How do I know about the Russia Mafia being in Cherokee and Asheville? Remember I had a pretty prominent position in Asheville and still have friends there, who are in the know. Actually, I was a highly respected professional until the year 2000 when a certain political change took place! LOL The last time I was in Asheville (last November) a close friend point blank told me that the Russians are taking over Asheville and already run Cherokee from behind the scenes. Most of his appraisals recently were for Russian Nationals moving to Western North Carolina. Many moons ago, before I even moved to Asheville, I was a consultant to the Cherokee Housing Authority and through the years have made friends on the Qualla Boundary. Last summer I decided to go hiking on my birthday, and then stop by afterward to visit with old Cherokee friends, who made the best barbecue around. Their old restaurant had been torn down and replaced with a fancy new one in a shopping center. Before eating, I walked around the strip shopping area, looking for a birthday gift for my sister - who was born in late August. Every single store I visited was staffed and managed by Slavic personnel. I finally stopped a Cherokee lady on the street, and told her I was Creek. Where are the Cherokees? She said that they don't work in town anymore. A few worked at the casino, but there were getting to be less and less. Of course, the Qualla Arts Gallery was staffed by Cherokees, but that was it. I bought a gift for my sister there, since there stuff were the only "real" looking things in town. I then drove back the barbecue restaurant, I walked in and didn't see a Native American in the place - either eating or working. Two Scandinavian looking gals (college age) were the hostesses. I asked them in English, if they were Swedish (Jag taler svenska) They said they were college students from "Southern" Russia. I thought that was strange since the southern Russians tend to look Middle Eastern. My waitress was from Brazil. I asked her what had happened to all my Cherokee friends that had worked there for two decades. She said that when the Russians bought the restaurant three years ago, all the Cherokees had been fired. In fact, she was only person they kept. The manager was from Poland. All the other employees were from Russia, Ukraine or Poland. She said that was pretty much the situation in all the stores and restaurants. She also was on a student visa, but had never attended college. The Russian owner got her card renewed each year. A little later, I glanced back into the kitchen and did see a Cherokee teenager working! He was washing dishes. The barbecue was as great as ever. A free ice cream came with the meal. It was served by the blond girls from "Southern Russia." As I was walking up to the ice cream counter, I heard them speaking a dialect of Finnish. I said about the only words I remembered in Finish from my days of working in Sweden - for "hello." That is absolutely all I said, other than I would like two scoops of butter pecan ice cream in English. They freaked out. One raced back to the kitchen while the other nervously scooped my ice cream order. Within a minute or so, a big, black limousine roared up to the front door of the restaurant. A big, puffy-faced, evil-looking Russian got out. He peeked in the door and said something to the Russian girls or wherever they were really from. Moments later, three Cherokee Tribal Police cruisers and a SWAT squad SUV flew into the parking lot, lights flashing. The four police officers chatted briefly with Russian, looked at me through the windows and went in. They all sat at the table next to me. None of the officers looked Indian. This was a big change. Always before, Cherokee police were the best of the best Cherokee warriors - and were highly respected. In fact, I would swear that one of the officers was from the Baltic countries himself. He spoke proper English, but didn't have a Southern Mountain accent. In a menacing tone, the SWAT officer asked me what I was doing in Cherokee? "Duh-h-h-h-h, eating barbecue and ice cream." They grilled me for several more minutes about my purposes on the rez, where I lived, my drivers licence, did I have criminal record, etc. until I got fed up and flashed them my Creek tribal membership card. They immediately became more polite. They then told me to leave the reservation as soon as I finished my meal. They never said one word about what I had done wrong. After telling with a friend in federal law enforcement about the incident, we both decided that everybody thought I was an INS undercover agent, because I was alone and look very athletic - wear my hair very short in the summer. I didn't leave immediately. I went straight to the home of an old Cherokee friend, who had managed the Penny's store in Asheville, before retiring back on the rez. I told him how I was treated. He wept as he explained how the Russian Mafia had taken over at Qualla. A few Cherokees were getting rich, politicians were getting paid off, and the rest of the people were basically welfare Injuns, getting by with checks from the casino profits paid to the tribe. Very few of the young people wanted to make crafts anymore, and the educated ones were being forced to leave Qualla to get a job, unless they were teachers. Not going back to Cherokee any time soon. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

