In your Thompson line, is Moses Thompson, Tenn., mentioned anywhere? 1800 era? We have William Balinger Young married Minerva (Mary Jane) Thompson. Minerva may have NA in her ancestry. Can't find any information on her except date of birth and possible date of death. Both died in either Grant County or Saline County, Arkansas. Great Grandpa Wm. Bal Young is buried in Thompson Cemetery, non accessible at this time. Jane was living in Grant County, Ark. 1900 census. Thank you, Sam Thank you, Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek reserves > Hello, > > I've just reviewed my Hastie-Thompson and Eggleston books and a good > biography of Jackson, and I see no reference to his being wounded at the > Battle of Horseshoe Bend. > > He did ENTER the Creek wars with a wounded arm; he had "a slug and a > shot" which he received from a bar fight with Thomas Hart Benton and a > brother. Ten years later, when both Benton and Jackson were Senators, > they shook hands and let the previous hostility slide. > > Now, SAM HOUSTON was wounded in the leg by an arrow and received at > least two arm wounds at Horseshoe Bend. He was fighting with the U.S. > forces and was the first man to go over the breastworks. > > Creek Chief Menewa, badly wounded, escaped during the fighting, slipped > into the water, and got away by breathing through a reed. THAT'S where > all those Saturday afternoon movie serials got the idea !! > > gmw > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Rainbow, I do not know what new idears are up about Metis, but I think of them as originally the half blood mix of 1/2 French and 1/2 (Canada) Cree. They resided as a tribe or band in the north west U.S.A. , just south of the Canada border. A distinct people. There are rendezvous style gatherings up in the country mentioned and one of their characterizations are the beautiful finger woven wool yarn belt sashes and woven knee garters. I think I have a link to one of their event sites. There are some moderns in various parts of the U.S. , who have convinced themselves that .. "hey" I'm part Ind and part white european... I am Metis!! I do not care for a position on this (although already invited..) , but I would lump this outlook as new age for lack of better. Guess I'm brushing too broad. Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Memberships > Since the subject is relating to many tribes...has anyone ever heard of or > is a member of the Metis Tribe listed as United Me'tis Nation of the US > Florida State Office. > > I am most curious. > > Thanking each of you who take the time to read this entry and/or respond. > > RainbowO > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JMSchohn <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > > > I have served for many years as tribal historian and federal recognition > officer. So I can tell you that the ability to speak a unique language is > not a > requirement but can be used to fulfill the cultural continuity > requirement. > > I would also not assume that every state recognized tribe is a fraud and > that > the only "real" tribes are federal ones. My tribe is state recognized. We > are in > the process of status clarification with the federal government. I was > told by > one of the historians at the BIA that our people had one of the easiest > paths to > federal recognition of any of the remaining unrecognized tribes and that > it was > just a matter of putting the documents together. > > Does this mean every state tribe is legitimate? Of course not. But don't > paint > them all with one brush. There are many tribes, particularly in the > southeast, > that remain in tribal communities, that govern themselves through the > churches > they established when their traditional religion was outlawed. I > personally can > document my tribe from first contact. And I can demonstrate that ever > single > member is descended either from a soldier who fought in a company in the > Revolutionary War that was identified as a PeeDee Indian company or from > someone > who lived in the communities with them. Most of our people descend from > more > than one of those soldiers. I personally descend from four of them. > > When the Catawba had their federal recognition restored in the 1990s, > suddenly > federal Indians who had denounced them as not real Indians suddenly > accepted > them as such. And Chief Blue, to his credit, told them they were lap dogs > to the > BIA for treating the Catawba as something less than a tribe until the > federal > government said they were. > > We are not Indians at the whim of the U.S. government, and we are a tribe > whether they recognize us or not. We seek recognition because of the > benefits it > could bring to the quality of life of our people, not because it will make > us > Indian. The Creator already did that. > > ......stepping off my soapbox now..... > ... > > Michelle > > > > In a message dated 08/09/08 11:53:00 Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] > writes: > Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more > ignorant > than federal officials, or won't seek further information from creditable > individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money in some > way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present or > future > finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion as > well. > TT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > >> Leon, >> I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do know >> that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think there is >> something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 or >> more > years. >> There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists criteria >> for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. >> >> So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is federally >> recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be >> legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear that the > problem with >> that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state >> bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials do not >> know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does not mean >> anything special.. my view. >> >> Richard B. >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Hello, I've just reviewed my Hastie-Thompson and Eggleston books and a good biography of Jackson, and I see no reference to his being wounded at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend. He did ENTER the Creek wars with a wounded arm; he had "a slug and a shot" which he received from a bar fight with Thomas Hart Benton and a brother. Ten years later, when both Benton and Jackson were Senators, they shook hands and let the previous hostility slide. Now, SAM HOUSTON was wounded in the leg by an arrow and received at least two arm wounds at Horseshoe Bend. He was fighting with the U.S. forces and was the first man to go over the breastworks. Creek Chief Menewa, badly wounded, escaped during the fighting, slipped into the water, and got away by breathing through a reed. THAT'S where all those Saturday afternoon movie serials got the idea !! gmw

Meti is Quebecois French for someone, who is of mixed First Nations and European ancestry. The equivalent in Mexico and Central America is Mestizo. As I have mentioned ad nauseum there are very few, if any Creeks who are not of mixed genetic heritage, if one includes non-Muskogean Native American heritage. The creation of a tribe with mixed heritage members only, at first seems laughable. However, there is something in my personal experience that says that maybe it is not so ridiculous as it sounds. Over and over again, the people I end up doing business with are part Indian like myself. All of my repeat Architecture clients are either part Cherokee or part Creek. The women I am most attracted to are mixed-Muskogean heritage. Definitely would NOT kick Carrie Underwood out of my house. OKAY don't laugh, but lately more and more Caucasian Americans have seemed to me to be from another planet. I am sure they think the same way about me. We think so differently. I am honest - They will do anything for money. I instantly hit it off with all the folks I work with in the Creek Nation, but the fact is that they are all mixed heritage. In fact, I have more Creek genes in me that most of the Creek citizens I work with. On the other hand, when I come in contact with people who approach being full blooded Native Americans, there often is a psychological barrier as tall as with the pure Caucasians. In fact, I often do feel like I am in a separate race that is neither European nor Native American. YET - when I am on former Native American settlement sites (which is almost every week) - I feel the souls of the Ancient Ones welcoming me as an equal. Only people, who have Native American heritage can understand this spiritual feeling. The most strange occurrence of this spiritual connection with the Ancient Ones was in the Enchanted Ochesee Swamp (Bond Swamp National Wildlife Management Area) near Macon. My three herd dogs were obviously playing with invisible children and invisible dogs. I saw and heard nothing but felt the presence of live. I also felt that I was being welcomed warmly by the souls living in this former Creek bread basket. Most pure Caucasians don't like being in the Ochesee Swamp because to them if feels haunted. Both my dogs and I felt only happiness there. The pups did not want to leave. My question to the other mixed bloods on the list. Do you ever feel that you are another ethnic group other than European or contemporary Native American? PS - Please send any Creek princesses my way. I meet nothing but dishwater blond cows around here. There is no word for "monk" in Muskogean so we must do something about this. I have GREAT genes and would be an excellent teacher of Creek children! (chuckle) Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Since the subject is relating to many tribes...has anyone ever heard of or is a member of the Metis Tribe listed as United Me'tis Nation of the US Florida State Office. I am most curious. Thanking each of you who take the time to read this entry and/or respond. RainbowO -----Original Message----- From: JMSchohn <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership I have served for many years as tribal historian and federal recognition officer. So I can tell you that the ability to speak a unique language is not a requirement but can be used to fulfill the cultural continuity requirement. I would also not assume that every state recognized tribe is a fraud and that the only "real" tribes are federal ones. My tribe is state recognized. We are in the process of status clarification with the federal government. I was told by one of the historians at the BIA that our people had one of the easiest paths to federal recognition of any of the remaining unrecognized tribes and that it was just a matter of putting the documents together. Does this mean every state tribe is legitimate? Of course not. But don't paint them all with one brush. There are many tribes, particularly in the southeast, that remain in tribal communities, that govern themselves through the churches they established when their traditional religion was outlawed. I personally can document my tribe from first contact. And I can demonstrate that ever single member is descended either from a soldier who fought in a company in the Revolutionary War that was identified as a PeeDee Indian company or from someone who lived in the communities with them. Most of our people descend from more than one of those soldiers. I personally descend from four of them. When the Catawba had their federal recognition restored in the 1990s, suddenly federal Indians who had denounced them as not real Indians suddenly accepted them as such. And Chief Blue, to his credit, told them they were lap dogs to the BIA for treating the Catawba as something less than a tribe until the federal government said they were. We are not Indians at the whim of the U.S. government, and we are a tribe whether they recognize us or not. We seek recognition because of the benefits it could bring to the quality of life of our people, not because it will make us Indian. The Creator already did that. .....stepping off my soapbox now..... .. Michelle In a message dated 08/09/08 11:53:00 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more ignorant than federal officials, or won't seek further information from creditable individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money in some way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present or future finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion as well. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > Leon, > I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do know > that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think there is > something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 or more years. > There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists criteria > for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. > > So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is federally > recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be > legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear that the problem with > that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state > bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials do not > know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does not mean > anything special.. my view. > > Richard B. > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sam, you don't have to be legitimately offended, have to justify, or have to defend your intentions unless you find it necessary. You don't have to walk on egg shells either! Not in my opinion. I imagine many people thought that Hawkins was a "wantabee" and look how much he, and his work, is used by many for many years. What speaks to you is what you should be pursuing with great zeal and open commitment. Around a month ago, Richard T and Michelle made similar statements that being a Creek/Indian is not all about the quantum of blood heritage one has, but is more of what's inside of that person, or words to that effect. This is what would be called, wisdom speaking. Because I have proven my grand daddy was Indian, and know by apparent facts, rather than having paper trail proof that my dad's mom's side were Indian also, yet can't connect to the original Poarch listed people to be accepted as a Poarch Tribe Member. Does that change who and what my ancestors were or what and who I am? Not at all. At the present, it is disappointing that I and my family can't join up with the very people that were my family's neighbors, friends and even kin, like Hetty Seymoy (Semoice), William Dees, Charles Weatherford, etc. Does that make me a "wanntabee" in any context? Not in my opinion even though it MAY for some on some judgmental lofty perch. Besides....I can think of may MENTORS I have worked at becoming like in many ways. Is that bad? Only if it is to cash in on a commercial agenda taking something from others or if it was destructive to the membership (Meaning any level of blood quantum...or family friends). Fortunately from my studies and practice, I remember one statement Fritz Pearls, Doctor Fritz Pearls the inventor of Gestalt Therapy, made that I use often: "I'm not in this word to live up to your expectations, you are not in it to live up to mine, but by some chance we meet......that's great." My acceptance of me does not come from approval of others even if I don't meet the present "established" criteria for being accepted as a member of anything. No person or one group has the authority or right to prevent one's pursuit of any interest no matter what label you use. I qualify that statement for myself as, "providing that pursuit is not for harm or selfish gratifications." LET IT GO. Most of us that have some Indian blood in us could be seen in the same light by the elders of many years ago....but they didn't do it that way, as stated and restated by Richard T...was not the custom of Creeks. If a qualifying judgment for one NOT being some kind of "wannabee" was for everyone to have suffered the same experiences as our ancestors, not many would be accepted at all! I put off writing this until I couldn't do it any longer.......Richard T says one trait of Creek is we don't do well bridled, controlled, or restricted...OR words to that effect. He's right for this one. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Gipson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > If I sent the Lost Cherokee, to the wrong person, then I apologize. > I will not buy a membership to a NA Group. > That is not right. > I do not expect anything in return, for wanting to know if I have NA blood > in my veins. It would be an Honor, to me at least. But, NO to buying a > card. > If I offend anyone for wanting to know the truth, over family stories, > then > I guess I am a form of a Wantabee. Not intentional. I have English, > (Britain), Scotland, Ireland, and hopefully, NA. > If so, then so be it. If not, then so be it. > > Thank you, Sam > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > > >> Leon, >> I may have used that term wannabe, it is a favorite of mine. Your >> meanings >> are not how I uses it,... for me it is the vast groups who (are not Inds >> or >> even percentages of). The Wanna be groups are significanly expanding in >> my >> hunting grounds (MO) , they conduct pow wows, create crafts (with no >> regard >> or knowing of traditions to anyone/thing...) , enroll "tribal" members >> for >> a fee.., and besides that are just generally offensive. >> >> In referring to the Wanna beeesssss, the term "Culture Vulture" (I have >> heard ..) is appropriate. Used to hear them also called "Cedars" (.. >> inside they have a red heart, but they are white on the outside...). >> They >> have no problem with dancing in their ("Tandy") regalia at their (phony >> pows..). Deliver me from dedicated people!!!! >> Did I mention they have "Chiefs..." ? >> >> Richard T. did not post this,.. it is Richard B. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 5:25 PM >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >> forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas >> >> >>> We must keep in mind that the term wannabe is a negative word that is >>> often used by Native americans that have obtained Federal recognition, >>> to >>> describe anyone that is of indian descent who does not have Federal >>> recognition or a C.D.I.B. card. >>> THe federally Recognized Cherokee bands, view any state recognized >>> cherokee band as being wannabe/phony, the Creek Bands who have Federal >>> recognition have the same viewpoint towards any state recognized group. >>> >>> >>> --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Sam Gipson <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> From: Sam Gipson <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>>> forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 2:41 PM >>>> Thanks Richard B, >>>> No the tribe is not State or Federally listed on the rolls. >>>> May be one you can buy a membership into. >>>> Look up Lost Cherokee Tribe, Arkansas and Missouri. >>>> >>>> I have some errands to run and will find the site for you >>>> to check out. >>>> >>>> Tks, Sam I know they do not make and sell NA jewelry. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:21 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>>> forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas >>>> >>>> >>>> > Sam, >>>> > I did not think they are recognized, but I do not have >>>> a need to know on >>>> > that one. >>>> > >>>> > There were some very early Cherokees settled vicinity >>>> of Dover... (I'm >>>> > getting a vision..)...:o) a significant school or >>>> church situation. This >>>> > is central to the area that John Jolly (chief of the >>>> Old Settlers) 1828/29 >>>> > , >>>> > was located (he maybe my connection, plus where Sam >>>> Huston "holed up" >>>> > before going on to his fame in TX ) and due south of >>>> there on the Arkansas >>>> > River is a large population of Cheroks and a very old >>>> Cherokee cemetery on >>>> > the bluffs above the river. >>>> > By the way, these places are getting in the >>>> neighborhood of where my >>>> > "pioneers" (Thomas Clark from TN in 1853/or >>>> 54) began,... in extreme >>>> > southwest Newton County , AR. Am probably related to >>>> Merle Haggard, he >>>> > claims to be from same place. Everybody (!!) is cuzn >>>> there. There are >>>> > some >>>> > folks that area who quit talking to me about genealogy >>>> (their ancestors >>>> > murdered my gggrandfather Thomas Clark, spring 1863). >>>> As I took apart the >>>> > last threads of information,... I had it and they just >>>> "shut up". >>>> > >>>> > If anyone encounters some research on a battle/attack >>>> (1st week of >>>> > February >>>> > , 1863) involving 7 members of the union 1st AR CAV , >>>> at Mulberry Springs, >>>> > AR, I surely would be interested. It was an attack on >>>> a log "compound" >>>> > against 35 Mankins or Manican Indians. I have looked >>>> some and believe >>>> > these Manikin/Mankins are originally from/part of the >>>> Powhatans in easter >>>> > Virginia ??). The inhabitants of the compound were >>>> paid partisans , hired >>>> > by Peter Mankins. I have read the military record, >>>> but hope there is more >>>> > info "out there". >>>> > >>>> > Richard B. >>>> > >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: "Sam Gipson" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> > To: <[email protected]> >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:52 PM >>>> > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>>> > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and >>>> Texas >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Thanks Richard B., >>>> >> He is legit. His Uncle and Aunt are on the rolls >>>> and so was his grand >>>> >> parents and parents. >>>> >> His brother also. >>>> >> I understand the situation on the wanta bees. >>>> >> But, it is listed as the Lost Cherokee Nation, >>>> with no benefits, or >>>> >> Federal >>>> >> recognition. >>>> >> Arkansas and Missouri. >>>> >> The main office use to be in Clinton, Ark. and has >>>> now moved to Dover, >>>> >> Ark. >>>> >> if I am not mistaken. >>>> >> Thank you, my friend. >>>> >> >>>> >> Sam >>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >> From: "csmoke" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >> To: <[email protected]> >>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:56 PM >>>> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for >>>> >> ancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and >>>> Texas >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> Sam, >>>> >>> Not to disappoint, but there are many (many) >>>> wannabe fraudlent groups in >>>> >>> the >>>> >>> area you mention. Before you recognize them, >>>> you might want to find a >>>> >>> site >>>> >>> that lists all the federally recognized tribes >>>> and see if the group you >>>> >>> mention is on the list. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I have "bumped" into some of these >>>> people and it is disturbing to see >>>> >>> them >>>> >>> using "enrollement cards" with >>>> numbers of their own manufacture. Part >>>> >>> of >>>> >>> the issue for me ( and others..) is they refer >>>> to themselves as Cherokee >>>> >>> tribe and represent craft work (with logos..) >>>> as authentic native >>>> >>> american. >>>> >>> To become one of them, the usually needed >>>> genealogy is a $20 /or check >>>> >>> made >>>> >>> out to them. I have not been arround any of >>>> them for a while (they got >>>> >>> to >>>> >>> know me..) , but I suspect they are still >>>> getting a high level of >>>> >>> membership >>>> >>> enrollment. Most of their starting dialog >>>> with strangers is" we are >>>> >>> descended from Inds who jumped off the >>>> boats,.. my ancestors escaped >>>> >>> from >>>> >>> the trail of tears.." (thats why we are >>>> here, etc..) Yuck. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Richard B. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>> From: "Sam Gipson" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:09 PM >>>> >>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for >>>> ancestors >>>> >>> alwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Richard B, >>>> >>>> I believe the Cherokee's in Ark. and >>>> Missouri, are referred to as the >>>> >>>> Lost >>>> >>>> Cherokee Tribe. A friend has his card, >>>> Lost Cherokee Tribe. (Arkansas >>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>> Missouri) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, Sam >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: "csmoke" >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:29 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>>> for ancestors always >>>> >>>> checkoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Richard T., when cooking the Opossom, >>>> I guess my ggrandmother forgot >>>> >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> "parboil" and went straight >>>> to the oven. Grease/oil level was half up >>>> >>>>> in >>>> >>>>> the baking pan, but I think they used >>>> to dip their homemade bread in >>>> >>>>> that. >>>> >>>>> That was one of the few foods I tried >>>> and did not acquire a taste for. >>>> >>>>> (too >>>> >>>>> much oil..). How do you get those >>>> roadkills to eat the >>>> >>>>> buttermilk/etc??? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> In locations for natives,.. remember >>>> that about 1817 was a treaty for >>>> >>>>> the >>>> >>>>> Cherokees (referred to as Old >>>> Settlers) to self emigrate to their >>>> >>>>> Reservation in north central Arkansas. >>>> (they stayed there until about >>>> >>>>> 1830) >>>> >>>>> when the reservation was dissolved in >>>> another treaty and the Old >>>> >>>>> Settlers >>>> >>>>> went to Ind Territory. 1817 look for >>>> "passport" allowing Inds >>>> >>>>> (reds...:o) >>>> >>>>> to travel. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Sam Huston , the Texican, was very >>>> hooked to the Cherokees, he was >>>> >>>>> known >>>> >>>>> as >>>> >>>>> "The Raven" & book title >>>> same name , .. in his biography you see >>>> >>>>> much. >>>> >>>>> (one of my family names chief (John >>>> Jolly) , adopted him, but others >>>> >>>>> claim >>>> >>>>> not the same person. Neither of us >>>> can "proove" yes/no , but I have >>>> >>>>> some >>>> >>>>> paper trial for that!! >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Also, along with your good >>>> information, you did not mention 1811 >>>> >>>>> earthquake >>>> >>>>> SE Missouri "bootheel" , >>>> Cherokee living there with chief "Bowl" , >>>> >>>>> fled >>>> >>>>> to >>>> >>>>> TX , they considered the ground shake >>>> a bad medicine message or >>>> >>>>> something. >>>> >>>>> Quiz.. : Feds made 40 treaties with >>>> the Cherokee,.. how many of the >>>> >>>>> treaty >>>> >>>>> conditions were kept by this govt ?? >>>> (tune in this theatre next week >>>> >>>>> for >>>> >>>>> the answer..)!! >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Richard B. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>>> From: <[email protected]> >>>> >>>>> To: >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:22 >>>> PM >>>> >>>>> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>>> for ancestors always check >>>> >>>>> outArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>> The mention about the new museum >>>> In Fort Smith, AK reminded of >>>> >>>>>> something >>>> >>>>>> I >>>> >>>>>> discovered in my research in the >>>> past. I found that thousands and >>>> >>>>>> thousands >>>> >>>>>> of Creeks and Cherokees went west >>>> prior to the Trail of Tears in the >>>> >>>>>> late >>>> >>>>>> 1830s. Very few went initially to >>>> Oklahoma because it was claimed by >>>> >>>>>> other >>>> >>>>>> tribes. Cherokees and Upper >>>> Creeks often went to Arkansas, sometimes >>>> >>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>> Missouri. >>>> >>>>>> Lower Creeks, Alabamas, and >>>> Koasati's went to Louisiana, Texas and >>>> >>>>>> Mexico - >>>> >>>>>> perhaps also to the southern tip >>>> of Arkansas. Some Cherokees went >>>> >>>>>> to >>>> >>>>>> Texas >>>> >>>>>> and then to Mexico. Most >>>> Cherokees were chased out of Texas after >>>> >>>>>> it >>>> >>>>>> became a >>>> >>>>>> Republic. However, a considerable >>>> number of Alabamas, Koasati's and >>>> >>>>>> Lower >>>> >>>>>> Creeks were allowed to stay in >>>> Texas because they had fought along >>>> >>>>>> side >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>> Texans against the Mexicans. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> As I mentioned last week, also >>>> look for Friendly "Georgia" Creeks in >>>> >>>>>> Texas. >>>> >>>>>> The Friendly (Hitchiti-speaking) >>>> Creeks were promised that they >>>> >>>>>> could >>>> >>>>>> keep >>>> >>>>>> their farms in Georgia and South >>>> Carolina, but many were either >>>> >>>>>> illegally >>>> >>>>>> dispossessed or felt insecure in >>>> an anti-Indian political >>>> >>>>>> environment. >>>> >>>>>> The >>>> >>>>>> Friendly Creeks carried with them >>>> a hybrid culture that was a >>>> >>>>>> mixture >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>> Mound-Builders and Scottish >>>> frontiersmen. Many also has aspirations >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> being >>>> >>>>>> planters or ranchers in Texas. >>>> Their descendants tended to blend in >>>> >>>>>> with >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>> Texans since Creeks are not that >>>> different in appearance from >>>> >>>>>> Mexican >>>> >>>>>> Mestizos. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Also, when planning to serve >>>> possum for prominent guests or wedding >>>> >>>>>> parties, >>>> >>>>>> be sure and feed the possum >>>> cornbread and buttermilk for a couple of >>>> >>>>>> weeks >>>> >>>>>> before dressing them. Parboiling >>>> the possum for awhile will get rid >>>> >>>>>> of >>>> >>>>>> the >>>> >>>>>> excess fat created by the >>>> cornbread and buttermilk. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> Richard T. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> **************Looking for a car >>>> that's sporty, fun and fits in your >>>> >>>>>> budget? >>>> >>>>>> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >>>> >>>>>> >>>> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >>>> >>>>>> ) >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, >>>> please send an email to >>>> >>>>>> >>>> [email protected] with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' >>>> >>>>>> without >>>> >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the message >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please >>>> send an email to >>>> >>>>> [email protected] >>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> >>>>> without >>>> >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body >>>> of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send >>>> an email to >>>> >>>> [email protected] with >>>> the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> >>>> without >>>> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of >>>> the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>>> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>>> email to >>>> >>> [email protected] with the >>>> word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> ------------------------------- >>>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>>> to >>>> >> [email protected] with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without >>>> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>>> message >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------- >>>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> > [email protected] with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without >>>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> [email protected] with the word >>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>>> the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Barb, I have to say that I don't think anyone on this site is saying that others are wannabees.... only that some of the federally recognized tribes call us "wannabees". I think that most of us on this list have the same stories you mentioned. Please do not take the conversations here as personal insult. Most people on this list are very helpful and willing to share whatever knowledge and skills they have. Jackie GGG Granddaughter of Zachariah C. Phillips STB Creek Indian -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of barbara keel Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:44 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas I must agree here. For over 4 decades I have searched for answers, for proof of my NA heritage. My grandmother and her family told us that her own mother was full blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side knew the truth but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty little secret and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know who you are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of not having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain books, things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we are wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told I was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable and brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, the mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to that nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their ancestors of Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not 2 generations back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, it is heartbreaking and then to go to a site in hopes of finding some way to get past that brick wall only to be called a wannabee and made to feel stupid for looking for what you have found is wrong. Barb Sam Gipson wrote: > If I offend anyone for wanting to know the truth, over family stories, then > I guess I am a form of a Wantabee. Not intentional. I have English, > (Britain), Scotland, Ireland, and hopefully, NA. > If so, then so be it. If not, then so be it. > > Thank you, Sam > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 9:02 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1601 - Release Date: 8/8/2008 9:02 AM

I have never considered someone with Indian ancestry and no tribal ties to be a wannabe. When I think about wannabees, I think about the folks with a "Cherokee Indian princess" great great grandmother or the boy scouts at pow wows with not one drop of Indian blood but the finest regalia money can buy. I think about New Agers who are "Indian in their heart," or even better, "Indian in a previous life." As tribal historian and genealogist, I have met many people searching for their heritage. There is a longing there to find out who they are and they have little more to go on than whispered rumors in their own family. Sometimes I can help them document who they are and sometimes not. Often, I can point to traditions in their family that they didn't know where Indian, or to physical features that reveal their ancestry. But those folks aren't wannabees. Those folks are our lost cousins, and for those of us who are fortunate enough to have always known who we are, our job is to help them find their way home. Michelle In a message dated 08/09/08 12:44:56 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I must agree here. For over 4 decades I have searched for answers, for proof of my NA heritage. My grandmother and her family told us that her own mother was full blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side knew the truth but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty little secret and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know who you are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of not having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain books, things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we are wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told I was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable and brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, the mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to that nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their ancestors of Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not 2 generations back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, it is heartbreaking and then to go to a site in hopes of finding some way to get past that brick wall only to be called a wannabee and made to feel stupid for looking for what you have found is wrong. Barb

