar, American Indian sits far better personally. I don't know what the different kinds of Creek are in my family blood make up.....sort of like the Anglo side of a typical American. I know I have ancestors that would be in the Poarch Band of today, but can't join up with what I have yet. Am I personally any less of Creek than I am because of that? No. Steve Travis wrote a long article a few years ago that made sense on this subject. Am I Poarch? Yes and no. Do I have some kind of Creek blood in my body? Yes. What kind, who knows. BUT I DO KNOW I DO NOT POSSES NATIVE AMERICAN BLOOD....DO HAVE AMERICAN INDIAN BLOOD THOUGH...my choice. TT P.SO. Many of us probably have Pee Dee in us......many came out of SC to GA to AL it seems. I'm in SC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JMSchohn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek >I say that I am PeeDee, or a member of the PeeDee Indian Nation. We are a >Creek people, but we just call ourselves PeeDee as our ancestors did. I am >Bear clan. And I never refer to myself as Native American (since that >applies to anyone born in the Americas), though others are of course free >to use the term. I just figure my grandfathers and grandmothers all said we >were Indian, and if that was good enough for them, who am I to question? :) > > > In a message dated 08/06/08 11:27:50 Eastern Standard Time, > TalliyaSoutheast writes: > > Hey! > > Creeks are not known to carry a chip on their shoulder like many Native > American groups. For one thing, we were a political alliance to start > with, not a > pure ethnic group. Most people in the state recognized tribes in the > Southeast just call themselves Eastern Creeks. Oklahoma Creeks just > call > themselves Creeks, or if they are politically correct, call themselves > Citizens of > the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Virtually, everybody in the Southeast are > mixed-heritage. I know that I am more Scottish than I am Creek. On top > of that, > the people in the Southeast come from a wide variety of Creek branches, > who > often spoke different languages and dialects. So if I was politically > correct, > I would call myself an Okonee Creek. > > Basically, it is no big deal with most Creek people. I think that comes > from pride in our very ancient and sophisticated heritage. > > Richard T. > > > In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:17:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I simply wanted to know if the Creek people on this List want to be > known today as, say, > > a __________ Creek > > from the ___________ Tribe or Clan > > of the _____________ Nation or Confederacy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Just wondering if any one else out there is part of The Poarch Band of Creek Indians.? I grew up 5 miles from the reservation and am proud of my Indian heritage. Just started a family tree on Ancestry and am needing so advice. Example- a Great- Great-(along ways back) was married to a Tuskegee woman. That's all it says for her name. Anyone out there know McGhee's and Rolin's and Colbert's and Barnhill's? My Granny was a full-blood and my Paw-Paw was a half. Anyone feel free to write! Jennifer Rolin Boehs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Timothy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek > Ever since the politically infused terms of BLANK American has been pushed > out into the legal and social system for various colors of Americans, > except > for Caucasian that is, a separation and polarization of peoples have > occurred. Mark my word....skin color discrimination among all people will > be getting worse than it is. The biggest social injustice to all > Americans > is calling people African American....Italian American, Native American, > etc! I have never liked my ancestors, my Indian blood, and Indian > friends > being referred to as a Native Americans. It's always twisted in my gut. > Oddly, I recently read from a website, don't remember where, that it > seems > most Indians from America or of American decent that were canvassed > preferred a label of American Indian over Native American. If not being > called a Creek or similar, American Indian sits far better personally. I > don't know what the different kinds of Creek are in my family blood make > up.....sort of like the Anglo side of a typical American. I know I have > ancestors that would be in the Poarch Band of today, but can't join up > with > what I have yet. Am I personally any less of Creek than I am because of > that? No. Steve Travis wrote a long article a few years ago that made > sense on this subject. Am I Poarch? Yes and no. Do I have some kind of > Creek blood in my body? Yes. What kind, who knows. BUT I DO KNOW I DO > NOT POSSES NATIVE AMERICAN BLOOD....DO HAVE AMERICAN INDIAN BLOOD > THOUGH...my choice. TT P.SO. Many of us probably have Pee Dee in > us......many came out of SC to GA to AL it seems. I'm in SC. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JMSchohn" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:40 AM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] What do you call a Creek > > >>I say that I am PeeDee, or a member of the PeeDee Indian Nation. We are a >>Creek people, but we just call ourselves PeeDee as our ancestors did. I am >>Bear clan. And I never refer to myself as Native American (since that >>applies to anyone born in the Americas), though others are of course free >>to use the term. I just figure my grandfathers and grandmothers all said >>we >>were Indian, and if that was good enough for them, who am I to question? >>:) >> >> >> In a message dated 08/06/08 11:27:50 Eastern Standard Time, >> TalliyaSoutheast writes: >> >> Hey! >> >> Creeks are not known to carry a chip on their shoulder like many Native >> American groups. For one