I know that I am getting off the subject of this thread but, I wanted to voice my opinion on the Cherokee, NC scenario. My "favorite" thing when we go there, is to watch the "authentic Cherokees" in their Cherokee regalia complete right down to the genuine war bonnets dancing beside their teepees (of course) with their tip jar placed closeby. The last time we were there, one tourist actually was upset because she was worrying about them having to live on the street in those teepees without any conveniences and couldn't be convinced that they didn't. I guess if the tourists are gullible enough to swallow it, go for it! Oh, well, enough said, and I won't bring it up again! JR **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

The menu sounds delicious. Probably dates to the early 1800s, when American Indians began cooking with wheat flour. I have found several Spanish chronicles that suggest that the Southeastern Natives made beverages out of grapes, plums, blackberries, etc, - but evidently did not intentionally make wine - but maybe they did - who knows. I do know that jars have been found with long spouts, necks or "radiator fins" which seemed to have been used to set beverages in springs for cooling. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

Scuppernong Pie Recipe 3-4 cups scuppernong native grapes Water 3 T butter 2/3 cup sugar 2 T cornstarch 1 T or more Cinnamon or Apple Pie Spice Pastry for 2-crust pie Preheat oven to 300 degrees F. Wash scuppernongs. Use 2 medium-sized enamel sauce pans; squeeze pulp into one and use other for hulls. Cover hulls with water and cook until tender, drain. Cook pulp until soft enough to run through sieve to remove seeds. Add to hulls. Mix sugar and cornstarch. Add scuppernong mixture and dot with butter. Sprinkle with spice as desired. Pour into pastry-lined pie pan, cover with strips of pastry. Bake until brown. Serves 6-8. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

