-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/17/15, cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com <cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: Subject: COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 10, Issue 83 To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com Received: Friday, April 17, 2015, 8:59 PM You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoTyroneIreland-D mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, or wish to search or browse the archives or unsubscribe from digest mode and subscribe in list mode, see http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/NIR/CoTyroneIreland.html for links and instructions. See http://cotyroneireland.com/ for our associated web site. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lack of baptism data (Helen Edwards) 2. NB records show Irish origins (Shirley Smith) 3. Historical background (Susan Elliott) 4. Re: Lack of baptism data (Claire K) 5. Re: Historical background (K Cooper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:47:25 -0700 From: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data To: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CANMFP5QYpmyNoErmZnWZSqr9RhnAEoOtCrNACokJfKNOM3-gRA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think the reason my search has come up dry is because nobody recorded the information that I need. I hired professional who could find nothing so I must regretfully come to the conclusion that I will likely never find my Irish roots. I know my great-great-grandparents came from County Tyrone but can only find records of their existence in New Brunswick, Canada where they were married in 1833. I so wish I could find parents' names and/or siblings, but so far there is nothing. Helen Kelley Edwards Victoria, BC Canada On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on > searching > for Irish records is the usually quoted one. > > I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is > 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this > they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of > the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, > marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. > > > Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice > from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. > > Cathy in NZ > > > On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. > > > > 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > > > 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final > > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 > but > > it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > > Dublin. > > > > 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public > records > > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the > censuses > > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and > the > > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > > Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look > > here: > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > > > 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > > > 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did > indeed > > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these > restrictions > > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so > the > > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the > point, > > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in > their > > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > > > 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > > church: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > > hmore/133150336737236 > > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > > Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally > > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK > and > > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out > all > > Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all > > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and > Church > > of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because > clergymen > > did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or > > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I > have > > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler > via > > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > > To: Jessie Engan > > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually > religious > > basis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children > > of > >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > > understand > >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > > to > >> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > > uprising > >> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian > >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became > a > >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > >> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER > >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > >> > >> ------------- > >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:55:58 GMT From: "Shirley Smith" <smith_shirley_ross@juno.com> Subject: [CoTyIre] NB records show Irish origins To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <20150417.175558.9846.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hello, Helen, If you have not already done so, check land records on the New Brunswick Provincial Archives website. I found where in Northern Ireland my Grahams came from, on their land petition. Land records are all indexed. NB newspapers are also indexed and often show the location in the old country. Good luck. Shirley ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Helen Edwards via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> To: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:47:25 -0700 I think the reason my search has come up dry is because nobody recorded the information that I need. I hired professional who could find nothing so I must regretfully come to the conclusion that I will likely never find my Irish roots. I know my great-great-grandparents came from County Tyrone but can only find records of their existence in New Brunswick, Canada where they were married in 1833. I so wish I could find parents' names and/or siblings, but so far there is nothing. Helen Kelley Edwards Victoria, BC Canada On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on > searching > for Irish records is the usually quoted one. > > I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is > 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this > they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of > the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, > marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. > > > Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice > from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. > > Cathy in NZ > > > On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. > > > > 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > > > 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final > > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 > but > > it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > > Dublin. > > > > 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public > records > > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the > censuses > > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and > the > > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > > Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look > > here: > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > > > 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > > > 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did > indeed > > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these > restrictions > > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so > the > > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the > point, > > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in > their > > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > > > 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > > church: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > > hmore/133150336737236 > > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > > Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally > > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK > and > > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out > all > > Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all > > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and > Church > > of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because > clergymen > > did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or > > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I > have > > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler > via > > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > > To: Jessie Engan > > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually > religious > > basis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children > > of > >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > > understand > >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > > to > >> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > > uprising > >> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian > >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became > a > >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > >> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER > >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > >> > >> ------------- > >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:16:36 +1000 From: Susan Elliott <robelliott@optusnet.com.au> Subject: [CoTyIre] Historical background To: <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <201504180117.t3I1HQC2004182@mail.rootsweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I have enjoyed reading the recent posts regarding the availability of records. I sincerely hope that I do not offend anyone with this post. I have been researching my Northern Ireland ancestors since the 1980's. I recently read Jonathan Bardon's book "The Plantation of Ulster". Being a 5th generation Australian we were not taught about this topic which is part of who I am. I therefore found the book extremely informative and rivetting reading. It provided so much historical information and put my research into perspective for me. I am sure that there are countless other equally informative books available. I would certainly recommend becoming familiar with the times we are researching. I am currently in a brick wall position with trying to pinpoint a location for two of my ancestors but have been there before and broken through that wall. This site has been instrumental in me getting as far as I have. My grateful thanks to all. Susan Elliott Melbourne Australia ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:36:45 -0400 From: Claire K <seekay@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data To: catherine trewby via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Cc: "COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com" <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com>, Jessie Engan <jengan@verizon.net> Message-ID: <D2D08BE9-A398-4F2F-85FD-7E8DCC88C340@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Not doyennes, surely! Last I knew, both Boyd and Robert were men. :-) Claire K Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2015, at 8:16 PM, catherine trewby via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > ...Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd.... ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 19:58:24 -0700 From: K Cooper <kaperc@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Historical background To: Susan Elliott <robelliott@optusnet.com.au> Cc: CoTyroneIreland List <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAHfbYM2GeJOW=EXFiAmvpLvwKkA9Dnqj63=-RVyP1tDmnVOteg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I couldn't agree more, Susan! Google Books is a good source for old books, as well as other free sources. Also, consider looking for family histories for all connected surnames and local histories. For instance, I discovered there is a historical society for Omagh, the area most of my family came from and they recently published a lovely book about the area. Also, there is a Facebook group and website for the Glennely Valley. We need to think outside the box, as trite as that sounds. Kathleen Cooper Researching from Southern California On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Susan Elliott via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I have enjoyed reading the recent posts regarding the availability of > records. > > I sincerely hope that I do not offend anyone with this post. > > I have been researching my Northern Ireland ancestors since the 1980's. > > I recently read Jonathan Bardon's book "The Plantation of Ulster". Being > a 5th generation Australian we were not taught about this topic which is > part of who I am. I therefore found the book extremely informative and > rivetting reading. It provided so much historical information and put my > research into perspective for me. > > I am sure that there are countless other equally informative books > available. I would certainly recommend becoming familiar with the times we > are researching. > > I am currently in a brick wall position with trying to pinpoint a location > for two of my ancestors but have been there before and broken through that > wall. This site has been instrumental in me getting as far as I have. My > grateful thanks to all. > > Susan Elliott > Melbourne Australia > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *Cuimhnigh ar na daoine ?nar th?inig t?* *"Remember the men whence you came."* ------------------------------ To contact the COTYRONEIRELAND list administrator, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the COTYRONEIRELAND mailing list, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 10, Issue 83 ***********************************************