To any who are interested: I have seen a few postings on this subject, and I have no idea where the idea originated. There were some country border changes up in Connacht in 1898 (and one in 1840, that I know of) and Waterford lost some land - which it's now trying to get back - also, in 1898. But I have absolutely no information of county border changes between Cork and Kerry since the early 1200's, when they were both shired (and the names were changed to "counties" later, but with no boundary changes). I'm sure that much of this speculation comes from PLU's and Registration Districts, which were centered around major towns and occasionally extended beyond county borders - thus confusing the genealogist.....again. Also, emigrants who left from Queenstown/Cobh, Co. Cork, were often listed as 'coming' from there, whereas, in fact, that was only their port of departure. But.......if anyone has any definitive information on border changes between Co. Cork and Co. Kerry within, say, the last 700 years.....I'd appreciate hearing about it, so that I can add the information to my maps/files. Thanks in advance. Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western Massachusetts

there was indeed an area of Co. Kerry in the old days, that was totally within the borders of Co. Cork, near its west border. It is today part of Co. Cork. My great grandfather came from there. information below. map can be found in O'Kief series by Albert Casey: **************** Called the East Fractions of Kerry. Maps are found in the O'Kief Series as follows: Foldout Co. Cork, and Kerry, 1750 maps in front of The Ancient and Present State of the County and City of Cork, by C. Smith, reprinted in V. 10 of the O'Kief Series; also, map of 1641 after p. 520, V. 1, O'Kief series. From The Ancient and Present State of the County and City of Cork, by C. Smith, reprinted in V. 10 of the O'Kief Series, p. 294, "A considerable tract of the County of Kerry, called the East Fractions, is in the center of this parish" (par. of Cullen). From p.26, The Ancient and Present State of the County of Kerry, by. C. smith, M.D., (1756), reprinted in the O'Kief Series by Dr. Albert Casey, V. 10, the following: "A considerable part of Kerry, was formerly a distinct county in itself, called Desmond; it consisted of that part of Kerry which lies south of the river Mang, with the Barony of Bear and Bantry in the county of Cork; and was a palatinate under the jurisdiction of the earls of Desmond. It is true, the ancient country of Desmond or south Munster, extended much further, as appears by the grant of K. Henry II, to Robert Fitz-Stephen and Milo de Cogan, cited at large in my History of Cork(e). Its limits were from the hill of St. Brandon above mentioned, to the river Blackwater near Lymore (sp? Lijmore?), and comprehended the county of Cork, as well as Kerry. The information in this footnote come from the valuable, but rare, book Gleanings from Irish History by William F. T. Butler, published 1925 by Longmans Green & Co. The information from this book is courtesy of Pat Dineen, 25Mar1997. From Gleanings From Irish History: From Gleanings, Footnote 14, p. 54, "To the 'East Fractions' belonged the townlands of Ballydaly and Coolecarragh, now in Muskerry, Co. Cork, and Devilish, Lemenagh, Dooneasleane, Illanbrack, and Baughallmore, now in Duhallow, as well as the Kerry portion of Noghaval Daly." Pat Dineen says the preceeding townlands are probably now (1997) known as Islandav, Loumanagh, Doonasleen, Illanbrak, and Ruhill(more). From p. 63, "Also in Magunihy, and in that part known as the East Fractions, was seated a branch of the great bardic family of O'Daly. This family, said to be originally from Westmeath, were hereditary poets to MacCarthy Mor, MacCarthy Reagh, the Earls of Desmond, and O'Brien of Thomond. In each of the terretories of these lords they had lands assigned to them, free of all, or nearly all, charges. They held the Kerry portion of the parish, called from them Noghaval Daly, as well as Ballydaly and Coolcarragh which were counted, up until recent times, as part of County Kerry, though surrounded on three sides by Muskerry and Duhallow." From p.78, footnote 1, "Herbert. A portion of Duhallow was counted as part of the 'East Fractions' of Kerry down to the nineteenth century. I take this to have been originally MacCarthy Mor's demesne" From p.78: "4. Of Duhallow. In the foregoing pages I have dealt with twelve of fourteen 'countries' which, according to Herbert, were subject to MacCarthy Mor. There still remain two other territories, those of Duhallow and Muskerry, corresponding pretty closely with the present County Cork Baronies so named. In these terretories we find a somewhat different state of affairs from that existing in Desmond proper. In each the subject clans did not pay allegiance direct to the overlord; they were subject to the immediate rule of a chief of the race of Clan Carthy, who in turn was subject to Mac Carthy Mor. In each, also, Mac Carthy Mor's rights were small. Besides "rising out" and the giving of the rod, he had the 'finding' of 27 gallowglasses in Duhallow, and of 30 in Muskerry." Note from letter from Pat Dineen of 16Apr'97: "As per an old friend in Ruhill, Dan Sean O'Keefe, the eastern fractions of Kerry seem to have ended by the Griffith Valuations (1852). My friend mad an interesting point, in that quite a few of the main families of the locality of the Eastern Fractions had originally come from Kerry. This adds to your Forde family tradition. ******************************* --On Thursday, March 28, 2002, 12:17 PM +0000 PeteScherm@aol.com wrote: > To any who are interested: > > I have seen a few postings on this subject, and I have no idea where the > idea originated. There were some country border changes up in Connacht > in 1898 (and one in 1840, that I know of) and Waterford lost some land - > which it's now trying to get back - also, in 1898. But I have > absolutely no information of county border changes between Cork and > Kerry since the early 1200's, when they were both shired (and the names > were changed to "counties" later, but with no boundary changes). I'm > sure that much of this speculation comes from PLU's and Registration > Districts, which were centered around major towns and occasionally > extended beyond county borders - thus confusing the > genealogist.....again. Also, emigrants who left from Queenstown/Cobh, > Co. Cork, were often listed as 'coming' from there, whereas, in fact, > that was only their port of departure. > > But.......if anyone has any definitive information on border changes > between Co. Cork and Co. Kerry within, say, the last 700 years.....I'd > appreciate hearing about it, so that I can add the information to my > maps/files. Thanks in advance. > > > Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western > Massachusetts > > > ==== CountyCork Mailing List ==== > ** Visit the IrelandGenWeb at http://www.irelandgenweb.com ** > >