LEon, thanks for the tidbit. Now maybe we can clear the confusion. I have asked Richard to elaborate as I am interested in what is going on in NC. I may never be able to stand side by side with my brothers adn sisters and be accepted Cherokee or Creek, but I have no doubts I am one. My family was still on the reservatoin land well after 1810 and that I know for a fact. Cousins are still there today, but we have lost the relationship. All we know is we were related to Will West LONG, well known historian. I believe my great ggg grandmother was a WEST married to a LONG, her name Delilah or Delila is all I have. We have pictures of the WESTs and believe it to be her parents. From there on it gets very foggy as the men chose for their wifes' to hide their ancestry. They were not allowed to show in town as they did not speak English, only Cherokee. LIes were made up they spoke Dutch only and they were told not to speak in front of strangers. They left NC for upper GA, living in Ivy LOg, a well known mixed Cherokee community. There, my line may have taken up residence with a Cherokee man as a 2nd wife. HIs family well documented but no mention in the Dawes about a 2nd family. This is the story on almost every line marrying into my family, all simliar mixed families, hiding and avoiding being recorded as Cherokee. Does anyone know what "Big Creek" might mean in Cherokee? that is the name our ancestor used abt 1810. He was on the E Cherokee rolls but would not give his family the info. they needed to establish it. He died without telling his children his real indian name so they could apply. They did apply, were rejected as not enough proof. With that info. I am sure they would have been on the Dawes. I have looked up Big Creek and believe it's similiar to Equa Ni la dv yi Long would be GA Nv Hi Dv I can not find those on rolls, but not sure how they are pronounced and how an English speaker would write them. Anyone who has ideas? while we are talking about language, well I am at least. Does anyone have any idea if the Cherokee has trouble prouncing certain syllables? I had trouble with "L" and "TH" "S" as did my children. thanks, Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon Beard" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail ofTears > Richard, > As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee > reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives > and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns > I'm stunned by your comments. > I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, > the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if the > leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their > business or close. > Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and if > not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a > Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. > Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of > Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with > cherokee women. > The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, some > tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and > party until the money is gone. > I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food > stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly > seasonal. > So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before the > Casino arrived in town. > > --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail >> of Tears >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM >> Richard, >> >> As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted >> to prove >> that a local, ego driven "historian" was >> reqriting history of teh >> area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line >> it is hard to >> believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here >> trying to follow >> their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. >> >> Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are >> being >> mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy >> local politicians >> for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. >> >> It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. >> >> Steve >> >> >> At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >> >> >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family >> memory of a so-called >> >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional >> comment. >> > >> >If one read's the history books, you learn that >> Creek-Cherokee relations >> >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had >> allowed over >> >3000 Creeks to >> >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was >> their land anyway two >> >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders >> did not have to show >> >this kindness. >> > >> >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon >> arrival in Oklahoma >> >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to >> clash and blood was >> >shed. >> > >> >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought >> together as one unit in >> >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of >> Pine Log, GA in >> >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of >> Carrolton, >> >GA second in >> >command. >> > >> >Since that time, it has become quite common for >> Oklahoma Creeks and >> >Cherokees to both be friends and families to >> intermarry. >> > >> >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the >> serious problems we >> >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern >> Band of Cherokees in >> >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) >> Caucasian >> >tourism development >> >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in >> the late >> >20th century in >> >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to >> tourists. This >> >concocted history was taught to a generation of >> students, who >> >now belief these >> >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian >> Mafia has >> >virtually taken >> >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very >> few >> >non-governmental jobs >> >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are >> the most menial one >> >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak >> Russian or >> >Polish when you go >> >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there >> have become dependent on >> >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. >> I can't imagine >> >what will >> >happen when the projected recession or depression this >> winter drastically >> >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no >> longer grow >> >their own food >> >or make crafts to sell to tourists. >> > >> >Richard T. >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release >> Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Richard, I am constantly amazed at your insight. I imagine living closer to NC reservations you have more resources to learn/study than some of who are removed. TEll us about the Polish and Russian influence. How did that happen? Casinos have become a "Mixed blessing". Excuse the "Blessing" as my word choice, I could not think of a better term. While providing monetary source, it has create a co-dependency as you mention and a lost of the old ways. It is happening all over the country. What I have noticed is that people then have MORE TIME to sit around and be bored and get into trouble (as well). I do not see the natives in my region who live on the reservation improving their homes with the money. I do see them driving really nice big rigs, buying goods they can not take care of (example are my horses). they could take caer of their things if they wanted too but some spend too much money on alcohol. I do not mean to sound prejudice but we all know it is a huge problem among our brothers/sisters. I have warned my own flesh and blood (Children) to stay away from it, we have a family weakness for it. Admitting that, recognizing it, and then reacting knowing is what we all must do. Remaining or becoming self sufficienct is going to become more and more necessasry during the trying depression. If people would take their bounty (if they have gardens) and plan now, dehydrate wtih the sun your produce, put it up for winter you will have a leg up. Don't throw away the extra zuchinni, dry zuchinni works well in sauces, soups, ect. I add it to stews, to pastas, many items it adds alot. Same with tomatoes, onion and more. You don't have to be an expert canner, you can dyhydrate many items. I think cucumbers are one item you can not dyhydrate but they make tasty pickles! <G> or salsas. Enough of the soapbox. I am anxious to hear about the russians & polish in NC, how they got there, how it all happened. thanks, Debbie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:54 AM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail of Tears > In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called > Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. > > If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations > were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over 3000 > Creeks to > take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two > generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to > show > this kindness. > > Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in > Oklahoma > - Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was > shed. > > The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit > in > the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in > command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, GA > second in > command. > > Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and > Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. > > I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we > Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees > in > recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian tourism > development > bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late 20th > century in > order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This > concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who now belief > these > things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has > virtually taken > over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few non-governmental > jobs > are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one > could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or Polish when > you go > in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent > on > quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine what > will > happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically > reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow their own > food > or make crafts to sell to tourists. > > Richard T. > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Richard, As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted to prove that a local, ego driven "historian" was reqriting history of teh area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line it is hard to believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here trying to follow their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are being mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy local politicians for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. Steve At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. > >If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over >3000 Creeks to >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to show >this kindness. > >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in Oklahoma >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was >shed. > >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit in >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, >GA second in >command. > >Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and >Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. > >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees in >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian >tourism development >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late >20th century in >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This >concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who >now belief these >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has >virtually taken >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few >non-governmental jobs >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or >Polish when you go >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent on >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine >what will >happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow >their own food >or make crafts to sell to tourists. > >Richard T. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM

Richard, As a person who has previously lived on the Cherokee reservation/Qualla boundary in the Birdtown community, and has relatives and friends who still live on the reservation or in the surrounding towns I'm stunned by your comments. I know nothing about a Russian Mafia who have overtaken the reservation, the shops on the reservation are often leased by non-cherokees, and if the leases are not renewed then the shopkeepers must either move their business or close. Most jobs on the reservation are filled by Cherokee tribal members, and if not a Cherokee tribal member, then a Indian from other tribes, or a Caucausian person, as preference are given to tribal members first. Some years ago some tribal Elders did complain about the number of Mexicans who had taken up residence on the reservation, and living with cherokee women. The per capita checks are distributed in June, and again in December, some tribal members use the money to improve their lives, while some drink and party until the money is gone. I know before the per capita checks many tribal members relied on food stamps, and commodity food from the government as work was mostly seasonal. So life on the reservation has improved compared to what it was before the Casino arrived in town. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Steve Sokol <[email protected]> wrote: > From: Steve Sokol <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Cherokee-Creek relations after the Trail of Tears > To: [email protected] > Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 11:50 AM > Richard, > > As you probably remember, we got to talking when I wanted > to prove > that a local, ego driven "historian" was > reqriting history of teh > area where SC, NC & GA meet. He is so far out of line > it is hard to > believe. It is really hurting the NA's around here > trying to follow > their roots. They are looking at the wrong tribe. > > Unless the Yucchi were Cherokee rather than Creek, they are > being > mislead by a "false prophet". Since you can buy > local politicians > for one meat & three lunch, a sham is easy to pull. > > It is quite destructive to those of you tracing ancestors. > > Steve > > > At 10:54 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote: > > >In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family > memory of a so-called > >Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional > comment. > > > >If one read's the history books, you learn that > Creek-Cherokee relations > >were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had > allowed over > >3000 Creeks to > >take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was > their land anyway two > >generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders > did not have to show > >this kindness. > > > >Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon > arrival in Oklahoma > >- Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to > clash and blood was > >shed. > > > >The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought > together as one unit in > >the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of > Pine Log, GA in > >command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of > Carrolton, > >GA second in > >command. > > > >Since that time, it has become quite common for > Oklahoma Creeks and > >Cherokees to both be friends and families to > intermarry. > > > >I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the > serious problems we > >Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern > Band of Cherokees in > >recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) > Caucasian > >tourism development > >bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in > the late > >20th century in > >order to create an image that they felt would appeal to > tourists. This > >concocted history was taught to a generation of > students, who > >now belief these > >things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian > Mafia has > >virtually taken > >over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very > few > >non-governmental jobs > >are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are > the most menial one > >could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak > Russian or > >Polish when you go > >in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there > have become dependent on > >quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. > I can't imagine > >what will > >happen when the projected recession or depression this > winter drastically > >reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no > longer grow > >their own food > >or make crafts to sell to tourists. > > > >Richard T. > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1612 - Release > Date: 8/14/2008 6:03 PM > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

In addition to Richard B.'s comment on the family memory of a so-called Cherokee land grab, I wanted to make an additional comment. If one read's the history books, you learn that Creek-Cherokee relations were generally good in Oklahoma. The Cherokees had allowed over 3000 Creeks to take refuge in NW Georgia - well, of course, it was their land anyway two generations before. Nevertheless, the Cherokee leaders did not have to show this kindness. Both tribes found themselves in similar situations upon arrival in Oklahoma - Pro-removal versus anti-removal forces continued to clash and blood was shed. The Cherokee and Creek Mounted Rifles usually fought together as one unit in the Civil War - with Cherokee Stand Watie formerly of Pine Log, GA in command, and Creek General Chilly McIntosh, formerly of Carrolton, GA second in command. Since that time, it has become quite common for Oklahoma Creeks and Cherokees to both be friends and families to intermarry. I have given a lot of thought to what is behind the serious problems we Eastern Creeks have been experiencing with the Eastern Band of Cherokees in recent years. Two sources come to mind ... (1) Caucasian tourism development bureaucrats and professors made up Cherokee history in the late 20th century in order to create an image that they felt would appeal to tourists. This concocted history was taught to a generation of students, who now belief these things to be ancient tribal traditions (2) The Russian Mafia has virtually taken over the North Carolina Cherokee Reservation. Very few non-governmental jobs are now held by Cherokees. Typically, these job are the most menial one could find. It is a real asset to be able to speak Russian or Polish when you go in a shop at Cherokee! LOL Many Cherokees there have become dependent on quarterly checks from the Harrah'a Casino profits. I can't imagine what will happen when the projected recession or depression this winter drastically reduced profits from the casino. Most Cherokees no longer grow their own food or make crafts to sell to tourists. Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

Hi. I'm interested in your George Bell. Can you email me in private? thanks, D ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:15 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek Nation was communally owned > In a message dated 8/14/2008 1:29:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > The story that has been passed down > through to us is that there was a land grab by the cherokees in > muskogee and as such ggggpa George Bell disowned them. Saying that he > would rather be white than cherokee. > > It would have been impossible for any tribe to do a land grab of another > tribe in Oklahoma prior to 1905, when the Indian nations were divided into > allotments. The tribe owned the land. Individual tribal members were > allowed to > use the land, but did not own it. However, under traditional Creek law, > the woman owned the property improvements. If your grandfather was > Cherokee, > and his wife was Creek, then their children would be considered Creek. > > What actually happened in reality was that whites settled in places like > Tulsa, Muskogee and Henrietta, without permission of the tribe. After > awhile, > the whites outnumbered the Creeks in these towns, and the whites took > over. > They ignored the laws of the Creek National Council - essentially > becoming > autonomous city states. Much of the lawlessness in the old Indian > Nations was > due to the problem of have predominantly white cities not being subject > to > anyone except U.S. Marshalls out of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Do you remember > the > great John Wayne movie, "True Grit?" > > Does that answer your question? > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

If I may add a comment to Richard T.'s excellent reply , .. the concept of "owning" the land by an individual Cherokee was just not thought of. It was a foreign concept (.. the white man's thinking..). Oklahoma, .. as soon as the alloted lands were assigned to the Cherokees,... the whites began immediately to devise methods to get the lands out of Cherokee ownership and into white ownership. There was quite a lot of allotment that went to minors and (orphan ) minors. Legals and power people would do things like get themselves appointed guardian/etc. of the minor's self and property. Somehow the land just seemed to change hands..:o) I have read the timming, but I think most of the land went out of Cherokee ownership in 20 yrs or less!! Besides John Wayne,.. Clint Eastwood (here I go quoting him again...:o) , worked as a U.S. Marshall from Ft. Smith , AR. Check the Eastwood movie ,"Hang em High". The movie is surprisingly connected and shows a good facimilty of the Ft. Smith. I just can't concieve of any Cherokee thinking as a "land grabber.." (somebody is feeding you a cup of strong black drink...:o) Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 2:15 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Creek Nation was communally owned > In a message dated 8/14/2008 1:29:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > The story that has been passed down > through to us is that there was a land grab by the cherokees in > muskogee and as such ggggpa George Bell disowned them. Saying that he > would rather be white than cherokee. > > It would have been impossible for any tribe to do a land grab of another > tribe in Oklahoma prior to 1905, when the Indian nations were divided into > allotments. The tribe owned the land. Individual tribal members were > allowed to > use the land, but did not own it. However, under traditional Creek law, > the woman owned the property improvements. If your grandfather was > Cherokee, > and his wife was Creek, then their children would be considered Creek. > > What actually happened in reality was that whites settled in places like > Tulsa, Muskogee and Henrietta, without permission of the tribe. After > awhile, > the whites outnumbered the Creeks in these towns, and the whites took > over. > They ignored the laws of the Creek National Council - essentially > becoming > autonomous city states. Much of the lawlessness in the old Indian > Nations was > due to the problem of have predominantly white cities not being subject > to > anyone except U.S. Marshalls out of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Do you remember > the > great John Wayne movie, "True Grit?" > > Does that answer your question? > > Richard T. > > > > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your > budget? > Read reviews on AOL Autos. > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 > ) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

