Boyd and All, Thanks for the insight on the Church of Ireland. What do you know about the Scots who came from Scotland in the early 18th century and the Church of Ireland? I understand my McCord ancestor actually built the Church in Stewartstown. I am guessing it would have been more of a job instead of founding the Church? When he immigrated to the U.S. he then is Presbyterian. Did some leave Ireland for religious reasons? Thanks, Kim McCord Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 19, 2015, at 9:27 AM, cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > > You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoTyroneIreland-D mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, or wish to search or browse the archives or unsubscribe from digest mode and subscribe in list mode, see http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/NIR/CoTyroneIreland.html for links and instructions. See http://cotyroneireland.com/ for our associated web site. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Church records (Frances McBride) > 2. Re: Church records (Boyd Gray) > 3. Re: Church records (Loretta Layman) > 4. Re: Church records (Boyd Gray) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 12:49:27 +0100 > From: Frances McBride <fjmcbride2@gmail.com> > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com" <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <dlx5k8c9d255vus9y6cb4eih.1429444167973@email.android.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a go! od! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 14:10:07 +0100 > From: "Boyd Gray" <boydgray26@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Frances McBride'" <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, > <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <2B8D2E0D4639423C930D16CCE7FD598A@userPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 09:51:08 -0400 > From: "Loretta Layman" <lynneage@h-o-l.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Boyd Gray'" <boydgray26@gmail.com>, "'Frances McBride'" > <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <003b01d07aa7$e3d74f10$ab85ed30$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. > It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers > of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of > Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing > the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". > That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually > rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". > > Regards, > Loretta (Lynn) Layman > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM > To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; > CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:26:54 +0100 > From: "Boyd Gray" <boydgray26@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Loretta Layman'" <lynneage@h-o-l.com>, "'Frances McBride'" > <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <599C5643F2B34AD7BA63CCE1B31A0B71@userPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > And, of course, Loretta, it was Presbyterians who took the lead in Ulster in > the United Irishmen's Revolt of 1798. But I think there was a large element > of self interest in that! > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Loretta Layman [mailto:lynneage@h-o-l.com] > Sent: 19 April 2015 14:51 > To: 'Boyd Gray'; 'Frances McBride'; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. > It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers > of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of > Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing > the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". > That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually > rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". > > Regards, > Loretta (Lynn) Layman > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM > To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; > CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the COTYRONEIRELAND list administrator, send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the COTYRONEIRELAND mailing list, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 10, Issue 86 > ***********************************************