There was a Joseph Couch on an 1816 Clay County KY Tax List, who never showed on the census records in Clay or Perry Co KY. Martin's son, Joseph would have been about 10 or 11 at the time, and too young to be on a tax list. It is reasonable to think Joseph might possibly have been John's father, and didn't live much longer after moving to KY with the rest of the clan. Or he might have been an older brother. I do know for sure, Joseph and John were in the same territories in both VA and NC, before the move to KY. Preponderence of evidence leans heavily on the two of them being closely related. Has anyone from Joseph's family ever taken the DNA test? Some of them are residing here in Oklahoma. They're from Joseph's son, Nathan, and his son Meshack. I'll ask around -- see who's still around OKC that's from Meshack and his sons. Joyce