Hi Bob, How I wish I could tell you who was the father of our John of Perry Co KY. To date, we haven't found where John and Mary were in 1774, other than "Commonwealth of VA" -- and that could have been anywhere in todays VA, WV, KY, parts of OH, IN -- a huge territory, but we think primarily in the western counties of [now] VA, and also the part which became WV in 1863. We know John was associated closely with a Joseph Couch, sometimes seen as Crouch. Not knowing his age, Joseph could have been father, or brother, of John. There was a Joseph on an 1816 Clay Co KY tax list who was never found there again. Martin's son, Joseph, b c1805, would not have been old enough to be on a tax list at age 11. If the older Joseph didn't move on to parts unknown, he may have died there. That's why I've questioned the Joseph in Knox Co TN as being the same Joseph of Ashe Co NC. Most of the time, where we've found John, there is Joseph somewhere nearby. Ron's DNA matching with so many others is the key -- but where do we find the lock?? We are searching for, in addition to John and Joseph, an older Austin. He never seemed to have put down roots any place -- wandered from state to state to state. Sam can tell you more about Austin than I can, but there's really little known about him. There may have been another brother named David - he is also seen as Crouch/Couch. Some of these men were written as Crouch on official records, but their signature was Couch. Botetourte, Fincastle, Montgomery and Grayson Counties, VA are good places to start -- but where they were before, I have no clue. Sorry, this is the best I can do at present. Joyce