In a message dated 8/14/2008 1:29:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: The story that has been passed down through to us is that there was a land grab by the cherokees in muskogee and as such ggggpa George Bell disowned them. Saying that he would rather be white than cherokee. It would have been impossible for any tribe to do a land grab of another tribe in Oklahoma prior to 1905, when the Indian nations were divided into allotments. The tribe owned the land. Individual tribal members were allowed to use the land, but did not own it. However, under traditional Creek law, the woman owned the property improvements. If your grandfather was Cherokee, and his wife was Creek, then their children would be considered Creek. What actually happened in reality was that whites settled in places like Tulsa, Muskogee and Henrietta, without permission of the tribe. After awhile, the whites outnumbered the Creeks in these towns, and the whites took over. They ignored the laws of the Creek National Council - essentially becoming autonomous city states. Much of the lawlessness in the old Indian Nations was due to the problem of have predominantly white cities not being subject to anyone except U.S. Marshalls out of Fort Smith, Arkansas. Do you remember the great John Wayne movie, "True Grit?" Does that answer your question? Richard T. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

Carole, By "coincidence"... :o) I think I have a genealogy book written by a man in Oklahoma , named Bell. I will have to look it up in my goods. He dwells extensively on his Bell family and how they tie into several Cherokee families. The book is one of those self published books by the individual and likely not redibly available. Send me a note to my [email protected] and I will locate the title /author/ publisher / etc. Maybe I can check a few questions for you using the book? Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Carole Cam and Lochie" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:28 PM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] another question :) > Just a little back ground. > > Grandpa just passed, but left oklahoma after ww2 and never went back > to Oklahoma. This makes my research oh so much harder because we have > no close family in OK anymore. So my question is? > Apparently when the family relocated to Oklahoma (with the McIntosh > faction), ggggma Yarnah married George Bell. Now it gets really > fuzzy, every historical document lists him as 1/2 white 1/2 cherokee. > BUT he is enrolled as a Creek. The story that has been passed down > through to us is that there was a land grab by the cherokees in > muskogee and as such ggggpa George Bell disowned them. Saying that he > would rather be white than cherokee. > > Does anyone have an opinion on this? Did this happen a lot or at all? > Would he have to be adopted by the creeks? Or was he creek through > marriage. He is always listed as having indian blood. Can he be > listed on the creek rolls despite having cherokee blood ? (if true). > I guess I need to know if there is a cherokee connection and where > that takes me in my research. > > > Any insight would be really helpful > > Thanks > Carole > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Just a little back ground. Grandpa just passed, but left oklahoma after ww2 and never went back to Oklahoma. This makes my research oh so much harder because we have no close family in OK anymore. So my question is? Apparently when the family relocated to Oklahoma (with the McIntosh faction), ggggma Yarnah married George Bell. Now it gets really fuzzy, every historical document lists him as 1/2 white 1/2 cherokee. BUT he is enrolled as a Creek. The story that has been passed down through to us is that there was a land grab by the cherokees in muskogee and as such ggggpa George Bell disowned them. Saying that he would rather be white than cherokee. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Did this happen a lot or at all? Would he have to be adopted by the creeks? Or was he creek through marriage. He is always listed as having indian blood. Can he be listed on the creek rolls despite having cherokee blood ? (if true). I guess I need to know if there is a cherokee connection and where that takes me in my research. Any insight would be really helpful Thanks Carole

Hello, I "inherited" a set of the Britannica Junior Encyclopaedia, which I like for its simplicity. The Colonial Life section states The dominant people entering from Maine to Georgia were English. Puritans settled New England. Quakers settled Pennsylvania. New York (New Netherland) was founded by the Dutch.. Between 1700 and 1776, thousands of Germans settled along the Delaware River in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. The Huguenots (French Protestants who were badly treated at home) came into South Carolina and New Rochelle, New York. The Irish from southern Ireland and the Scotch-Irish from northern Ireland came in great numbers, especially after 1700, setted usually on the frontiers of all the colonies, particularly in Pennsylvania, Virginia and North Carolina. Swedes and Finns settled in Delaware and made homes in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The Swiss settled mainly in South Carolina. Jewish people were soon found in nearly all the colonies, particularly in the larger towns. Negro slaves were brought into all the colonies and made up a large percentage of the population in the South. The Social Levels were 1) important royal officials, great landowners, wealthy merchants, and leading professional men; 2) clergymen, less important merchants, professional men, and landowners; 3) freehold farmers, shopkeepers, and artisans; 4) unskilled laborers; 5) indentured servants; 6) slaves. I THINK "freehold" means ones who LIVE on their own farm property. ? as opposed to "tenant" farmers ? Best regards, gmw

Not Richard T. but : " Rabbit Town " translates to Cufe Tvlofv pronounced Choo-fee duh-loh-fuh SLT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Funderburk" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 8:45 PM > Richard T. Can you make a stab at translating "Rabbit Town" into > Creek? RabbitTown, known long ago as an Upper Creek town in Calhoun > County AL, is not far from where I grew up. Mvto. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1604 - Release Date: 8/11/2008 > 5:50 AM > > >

In the l800s many Lumbee Indians worked in the naval stores industry here in North Carolina. That is, they worked out in the pine forests, tapping the resin for turpentine, tar, pitch, etc. used to "caulk up" or waterproof (wooden) ships. Some Lumbees left for GA in the latter l800s to follow the trade there. Last December as we visited my husband's brother in Warner Robins, GA, I read a news article about heavy fire damage to a water plant in LaFayette. The Safety Fire Comissioner mentioned was John Oxendine--a surefire Lumbee name. So I'm wondering if he is descended from Lumbees who were there for the naval stores. BTW, the actress Heather Locklear is Lumbee. Locklear is a common Lumbee name that means "hold fast." My maternal Ggrandmother was Mary Jane Gowens; her family from Newton/Rockdale Counties GA and before that South Carolina, then N. Carolina. Several years ago after years of research and now living 80 miles from Lumbee country, I learned that Gowens (Goins, Goings, Gowan, Guin, etc.) is a common Lumbee name. Right in my own backyard! The Goings in early VA and the Carolinas were sometimes shown as "bound out" and/or propertyand commonly described as "mixt" or "mulatto." Many Goings are listed as "Free Person of Color," "Colored Person," "Person of Color," etc. generally meaning having some Indian blood. (To census takers, though, anyone not white enough--some Jews, Gypsies, Turkish or Slavic peoples--ended up "Persons of Color.") Goings is also found among the Cherokees and Melungeons. Richard T. Can you make a stab at translating "Rabbit Town" into Creek? RabbitTown, known long ago as an Upper Creek town in Calhoun County AL, is not far from where I grew up. Mvto.

Kathie, thanks for posting the link to Lance's list at Creek Researcher online. I thought I remembered seeing it somewhere and I did look there but just overlooked it. He and Judy both have so very much information on their respective sites! For those who were looking for the land certificates and records for the Poarch Creek families in 1817, they are located here in the National Archives: Record Group 49 Special Acts, Treaty of Fort Jackson of 1814 (Box 27) Regards, Evelyn