thing, we were a political alliance to start >> with, not a >> pure ethnic group. Most people in the state recognized tribes in the >> Southeast just call themselves Eastern Creeks. Oklahoma Creeks just >> call >> themselves Creeks, or if they are politically correct, call themselves >> Citizens of >> the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Virtually, everybody in the Southeast are >> mixed-heritage. I know that I am more Scottish than I am Creek. On top >> of that, >> the people in the Southeast come from a wide variety of Creek branches, >> who >> often spoke different languages and dialects. So if I was politically >> correct, >> I would call myself an Okonee Creek. >> >> Basically, it is no big deal with most Creek people. I think that comes >> from pride in our very ancient and sophisticated heritage. >> >> Richard T. >> >> >> In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:17:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> I simply wanted to know if the Creek people on this List want to be >> known today as, say, >> >> a __________ Creek >> >> from the ___________ Tribe or Clan >> >> of the _____________ Nation or Confederacy >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I say that I am PeeDee, or a member of the PeeDee Indian Nation. We are a Creek people, but we just call ourselves PeeDee as our ancestors did. I am Bear clan. And I never refer to myself as Native American (since that applies to anyone born in the Americas), though others are of course free to use the term. I just figure my grandfathers and grandmothers all said we were Indian, and if that was good enough for them, who am I to question? :) In a message dated 08/06/08 11:27:50 Eastern Standard Time, TalliyaSoutheast writes: Hey! Creeks are not known to carry a chip on their shoulder like many Native American groups. For one thing, we were a political alliance to start with, not a pure ethnic group. Most people in the state recognized tribes in the Southeast just call themselves Eastern Creeks. Oklahoma Creeks just call themselves Creeks, or if they are politically correct, call themselves Citizens of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Virtually, everybody in the Southeast are mixed-heritage. I know that I am more Scottish than I am Creek. On top of that, the people in the Southeast come from a wide variety of Creek branches, who often spoke different languages and dialects. So if I was politically correct, I would call myself an Okonee Creek. Basically, it is no big deal with most Creek people. I think that comes from pride in our very ancient and sophisticated heritage. Richard T. In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:17:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I simply wanted to know if the Creek people on this List want to be known today as, say, a __________ Creek from the ___________ Tribe or Clan of the _____________ Nation or Confederacy

This writing and your hypothesis makes sense to me. Although I am new at gathering any kind of information about my Creek ancestors, I have some observations that in turn has lead to some questions. A ways back I looked for pictures of Creeks....men and women...to get a feel of the old ways. One thing that stands out more than anything is where did they come up with the turbans and short hair......shorter than the typical Indian impressions I've seen in various tribes. However, mentally looking back some 30-40 years ago with some pictures I saw of various tribes in Mexico and on down to South America, including the recent discovery of a "lost tribe", the hair style of Creeks and those others seem somewhat similar. I spent some time in the Middle East as well and the Far East. Seeing the turbans on my ancestors was a shock causing immediate wonderment. I couldn't see how the Arab nation's people or the East Indians of India could have inspired the wearing of a turban on one particular group of people in the South East United States....of course there may be others I am unaware of. Richard, your ideas may fit so well with me because I'm ignorant about any other possibilities that could make sense......don't know. They sure didn't get the habit from surrounding indigenous Indians, did they? TT ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:03 AM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] More on political organization - similarity of Creeks with Chichen Itza > One of the most fascinating deductive reasonings I have come with in the > past year involves the similarities between the government of the Maya > city of > Chichen Itza in the northern Yucatan Peninsula, and the subsequent > organization of Creek ancestral towns during our "Golden Era." > > There is substantial evidence that Ocmulgee was founded by non-elite > refugees from the Maya city of Waka in Guatemala - or at least the > children of those > refugees. Waka was mostly abandoned by 880 AD after the city had been > razed > and its entire elite executed by an enemy city. Ocmulgee was founded > about > 20 years later. However, Ocmulgee seems to have been more of a massive > regional trade conurbation, where many cultures blended, not the capital > of a > new state. > > Chichen Itza had a government very different than most Maya cities. Its > Great Sun was not a hereditary king, but a symbolic head of state and > administrator elected by a legislative body composed entirely of the > elite. Therefore, > its government was almost identical to that of the Old Roman Republic > prior > to Emperor Augustus. Commoners evidently had little or no say in the > management of the city state. Slaves certainly had no rights at all. > > Stellae from neighboring cities in Yucatan tell of a massive rebellion by > the commoners or slaves around Chichen Itza in response to droughts and > famines. > After the rebellion, few people lived in Chichen Itza and it was no longer > a > powerful influence on the region. Archaeologists long thought the virtual > abandonment of Chichen Itza occurred around 1200 AD. Recently, more > accurate > radiocarbon dating has placed the period of the rebellion and abandonment > to > be in the late 900s AD. > > This date is important, because around 1000 AD, many, many new towns > suddenly appeared in the Creek Motherland - the founding of famous places > such as > Ochesee and Etalwa are definitely from that period. I have a theory that > waves > of illiterate Maya commoners arrived in the Southeast immediately after > the > abandonment of Chichen Itza. They set themselves up as the elite among > Muskogeans, who were disunited by centuries of clan vengeance warfare, > and tried to > recreate the world they had known in the Yucatan, but also incorporated > the > clan system as a democratic counterbalance to the abuses of the elite in > the > Maya world. > > In fact, Creek tradition remembers a time when there was much misery > because of constant vengeance warfare between clans. Sun Man and Sun Woman > appeared > on the scene and brought peace, civilization and advanced agriculture to > the > people. The descendants of Sun Man and Sun Woman became the new elite. > > The seeds of this theory go back to many moons ago when I was 20 years old > and sitting in awe in the office of the world famous archaeologist, Dr. > Roman > Pina-Chan. Pina-Chan was director of the Museo Nacional de Anthropologia > in > Mexico City, and the coordinator of my fellowship. Pina-Chan was also a > Maya, > and had a humility and open-mindedness about him that is often missing in > contemporary anthropologists. > > I had just given him a Smithsonian book on the Indians of the Southeast. > After first glancing at the photos of the artifacts from Etowah Mounds, > he > canceled his next appointment and spent another hour with me. His most > poignant > observation occurred after seeing the photos of the famous statues from > Etowah Mounds. "Ricardo, why did your Indios make statues of slaves? The > turbans > they wear were the mark of a slave, farmer or laborer among the Maya. > They > still are. Were your people once slaves of the Mayas?" > > Then, fast forward to the year, 2007. I am watching the movie, > "Apocalypto" and see the slaves and laborers of the fictional Maya city > all wearing > white turbans. "Oh my God! Dr. Pina-Chan was right!" > > Of course, this theory flies in the face of everything that Este-hatka > archaeologists are taught these days. They are already shunning my books > and me > for merely mentioning it. It will take a lot more research to back up > the > theory. First, I must dig out of the financial disaster caused by the > Fernbank > Museum when I almost lost my house and car in April. However, every > known > archaeological fact I read, is backing up the theory. At least, I have > something to keep me busy for several years! > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hey! Creeks are not known to carry a chip on their shoulder like many Native American groups. For one thing, we were a political alliance to start with, not a pure ethnic group. Most people in the state recognized tribes in the Southeast just call themselves Eastern Creeks. Oklahoma Creeks just call themselves Creeks, or if they are politically correct, call themselves Citizens of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Virtually, everybody in the Southeast are mixed-heritage. I know that I am more Scottish than I am Creek. On top of that, the people in the Southeast come from a wide variety of Creek branches, who often spoke different languages and dialects. So if I was politically correct, I would call myself an Okonee Creek. Basically, it is no big deal with most Creek people. I think that comes from pride in our very ancient and sophisticated heritage. Richard T. In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:17:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I simply wanted to know if the Creek people on this List want to be known today as, say, a __________ Creek from the ___________ Tribe or Clan of the _____________ Nation or Confederacy I was trying to learn the proper or appropriate terminology, so I wouldn't be rubbing anyone the wrong way. Seems I've done that, and I apologize. It's the same thing I was trying to determine from Glenn about the Mexican-Americans in the San Antonio area---what they like to be called today. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Mentioning South Carolina, are the Edistos of Muskogean lineage? If not, do you have any idea of the lineage?   Thanks, Glenn --- On Wed, 8/6/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Pee Dee Creeks To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 11:38 AM Yes, Michelle is right. The Pee Dees are Creeks, even thought the State of South Carolina told them for a long time that they were Siouan. The Pee Dees probably started wanting to call themselves something other than Creek during the Red Stick War Period. A lot of Georgia Friendly Creeks were murdered just because they had the same tribal label as the Red Stick Faction in Alabama. Michael Jacobs, in Waycross, found an old report from a US Army officer that only four women out of 112 men, women and children survived an ambush by militia forces on the Georgia side of the Chattahoochee River as they were returning home from assisting the US Army in the Second Seminole War. They were ALLIES, yet were masscred. It's the old divide and conquer strategy used again. I feel sure that politicians in during the early 1800s encouraged animosity between the Muscogees and the Seminoles for the same reason. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message