There are lots of links for Metis here, too: http://www.turtleisland.org/communities/communities-metis.htm On Aug 9, 2008, at 12:49 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Since the subject is relating to many tribes...has anyone ever > heard of or is a member of the Metis Tribe listed as United Me'tis > Nation of the US Florida State Office. > > I am most curious. > > Thanking each of you who take the time to read this entry and/or > respond. > > RainbowO > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JMSchohn <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > > > I have served for many years as tribal historian and federal > recognition > officer. So I can tell you that the ability to speak a unique > language is not a > requirement but can be used to fulfill the cultural continuity > requirement. > > I would also not assume that every state recognized tribe is a > fraud and that > the only "real" tribes are federal ones. My tribe is state > recognized. We are in > the process of status clarification with the federal government. I > was told by > one of the historians at the BIA that our people had one of the > easiest paths to > federal recognition of any of the remaining unrecognized tribes and > that it was > just a matter of putting the documents together. > > Does this mean every state tribe is legitimate? Of course not. But > don't paint > them all with one brush. There are many tribes, particularly in the > southeast, > that remain in tribal communities, that govern themselves through > the churches > they established when their traditional religion was outlawed. I > personally can > document my tribe from first contact. And I can demonstrate that > ever single > member is descended either from a soldier who fought in a company > in the > Revolutionary War that was identified as a PeeDee Indian company or > from someone > who lived in the communities with them. Most of our people descend > from more > than one of those soldiers. I personally descend from four of them. > > When the Catawba had their federal recognition restored in the > 1990s, suddenly > federal Indians who had denounced them as not real Indians suddenly > accepted > them as such. And Chief Blue, to his credit, told them they were > lap dogs to the > BIA for treating the Catawba as something less than a tribe until > the federal > government said they were. > > We are not Indians at the whim of the U.S. government, and we are a > tribe > whether they recognize us or not. We seek recognition because of > the benefits it > could bring to the quality of life of our people, not because it > will make us > Indian. The Creator already did that. > > .....stepping off my soapbox now..... > .. > > Michelle > > > > In a message dated 08/09/08 11:53:00 Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] > writes: > Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more > ignorant > than federal officials, or won't seek further information from > creditable > individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money > in some > way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present > or future > finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion > as well. > TT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > >> Leon, >> I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do >> know >> that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think >> there is >> something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 >> or more > years. >> There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists >> criteria >> for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. >> >> So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is >> federally >> recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be >> legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear >> that the > problem with >> that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state >> bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials >> do not >> know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does >> not mean >> anything special.. my view. >> >> Richard B. >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of > the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here's a tiny bit of info about the Metis in Indiana: http://www.theledger.com/article/20080122/NEWS/801220313/-1/WIRE03 On Aug 9, 2008, at 12:49 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Since the subject is relating to many tribes...has anyone ever > heard of or is a member of the Metis Tribe listed as United Me'tis > Nation of the US Florida State Office. > > I am most curious. > > Thanking each of you who take the time to read this entry and/or > respond. > > RainbowO > > > -----Original Message----- > From: JMSchohn <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > > > I have served for many years as tribal historian and federal > recognition > officer. So I can tell you that the ability to speak a unique > language is not a > requirement but can be used to fulfill the cultural continuity > requirement. > > I would also not assume that every state recognized tribe is a > fraud and that > the only "real" tribes are federal ones. My tribe is state > recognized. We are in > the process of status clarification with the federal government. I > was told by > one of the historians at the BIA that our people had one of the > easiest paths to > federal recognition of any of the remaining unrecognized tribes and > that it was > just a matter of putting the documents together. > > Does this mean every state tribe is legitimate? Of course not. But > don't paint > them all with one brush. There are many tribes, particularly in the > southeast, > that remain in tribal communities, that govern themselves through > the churches > they established when their traditional religion was outlawed. I > personally can > document my tribe from first contact. And I can demonstrate that > ever single > member is descended either from a soldier who fought in a company > in the > Revolutionary War that was identified as a PeeDee Indian company or > from someone > who lived in the communities with them. Most of our people descend > from more > than one of those soldiers. I personally descend from four of them. > > When the Catawba had their federal recognition restored in the > 1990s, suddenly > federal Indians who had denounced them as not real Indians suddenly > accepted > them as such. And Chief Blue, to his credit, told them they were > lap dogs to the > BIA for treating the Catawba as something less than a tribe until > the federal > government said they were. > > We are not Indians at the whim of the U.S. government, and we are a > tribe > whether they recognize us or not. We seek recognition because of > the benefits it > could bring to the quality of life of our people, not because it > will make us > Indian. The Creator already did that. > > .....stepping off my soapbox now..... > .. > > Michelle > > > > In a message dated 08/09/08 11:53:00 Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] > writes: > Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more > ignorant > than federal officials, or won't seek further information from > creditable > individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money > in some > way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present > or future > finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion > as well. > TT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > >> Leon, >> I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do >> know >> that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think >> there is >> something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 >> or more > years. >> There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists >> criteria >> for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. >> >> So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is >> federally >> recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be >> legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear >> that the > problem with >> that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state >> bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials >> do not >> know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does >> not mean >> anything special.. my view. >> >> Richard B. >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of > the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree with both of you, Michelle and Barbara. Right now, I'm engaged in trying to track down some of my cousins because I promised my mother when she passd on to continue looking for those of our family that we had lost contact with. Most native communities of my acquaintance go to great lengths to track down people who were forcibly removed from their communities. And I've seen many elders weep tears of joy at reconnecting with a lost relative or even being able to help a total stranger re-connect with his/her rightful tribe. I read not too long ago of a group that was started by a community in Minnesota, just to reach out to people who had been adopted out of the tribe. The problems facing displaced indigenous people don't just affect us of the Creek Confederacy. It's a global problem. The ultimate goal of repatriation, in my opinion, is repatriation of the living, and finding ways to bring our people home. And I for one feel the loss of relatives very keenly. I wonder what happened to the people who were taken away from us, how they turned out, if they're happy, if they're some place good, are people nice to them? It's like having part of one's body cut off. Of course, these type of searches take both time and money. A lot of the people on this listserve have been carrying on their searches for decades. I feel like Michelle, when I can help somebody get on to some leads that are helpful to them, I count that as a good day. I consider wannabees to be people who seek to benefit from the suffering and struggles of indigenous people by presenting themselves as indigenous for profit, when meanwhile, we have real indigenous people who've been disenfranchised. Many who can't even qualify for citizenship in their own tribes, because they don't have the type of paperwork required by a foreign government, or who have their blood from several different tribes, precisely because of displacement and termination policies, so they don't have enough 'quantum' from any one of those tribes to qualify for citizenship. And in fairness to tribal administrators and all, they are responsible for administering what is essentially an inheritance. And they are legally bound to require that anyone claiming part of an inheritance resulting from a treaty or what have you, be able to 'prove' in writing that they are a lineal descendant of the heir or heirs in question. That's the case both in and out of Indian Country. I know tribal administrators who've had people come in that they KNEW were part of their community, but they couldn't sign the person up for whatever benefit because they just couldn't pull together the type of paperwork that the law calls for, or they had paperwork but it misidentified their ancestor's ethnicity. So please don't get discouraged. One of the reasons there is a listserve like this is to reach out to folks who have been displaced from their nations and to try and create ways for Indian people who want to continue to participate as indigenous people, whatever their legal, paperwok situation, to be able to do that. Mvto, Deborah On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 13:08:17 -0400, JMSchohn wrote > I have never considered someone with Indian ancestry and no tribal > ties to be a wannabe. When I think about wannabees, I think about > the folks with a "Cherokee Indian princess" great great grandmother > or the boy scouts at pow wows with not one drop of Indian blood but > the finest regalia money can buy. I think about New Agers who are > "Indian in their heart," or even better, "Indian in a previous life." > > As tribal historian and genealogist, I have met many people > searching for their heritage. There is a longing there to find out > who they are and they have little more to go on than whispered > rumors in their own family. Sometimes I can help them document who > they are and sometimes not. Often, I can point to traditions in > their family that they didn't know where Indian, or to physical > features that reveal their ancestry. But those folks aren't > wannabees. Those folks are our lost cousins, and for those of us who > are fortunate enough to have always known who we are, our job is to > help them find their way home. > > Michelle > > In a message dated 08/09/08 12:44:56 Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: I must agree here. For over 4 > decades I have searched for answers, for proof of my NA heritage. > My grandmother and her family told us that her own mother was full > blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side knew the truth > but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty little secret > and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know who you > are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of not > having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain books, > things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we are > wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't > prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as > black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told > I was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable > and brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also > condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, > the mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to > that nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their > ancestors of Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not > 2 generations back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, > it is heartbreaking and then to go to a site in hopes of finding > some way to get past that brick wall only to be called a wannabee > and made to feel stupid for looking for what you have found is > wrong. Barb > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CREEK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --

Some of you with plans to visit the Archives might find this excerpt useful. It is on the NARA site and I did track down their other information on these boxes there. From what I turned up so far, other than one index book these records have not been microfilmed and can only be accessed at the National Archives. However, since this was written I know many, many more collections have been filmed and sent to Atlanta, so this could possibly be there or at other satellite National Archives locations. As I understood the article, even though the applications were received at one Arkansas office, they applied to any former Indian territory lands that the government was opening for settlement. Evelyn S. Leslie Indian Bounty Land Applications By Mary Frances Morrow An act of March 3, 1855 (10 Stat. L. 701) extended military bounty land laws to Indians, entitling veterans from the Revolutionary War and the Indian Wars of 1818 and 1836 to warrants that could be exchanged for public lands. A few earlier acts had specified bounty lands for Indians, but this act marked the first time land was made available on a large scale. Applications for Indian Bounty Lands Applications were taken by Indian agents in the Indian Territory west of Arkansas in the years immediately following the act. The records are now a part of Record Group 15, Records of the Veterans Administration (entry 27 of Preliminary Inventory NM-22, "Case files of bounty land warrant applications of Indians based on service between 1812 and 1855"). They consist of forty-five boxes of envelopes, around a hundred per box. The envelopes are identified on the outside as "Bounty Land Files, Act of 1855." The name of the veteran is given, his grade, service date, company commander, tribal affiliation, and the warrant number and number of acres. The applications have been arranged alphabetically by the name of the veteran. These names are primarily transcriptions of Indian names, such as In-to-yo-ye, Ish-tar-yi-see, or Soks-set-he-ne-ha. Whenever second names appear, the order is by the first name. For example, Ne-har-locco Harjo is filed under N. Inside the envelope is an application, usually a printed form with the appropriate blanks filled in by the Indian agent. The form typically gives the name of the veteran and establishes the veteran's eligibility for bounty lands through military service in a particular war. There is confirmation of the veteran's service in the form of statements and signatures of witnesses. The claimant might be the veteran, his widow, or a minor heir. Different forms were used for each according to specifications by the Office of Indian Affairs. The form established the right of the claimant to the benefits of the veteran. The application was originally enclosed in a wrapper, which was used to summarize the contents. Notations on the wrapper include application number, date, name, name of company commander and Indian Nation, dates of service, whether or not the name was found on the rolls by the Treasury Department auditor, the number of the warrant that was issued and the date, and on the back, a volume and page reference. The volume and page numbers on the wrappers refer to books such as the "Choctaw" volume, or volume "1," as yet not located. The related bounty application records in Record Group 75, Records of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, do not correspond to these references. The actual warrants are arranged by the act and the number of acres and warrant number, and they are filed with the General Land Office records in Record Group 49. Most of the envelopes also contain a slip of paper that has written on it the warrant number and the number of acres. Other occasional enclosures include letters of transmittal from the commissioner of Indian affairs to the commissioner of pensions and affidavits from the Office of the Third Auditor saying that a particular name was or was not found on the rolls. Tribes represented by the veterans include primarily the Five Civilized Tribes: Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, and Seminole. There are also a large number of other tribes included, such as the Seneca, Tonawanda, Shawnee, Delaware, Onandaga, Menominee, Oneida, Tuscarora, Green Bay, and Stockbridge. There are a few Pueblo, New Mexico (Jicarilla Apache), Yankton, and Pottowatomie. The periods of service include the War of 1812, the 1818 Seminole War, the 1836 Florida War, and the Cherokee Removal. Genealogical information on the application includes the name of the veteran (usually his Indian name); his age or death date; his wife's name and age; sometimes the marriage date and place; the names, ages, and places of birth of surviving children; the Indian tribe or nation; the town of residence; and the names and ages of witnesses and guardians. Indexes and Abstracts Relating to the Applications The related records in Record Group 75 include an index (entry 544 in Preliminary Inventory No. 163, "Index to abstract list of Indian applicants for military bounty lands") giving names of both veterans and heirs in alphabetical order. Other information in the index includes the tribal affiliation, a reference to "Book A" and page, and an abbreviation for "Warrant Issued." Book A (entry 545, "Abstract list of Indian applicants for military bounty lands") is a list of Indian applicants for military bounty land under the act of March 3, 1855, showing the name, tribe, service and length thereof, names of officers under whom service is claimed, date of the completion of papers sent, name and post office address of agent or representative, date of receipt at Office of Indian Affairs, date when sent to the Pension Office, date of warrant, number of warrant, when and (if to another than the person who sent the application) to whom sent, to whom transferred, date of transfer, and the consideration paid therefore. There is also a Book B, with the same type of information, but no index for it.

I have served for many years as tribal historian and federal recognition officer. So I can tell you that the ability to speak a unique language is not a requirement but can be used to fulfill the cultural continuity requirement. I would also not assume that every state recognized tribe is a fraud and that the only "real" tribes are federal ones. My tribe is state recognized. We are in the process of status clarification with the federal government. I was told by one of the historians at the BIA that our people had one of the easiest paths to federal recognition of any of the remaining unrecognized tribes and that it was just a matter of putting the documents together. Does this mean every state tribe is legitimate? Of course not. But don't paint them all with one brush. There are many tribes, particularly in the southeast, that remain in tribal communities, that govern themselves through the churches they established when their traditional religion was outlawed. I personally can document my tribe from first contact. And I can demonstrate that ever single member is descended either from a soldier who fought in a company in the Revolutionary War that was identified as a PeeDee Indian company or from someone who lived in the communities with them. Most of our people descend from more than one of those soldiers. I personally descend from four of them. When the Catawba had their federal recognition restored in the 1990s, suddenly federal Indians who had denounced them as not real Indians suddenly accepted them as such. And Chief Blue, to his credit, told them they were lap dogs to the BIA for treating the Catawba as something less than a tribe until the federal government said they were. We are not Indians at the whim of the U.S. government, and we are a tribe whether they recognize us or not. We seek recognition because of the benefits it could bring to the quality of life of our people, not because it will make us Indian. The Creator already did that. .....stepping off my soapbox now....... Michelle In a message dated 08/09/08 11:53:00 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more ignorant than federal officials, or won't seek further information from creditable individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money in some way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present or future finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion as well. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > Leon, > I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do know > that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think there is > something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 or more years. > There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists criteria > for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. > > So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is federally > recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be > legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear that the problem with > that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state > bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials do not > know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does not mean > anything special.. my view. > > Richard B. >

Isn't that a little over assuming the state officials are much more ignorant than federal officials, or won't seek further information from creditable individuals? Everything can be traced back to some kind of money in some way....either having to give or to keep from taking....but present or future finances are always involved. This is an observation and opinion as well. TT ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > Leon, > I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do know > that > you can add speaking their unique language. And I think there is > something > about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 or more years. > There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists criteria > for > recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. > > So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is federally > recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be > legitimate > in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear that the problem with > that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state > bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials do not > know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does not mean > anything special.. my view. > > Richard B. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:26 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > > >> It is my understanding that when a tribe goes through the Federal >> recognition process with the B.I.A., they must prove that the majority of >> the tribe descends from Indian ancestors that were in a established >> community, that had political, social, cultural, and marriage ties to >> each >> other, and that the band must have established guidelines for membership >> requirements, and even such things as a break in leadership of the tribe >> can be a stumbling block in getting recognition, Once the tribe is given >> federal recognition the tribal roll is closed, and membership is >> generally >> only open to the direct descendants of people already listed on the roll. >> since some tribes such as the Mashantucket Pequot by passed the B.I.A. >> process their genealogies, political, social, cultural, and marriage ties >> did not come under any scrutiny >> >> >> --- On Thu, 8/7/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 11:26 AM >>> Obviously, the Poarch Creeks can not let every Tom, Dick or >>> Harry join the >>> tribe, because it could soon become anything BUT an >>> authentic Native American >>> organization. However ... >>> >>> I do think it is ironic that most Southeastern Creek >>> families spent 180 >>> years trying to hide their Native American heritage and >>> culture, and now many >>> people are desperately trying to proof Creek descent. >>> >>> Until very late in their lives, any time we asked my >>> grandparents about >>> their Indian heritage, my grandmother would snap back, >>> "I don't want to talk >>> about it. They treated us worse than the Coloreds." >>> Survival for Eastern >>> Creeks often mandated invisibility and/or intermarriage >>> with their European or >>> African neighbors. >>> >>> The fact is that when the Creeks were living as Creeks in >>> Creek communities, >>> membership in the community had nothing to do with race or >>> blood quantum. >>> For starters, the Creek Confederacy, or People of One Fire >>> was a political >>> alliance formed by the remnants of many provinces, that had >>> been decimated by >>> Spanish diseases & weapons, and then by >>> English-sponsored slave raids. People >>> speaking several languages and dialects came together and >>> chose Mvskoke as >>> their diplomatic and trade language.These different ethnic >>> groups looked >>> different and had varying cultural traditions. One of the >>> most powerful Creek >>> towns, Tuckabachee, had originally been a Shawnee town. >>> >>> Even prior to the formation of the Creek Confederacy, >>> there had been >>> substantial gene infusions. There is a lot of evidence >>> that Mesoamerican refugees >>> arrived from time to time in the Southeast and blended >>> their genes and >>> culture with the Muskogeans. There is some evidence of >>> small bands of Northern >>> Europeans being absorbed into the Muskogean gene pool >>> 1000-2000 years ago. >>> Thousands of Muskogean women were ravaged by conquistadors >>> in the 1500s and 1600s. >>> There are historical records of Moors, Sephardic Jews and >>> Portuguese men >>> escaping Spanish expeditions and colonies to join the >>> Muskogeans. By 1700 AD, >>> many, if not most, Creeks carried some European and/or >>> African genes. The >>> reason was that mixed-blood Creeks were far more likely to >>> survive a European >>> plague than a full blood. There are many examples of pure >>> European men and >>> women being invited to become members of a tribal town in >>> the 1700s. Several >>> rose to positions of leadership. Their fellow Creeks >>> considered them Creeks. >>> >>> So when one talks about a "full-blooded" Creek or >>> Cherokee in the 1800s, we >>> are not talking about them being the same people, >>> genetically, as the >>> indigenous people first met by the de Soto Expedition. >>> They were merely mixed-gene >>> members of a Creek tribal town, when the federal government >>> first began >>> conducting censuses of Native Americans. >>> >>> Richard T. >>> >>> >>> >>> **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and >>> fits in your budget? >>> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >>> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >>> ) >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I must agree here. For over 4 decades I have searched for answers, for proof of my NA heritage. My grandmother and her family told us that her own mother was full blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side knew the truth but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty little secret and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know who you are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of not having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain books, things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we are wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told I was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable and brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, the mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to that nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their ancestors of Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not 2 generations back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, it is heartbreaking and then to go to a site in hopes of finding some way to get past that brick wall only to be called a wannabee and made to feel stupid for looking for what you have found is wrong. Barb Sam Gipson wrote: > If I offend anyone for wanting to know the truth, over family stories, then > I guess I am a form of a Wantabee. Not intentional. I have English, > (Britain), Scotland, Ireland, and hopefully, NA. > If so, then so be it. If not, then so be it. > > Thank you, Sam > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:39 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > >

I understand the wannabee talk, but on this list there will be no putting anyone down. We are all searching, that is part of the purpose of this list. If you can't be nice to your brothers and sisters, then don't answer at all. So many people on this list contribute so much to the group, and then sometimes one miss spoken word hurts many, think about what you say and remember I am the grouch on this list!! Judy List Mom On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Kathie M. Donahue <[email protected]>wrote: > Once again, Michelle. Well said. > > K. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JMSchohn > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:08 AM > Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] On who is a wannabe > > > I have never considered someone with Indian ancestry and no tribal ties to > be a wannabe. When I think about wannabees, I think about the folks with a > "Cherokee Indian princess" great great grandmother or the boy scouts at pow > wows with not one drop of Indian blood but the finest regalia money can buy. > I think about New Agers who are "Indian in their heart," or even better, > "Indian in a previous life." > > As tribal historian and genealogist, I have met many people searching for > their heritage. There is a longing there to find out who they are and they > have little more to go on than whispered rumors in their own family. > Sometimes I can help them document who they are and sometimes not. Often, I > can point to traditions in their family that they didn't know where Indian, > or to physical features that reveal their ancestry. But those folks aren't > wannabees. Those folks are our lost cousins, and for those of us who are > fortunate enough to have always known who we are, our job is to help them > find their way home. > > Michelle > > In a message dated 08/09/08 12:44:56 Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > I must agree here. For over 4 decades I have searched for answers, for > proof of my NA heritage. My grandmother and her family told us that her > own mother was full blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side > knew the truth but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty > little secret and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know > who you are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of > not having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain > books, things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we > are wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't > prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as > black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told I > was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable and > brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also > condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, the > mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to that > nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their ancestors of > Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not 2 generations > back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, it is heartbreaking > and then to go to a site in hopes of finding some way to get past that > brick wall only to be called a wannabee and made to feel stupid for > looking for what you have found is wrong. > Barb > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Once again, Michelle. Well said. K. ----- Original Message ----- From: JMSchohn To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] On who is a wannabe I have never considered someone with Indian ancestry and no tribal ties to be a wannabe. When I think about wannabees, I think about the folks with a "Cherokee Indian princess" great great grandmother or the boy scouts at pow wows with not one drop of Indian blood but the finest regalia money can buy. I think about New Agers who are "Indian in their heart," or even better, "Indian in a previous life." As tribal historian and genealogist, I have met many people searching for their heritage. There is a longing there to find out who they are and they have little more to go on than whispered rumors in their own family. Sometimes I can help them document who they are and sometimes not. Often, I can point to traditions in their family that they didn't know where Indian, or to physical features that reveal their ancestry. But those folks aren't wannabees. Those folks are our lost cousins, and for those of us who are fortunate enough to have always known who we are, our job is to help them find their way home. Michelle In a message dated 08/09/08 12:44:56 Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I must agree here. For over 4 decades I have searched for answers, for proof of my NA heritage. My grandmother and her family told us that her own mother was full blooded "Indian". Even my uncle on my other side knew the truth but when I asked about it, it was as if it was a dirty little secret and the family kept it hushed. You on this group who know who you are, who your grandparents are have no idea of the torment of not having the proof to justify the pull of certain music, certain books, things that confirm your identity. We may be wannabees but we are wannabees for a reason. NA blood runs through my veins and I can't prove it with written documents. My grandmother has been listed as black and then white on census records but never Indian. I was told I was black Irish and to let it go. I think that as knowledgeable and brilliant as some of the contributors here are, they are also condescending and mean to those of us without "papers", the mutts, the mongrels who only want for ourselves and our children a link to that nation of our elders. It is sad when one can trace their ancestors of Irish or English ancestry back to the 900's AD but not 2 generations back to our Native American ties. It is beyond sad, it is heartbreaking and then to go to a site in hopes of finding some way to get past that brick wall only to be called a wannabee and made to feel stupid for looking for what you have found is wrong. Barb ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If I sent the Lost Cherokee, to the wrong person, then I apologize. I will not buy a membership to a NA Group. That is not right. I do not expect anything in return, for wanting to know if I have NA blood in my veins. It would be an Honor, to me at least. But, NO to buying a card. If I offend anyone for wanting to know the truth, over family stories, then I guess I am a form of a Wantabee. Not intentional. I have English, (Britain), Scotland, Ireland, and hopefully, NA. If so, then so be it. If not, then so be it. Thank you, Sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > Leon, > I may have used that term wannabe, it is a favorite of mine. Your > meanings > are not how I uses it,... for me it is the vast groups who (are not Inds > or > even percentages of). The Wanna be groups are significanly expanding in > my > hunting grounds (MO) , they conduct pow wows, create crafts (with no > regard > or knowing of traditions to anyone/thing...) , enroll "tribal" members > for > a fee.., and besides that are just generally offensive. > > In referring to the Wanna beeesssss, the term "Culture Vulture" (I have > heard ..) is appropriate. Used to hear them also called "Cedars" (.. > inside they have a red heart, but they are white on the outside...). They > have no problem with dancing in their ("Tandy") regalia at their (phony > pows..). Deliver me from dedicated people!!!! > Did I mention they have "Chiefs..." ? > > Richard T. did not post this,.. it is Richard B. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas > > >> We must keep in mind that the term wannabe is a negative word that is >> often used by Native americans that have obtained Federal recognition, to >> describe anyone that is of indian descent who does not have Federal >> recognition or a C.D.I.B. card. >> THe federally Recognized Cherokee bands, view any state recognized >> cherokee band as being wannabe/phony, the Creek Bands who have Federal >> recognition have the same viewpoint towards any state recognized group. >> >> >> --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Sam Gipson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> From: Sam Gipson <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>> forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 2:41 PM >>> Thanks Richard B, >>> No the tribe is not State or Federally listed on the rolls. >>> May be one you can buy a membership into. >>> Look up Lost Cherokee Tribe, Arkansas and Missouri. >>> >>> I have some errands to run and will find the site for you >>> to check out. >>> >>> Tks, Sam I know they do not make and sell NA jewelry. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "csmoke" <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:21 PM >>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>> forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas,Louisiana and Texas >>> >>> >>> > Sam, >>> > I did not think they are recognized, but I do not have >>> a need to know on >>> > that one. >>> > >>> > There were some very early Cherokees settled vicinity >>> of Dover... (I'm >>> > getting a vision..)...:o) a significant school or >>> church situation. This >>> > is central to the area that John Jolly (chief of the >>> Old Settlers) 1828/29 >>> > , >>> > was located (he maybe my connection, plus where Sam >>> Huston "holed up" >>> > before going on to his fame in TX ) and due south of >>> there on the Arkansas >>> > River is a large population of Cheroks and a very old >>> Cherokee cemetery on >>> > the bluffs above the river. >>> > By the way, these places are getting in the >>> neighborhood of where my >>> > "pioneers" (Thomas Clark from TN in 1853/or >>> 54) began,... in extreme >>> > southwest Newton County , AR. Am probably related to >>> Merle Haggard, he >>> > claims to be from same place. Everybody (!!) is cuzn >>> there. There are >>> > some >>> > folks that area who quit talking to me about genealogy >>> (their ancestors >>> > murdered my gggrandfather Thomas Clark, spring 1863). >>> As I took apart the >>> > last threads of information,... I had it and they just >>> "shut up". >>> > >>> > If anyone encounters some research on a battle/attack >>> (1st week of >>> > February >>> > , 1863) involving 7 members of the union 1st AR CAV , >>> at Mulberry Springs, >>> > AR, I surely would be interested. It was an attack on >>> a log "compound" >>> > against 35 Mankins or Manican Indians. I have looked >>> some and believe >>> > these Manikin/Mankins are originally from/part of the >>> Powhatans in easter >>> > Virginia ??). The inhabitants of the compound were >>> paid partisans , hired >>> > by Peter Mankins. I have read the military record, >>> but hope there is more >>> > info "out there". >>> > >>> > Richard B. >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Sam Gipson" >>> <[email protected]> >>> > To: <[email protected]> >>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:52 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>> > forancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and >>> Texas >>> > >>> > >>> >> Thanks Richard B., >>> >> He is legit. His Uncle and Aunt are on the rolls >>> and so was his grand >>> >> parents and parents. >>> >> His brother also. >>> >> I understand the situation on the wanta bees. >>> >> But, it is listed as the Lost Cherokee Nation, >>> with no benefits, or >>> >> Federal >>> >> recognition. >>> >> Arkansas and Missouri. >>> >> The main office use to be in Clinton, Ark. and has >>> now moved to Dover, >>> >> Ark. >>> >> if I am not mistaken. >>> >> Thank you, my friend. >>> >> >>> >> Sam >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> From: "csmoke" >>> <[email protected]> >>> >> To: <[email protected]> >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 7:56 PM >>> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for >>> >> ancestorsalwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and >>> Texas >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> Sam, >>> >>> Not to disappoint, but there are many (many) >>> wannabe fraudlent groups in >>> >>> the >>> >>> area you mention. Before you recognize them, >>> you might want to find a >>> >>> site >>> >>> that lists all the federally recognized tribes >>> and see if the group you >>> >>> mention is on the list. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have "bumped" into some of these >>> people and it is disturbing to see >>> >>> them >>> >>> using "enrollement cards" with >>> numbers of their own manufacture. Part >>> >>> of >>> >>> the issue for me ( and others..) is they refer >>> to themselves as Cherokee >>> >>> tribe and represent craft work (with logos..) >>> as authentic native >>> >>> american. >>> >>> To become one of them, the usually needed >>> genealogy is a $20 /or check >>> >>> made >>> >>> out to them. I have not been arround any of >>> them for a while (they got >>> >>> to >>> >>> know me..) , but I suspect they are still >>> getting a high level of >>> >>> membership >>> >>> enrollment. Most of their starting dialog >>> with strangers is" we are >>> >>> descended from Inds who jumped off the >>> boats,.. my ancestors escaped >>> >>> from >>> >>> the trail of tears.." (thats why we are >>> here, etc..) Yuck. >>> >>> >>> >>> Richard B. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Sam Gipson" >>> <[email protected]> >>> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:09 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking for >>> ancestors >>> >>> alwayscheckoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Richard B, >>> >>>> I believe the Cherokee's in Ark. and >>> Missouri, are referred to as the >>> >>>> Lost >>> >>>> Cherokee Tribe. A friend has his card, >>> Lost Cherokee Tribe. (Arkansas >>> >>>> and >>> >>>> Missouri) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Thanks, Sam >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: "csmoke" >>> <[email protected]> >>> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:29 PM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>> for ancestors always >>> >>>> checkoutArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> Richard T., when cooking the Opossom, >>> I guess my ggrandmother forgot >>> >>>>> to >>> >>>>> "parboil" and went straight >>> to the oven. Grease/oil level was half up >>> >>>>> in >>> >>>>> the baking pan, but I think they used >>> to dip their homemade bread in >>> >>>>> that. >>> >>>>> That was one of the few foods I tried >>> and did not acquire a taste for. >>> >>>>> (too >>> >>>>> much oil..). How do you get those >>> roadkills to eat the >>> >>>>> buttermilk/etc??? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> In locations for natives,.. remember >>> that about 1817 was a treaty for >>> >>>>> the >>> >>>>> Cherokees (referred to as Old >>> Settlers) to self emigrate to their >>> >>>>> Reservation in north central Arkansas. >>> (they stayed there until about >>> >>>>> 1830) >>> >>>>> when the reservation was dissolved in >>> another treaty and the Old >>> >>>>> Settlers >>> >>>>> went to Ind Territory. 1817 look for >>> "passport" allowing Inds >>> >>>>> (reds...:o) >>> >>>>> to travel. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Sam Huston , the Texican, was very >>> hooked to the Cherokees, he was >>> >>>>> known >>> >>>>> as >>> >>>>> "The Raven" & book title >>> same name , .. in his biography you see >>> >>>>> much. >>> >>>>> (one of my family names chief (John >>> Jolly) , adopted him, but others >>> >>>>> claim >>> >>>>> not the same person. Neither of us >>> can "proove" yes/no , but I have >>> >>>>> some >>> >>>>> paper trial for that!! >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Also, along with your good >>> information, you did not mention 1811 >>> >>>>> earthquake >>> >>>>> SE Missouri "bootheel" , >>> Cherokee living there with chief "Bowl" , >>> >>>>> fled >>> >>>>> to >>> >>>>> TX , they considered the ground shake >>> a bad medicine message or >>> >>>>> something. >>> >>>>> Quiz.. : Feds made 40 treaties with >>> the Cherokee,.. how many of the >>> >>>>> treaty >>> >>>>> conditions were kept by this govt ?? >>> (tune in this theatre next week >>> >>>>> for >>> >>>>> the answer..)!! >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Richard B. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>>> From: <[email protected]> >>> >>>>> To: >>> <[email protected]> >>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:22 >>> PM >>> >>>>> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] In looking >>> for ancestors always check >>> >>>>> outArkansas, Louisiana and Texas >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> The mention about the new museum >>> In Fort Smith, AK reminded of >>> >>>>>> something >>> >>>>>> I >>> >>>>>> discovered in my research in the >>> past. I found that thousands and >>> >>>>>> thousands >>> >>>>>> of Creeks and Cherokees went west >>> prior to the Trail of Tears in the >>> >>>>>> late >>> >>>>>> 1830s. Very few went initially to >>> Oklahoma because it was claimed by >>> >>>>>> other >>> >>>>>> tribes. Cherokees and Upper >>> Creeks often went to Arkansas, sometimes >>> >>>>>> to >>> >>>>>> Missouri. >>> >>>>>> Lower Creeks, Alabamas, and >>> Koasati's went to Louisiana, Texas and >>> >>>>>> Mexico - >>> >>>>>> perhaps also to the southern tip >>> of Arkansas. Some Cherokees went >>> >>>>>> to >>> >>>>>> Texas >>> >>>>>> and then to Mexico. Most >>> Cherokees were chased out of Texas after >>> >>>>>> it >>> >>>>>> became a >>> >>>>>> Republic. However, a considerable >>> number of Alabamas, Koasati's and >>> >>>>>> Lower >>> >>>>>> Creeks were allowed to stay in >>> Texas because they had fought along >>> >>>>>> side >>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>>>> Texans against the Mexicans. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> As I mentioned last week, also >>> look for Friendly "Georgia" Creeks in >>> >>>>>> Texas. >>> >>>>>> The Friendly (Hitchiti-speaking) >>> Creeks were promised that they >>> >>>>>> could >>> >>>>>> keep >>> >>>>>> their farms in Georgia and South >>> Carolina, but many were either >>> >>>>>> illegally >>> >>>>>> dispossessed or felt insecure in >>> an anti-Indian political >>> >>>>>> environment. >>> >>>>>> The >>> >>>>>> Friendly Creeks carried with them >>> a hybrid culture that was a >>> >>>>>> mixture >>> >>>>>> of >>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>>>> Mound-Builders and Scottish >>> frontiersmen. Many also has aspirations >>> >>>>>> of >>> >>>>>> being >>> >>>>>> planters or ranchers in Texas. >>> Their descendants tended to blend in >>> >>>>>> with >>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>>>> Texans since Creeks are not that >>> different in appearance from >>> >>>>>> Mexican >>> >>>>>> Mestizos. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Also, when planning to serve >>> possum for prominent guests or wedding >>> >>>>>> parties, >>> >>>>>> be sure and feed the possum >>> cornbread and buttermilk for a couple of >>> >>>>>> weeks >>> >>>>>> before dressing them. Parboiling >>> the possum for awhile will get rid >>> >>>>>> of >>> >>>>>> the >>> >>>>>> excess fat created by the >>> cornbread and buttermilk. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> Richard T. >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> **************Looking for a car >>> that's sporty, fun and fits in your >>> >>>>>> budget? >>> >>>>>> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >>> >>>>>> >>> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >>> >>>>>> ) >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, >>> please send an email to >>> >>>>>> >>> [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' >>> >>>>>> without >>> >>>>>> the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the message >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please >>> send an email to >>> >>>>> [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> >>>>> without >>> >>>>> the quotes in the subject and the body >>> of the message >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>> >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send >>> an email to >>> >>>> [email protected] with >>> the word 'unsubscribe' >>> >>>> without >>> >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of >>> the message >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >>> email to >>> >>> [email protected] with the >>> word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------- >>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> to >>> >> [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without >>> >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the >>> message >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------- >>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> > [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without >>> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word >>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think I have also read of the claim, Richard T. made, plus the one you mention, and I think that if you research you will find another or two. It was not good considering later events, but someone else may have stepped in place of the gap. Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek reserves >i have read that the Cherokee Junaluska was said to have saved Andrew >Jackson's life at the battle of Horseshoe Bend or that is what is the >belief among members of the Eastern band of Cherokees > > > --- On Wed, 8/6/08, csmoke <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: csmoke <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek reserves >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 11:24 PM >> Yes, I got that part , but the bounty lands I have seen >> record of just >> specified for military. (nothing I saw mentioned that this >> land or reserve >> "was for what we took away before" and this is a >> token replacement... >> >> One bounty record that I did see was for the widow of >> "Timpoochee" a.k.a. >> english name John Barnard. This bounty was for >> "Scar-Chee", widow of >> Timpoochee. He was in the (forgive my historical..) >> "Creek Wars" of >> 1812-14, and she said he died summer of 1835. I recall >> there was more Creek >> war (1835??) and 36. Anyway , what I saw was the >> application in the early >> '1850s'. Would sure like to know if he died in >> battle... >> >> Timpoochee , I may be related to and have researched him >> much. He was 1/2 >> english and mother full Euchee. I found another Euchee >> woman in Creek >> County, OK, in family history book , said that Timpoochee >> was her >> ggrandfather and "fire chief " "back east >> before the removals. Timpoochee >> was born about 1777 , son of englishman Timothy Barnard , >> who set up trade >> post Flint River , GA, (on Euchee land). Timpoochee led >> 100 Euchee at the >> battle of Horshoe Bend (against the Redsticks..????) and >> saved the man >> whoose face is printed on the american $20 bill (currently) >> and responsible >> for taking a large part getting the natives removed from >> the east to the >> west. Yuck. >> >> Richard B. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:47 PM >> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek reserves >> >> >> > Hey Richard B. >> > >> > Yes, that is what I was saying, these were reserves >> granted to Friendly >> > Creeks for service in the Revolutionary War, Cherokee >> Wars and War of >> > 1812. My >> > ancestors received a 2000 acre reserve for being >> scouts in the wars >> > against >> > the Cherokees and against the British. The >> reparations were for farms >> > taken >> > illegally because of a law enacted by Georgia, that no >> Indian could own >> > land. >> > The Friendly Creeks were theoretically State >> Citizens and therefore not >> > subject to removal to Alabama, Florida or Oklahoma. >> Without warning, a >> > troop >> > of militia or a sheriff's posse' would show >> up at a Friendly Creek's farm >> > or >> > plantation. The legal occupants would be evicted >> without any >> > compensation >> > whatsoever, and marched at gun point to the nearest >> state line. The >> > county >> > would then auction off the land to the highest >> bidder. Generally, these >> > dastardly acts were instigated by greedy planters who >> wanted cheap land >> > with which >> > to expand their plantations - or county >> commissioners, who needed to >> > supplement their tax receipts. >> > >> > Richard T. >> > >> > >> > >> > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun >> and fits in your >> > budget? >> > Read reviews on AOL Autos. >> > >> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >> >> > ) >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Leon, I do not know all the fed reqirement for being recognized, but do know that you can add speaking their unique language. And I think there is something about all these tests met and being in existence for 200 or more years. There is a "native site" (commanchelodge..) that I think lists criteria for recognition, plus a listing of all the recognized tribes. So, I think you could go to the site I mentioned and see who is federally recognized. There are state (only) recognized groups (who may be legitimate in many ways and have a good heart...) , but I hear that the problem with that is a " local" chief or whatever can blow a smoke at the state bureaucrats...throw in some genealogy/etc, and the state officials do not know nothing from nothing.... it looks ok, recognize them. Does not mean anything special.. my view. Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership > It is my understanding that when a tribe goes through the Federal > recognition process with the B.I.A., they must prove that the majority of > the tribe descends from Indian ancestors that were in a established > community, that had political, social, cultural, and marriage ties to each > other, and that the band must have established guidelines for membership > requirements, and even such things as a break in leadership of the tribe > can be a stumbling block in getting recognition, Once the tribe is given > federal recognition the tribal roll is closed, and membership is generally > only open to the direct descendants of people already listed on the roll. > since some tribes such as the Mashantucket Pequot by passed the B.I.A. > process their genealogies, political, social, cultural, and marriage ties > did not come under any scrutiny > > > --- On Thu, 8/7/08, [email protected] <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] The Irony of Current Creek Membership >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 11:26 AM >> Obviously, the Poarch Creeks can not let every Tom, Dick or >> Harry join the >> tribe, because it could soon become anything BUT an >> authentic Native American >> organization. However ... >> >> I do think it is ironic that most Southeastern Creek >> families spent 180 >> years trying to hide their Native American heritage and >> culture, and now many >> people are desperately trying to proof Creek descent. >> >> Until very late in their lives, any time we asked my >> grandparents about >> their Indian heritage, my grandmother would snap back, >> "I don't want to talk >> about it. They treated us worse than the Coloreds." >> Survival for Eastern >> Creeks often mandated invisibility and/or intermarriage >> with their European or >> African neighbors. >> >> The fact is that when the Creeks were living as Creeks in >> Creek communities, >> membership in the community had nothing to do with race or >> blood quantum. >> For starters, the Creek Confederacy, or People of One Fire >> was a political >> alliance formed by the remnants of many provinces, that had >> been decimated by >> Spanish diseases & weapons, and then by >> English-sponsored slave raids. People >> speaking several languages and dialects came together and >> chose Mvskoke as >> their diplomatic and trade language.These different ethnic >> groups looked >> different and had varying cultural traditions. One of the >> most powerful Creek >> towns, Tuckabachee, had originally been a Shawnee town. >> >> Even prior to the formation of the Creek Confederacy, >> there had been >> substantial gene infusions. There is a lot of evidence >> that Mesoamerican refugees >> arrived from time to time in the Southeast and blended >> their genes and >> culture with the Muskogeans. There is some evidence of >> small bands of Northern >> Europeans being absorbed into the Muskogean gene pool >> 1000-2000 years ago. >> Thousands of Muskogean women were ravaged by conquistadors >> in the 1500s and 1600s. >> There are historical records of Moors, Sephardic Jews and >> Portuguese men >> escaping Spanish expeditions and colonies to join the >> Muskogeans. By 1700 AD, >> many, if not most, Creeks carried some European and/or >> African genes. The >> reason was that mixed-blood Creeks were far more likely to >> survive a European >> plague than a full blood. There are many examples of pure >> European men and >> women being invited to become members of a tribal town in >> the 1700s. Several >> rose to positions of leadership. Their fellow Creeks >> considered them Creeks. >> >> So when one talks about a "full-blooded" Creek or >> Cherokee in the 1800s, we >> are not talking about them being the same people, >> genetically, as the >> indigenous people first met by the de Soto Expedition. >> They were merely mixed-gene >> members of a Creek tribal town, when the federal government >> first began >> conducting censuses of Native Americans. >> >> Richard T. >> >> >> >> **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and >> fits in your budget? >> Read reviews on AOL Autos. >> (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 >> ) >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >