Robert, I cannot tell you specifically how group 5 relates to Tim Couch -- seems I read on this site that he (Tim) is a descendant of Martin Couch, as I am. Perhaps others are aware of facts in the relationship. If it is true, I certainly will claim him. There are not many Couch folk that are as well known as Tim -- actually none I know of. I bet Windwalker knows about Tim. Ron Couch