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: KathyRoberts54 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.special.secreeks/3018.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: serenity551 Could this be your husband's family ? SSDI Garfie WALKER b May 22 1905 d May 1982 Iss : AL L/R : 35150 Sylacauga, Talladega Co AL I found Garfie and his wife in the 1930 census and also with his parents in 1920. If you would like me to post this information, please let me know. Kathy Roberts VA Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Woooohooooo, lots of interesting information . Thanks very much. Richard B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathie M. Donahue" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:04 AM Subject: [CREEK-SOUTHEAST] Metis and Acadian and Jesuit > The Metis Genealogical Society of Spokane, WA, was where I learned > genealogy, first. Members of that group, in the 1970's and 1980's were > descended from Flandreau Sioux, Plains Cree, Turtle Mountain Chippewa and > Salish-speaking tribes of WA, ID, and MT. > > Tribes, today, with a broadly-interpreted metis background include those > of the Great Lakes, the Dakotas, MT, ID, WA, OR, and some just south of > those northern tier states. The word, metis (feminine = metisse) is > French for mixed blood. The Red River (Winnipeg) metis were strictly > considered, at one time, to be, mixed Scots and Cree. > > Sources of genealogical information about these people can be found in > many Quebec genealogical dictionaries (Tanguay, Jette, Drouin [now online > at ancestry.com]) and some Quebec marriage repertoires (lists) such as > Rivest and Loiselle. Gail Morin, who lives just north of me near Coulee > Dam, WA, is the author of a significant group of books and CD's published > by Quentin Publications on the metis of the plains. The Red River, > Manitoba, censuses 1830-1870 are full of metis families. Interesting > reading about the metis on the subject of Louis Riel is an eye-opener to > political standing of these great people. Sprague and Frye's GENEALOGIES > OF THE FIRST METIS NATION mix church and census records of the Red River > era in a great reference on the early families. The Half-breed Scrip > records of Canada and the Great Lakes lend even more detail to the > picture. One of the most recent metis groups in the US to gain a > reservation were the Rocky Boy. They were the descendants of the! > Landless Chippewa of Montana who occupied a hill in Helena, MT, for many > years, poor and desititute, living in shanties and impossible conditions. > > The foregoing is sketchy, but you can get the general idea. > > The Acadian people, many of whom migrated from Nova Scotia (formerly > Acadia) to Louisiana are another story, although Acadians may be found all > over the world, even in France. There were significant groups along the > east coast of the US; all up and down the Mississippi; in Quebec, Ontario > and Manitoba and other places. Many were mixed blood before they ever > left Acadia. > > The Acadian genealogy is almost a known-quantity. Their origin in Acadia > and exit time is fairly certain which makes for a straight-forward type of > research. There are Acadian Genealogical Societies and experts, today, > who can help show the way. A recent book by Stephen White ought to be > looked at in one's Acadian research efforts. > > Well, that's the surface of it and maybe there's enough there to help. > There's a possibility some of the Acadian would be found among the Choctaw > and Chickasaw and certainly any of the tribes of LA (now, Cajuns, the > local corruption of Acadian). The catholics weren't allowed up into the > heartland of Alabama. Had the Jesuits made it up there, early (the > 1700's), I think we would have some dy-no-mite records to follow in > untangling the mysteries among the Creeks. But alas, they were kept away. > > Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents > http://puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/ is a wonderful history and > insight into the missionary efforts of these great priests who trod (often > barefoot) among the Indians and early communities of the Americas. Have a > look. Without their zeal, I wouldn't have the name of my earliest Indian > grandmother, Charlotte, an Okanogan, born, probably, in the Methow Valley > of WA in the first decade of the 19th century. > > In researching French-sounding surnames, don't forget the Huguenots. > Those that took over Manakin-town near Richmond, VA, in 1700, displaced > and absorbed many Saponi families, according the Dr. Peter Houck, author > of INDIAN ISLAND IN AMHERST VIRGINIA. Many of those families pushed west > or took ship to Louisiana and Texas in the early days. > > From several genealogies I've studied, but not been able to actually prove > Indian blood in, I've thought there were significant numbers of mixed > bloods among the Austin colonists of Texas. These were not generally > French-originated families but they were families that were found early > among the first settlers of KY, OH, and IN, among many other states, who > originated in the Mid-Atlantic states, VA and the Carolinas. > > I am being very general, here, and intending only to give clues to things. > If you have questions of corrections, that will be good. I have not dealt > with several of these subjects in any great depth and not for many years, > as most of my work has been among the Five Civilized Tribes. But I love > to work on the French lineages of the Indian people because the Jesuits > were hard at work with them, early, and provide wonderful records to their > histories. > > If you cut your teeth on Quebec and Jesuit records, as a greenie, as I > did, you thought, at the outset, "Hey, THIS is easy!" Well, it was, > relatively speaking. Reality, however, soon dawned. Not every ancestor > is Catholic and not every Catholic was ministered to by a Jesuit....and > outside of Quebec, where churches had to keep records in duplicate and > triplicate, even Catholic records were hard to find in a direct line from > early times forward. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >