*Donagheady* Parish Church, (Church of Ireland) Marriages 1845-1849 <http://www.cotyroneireland.com/marriages/donagheady4.html>

*Abercorn Estate* - Survey & Valuation of the Manor of *Strabane* 1777 - *UPDATED* <http://www.cotyroneireland.com/estates/abercorn_strabane.html> *Abercorn Estate* - Tenants Recorded in the Manor of *Strabane (Camus-Juxta-Mourne, Uruney & Ardstraw Parishes)* from Maps of the Estate 1777 <http://www.cotyroneireland.com/estates/abercorn_strabane5.html> Missing Friends from Co. Tyrone in *Melbourne, Victoria, Australia* 1853-69 <http://www.cotyroneireland.com/newspaper/melbourne.html>

UNSUBSCRIBE -----Original Message----- From: Boyd Gray via Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:14 AM To: 'Luke Fowler' ; 'Jessie Engan' Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 but it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in Dublin. 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public records stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the censuses from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and the rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look here: http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did indeed give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these restrictions by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so the Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the point, Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in their faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland church: https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag hmore/133150336737236 I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally inimical to stern Presbyterianism. I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK and is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out all Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and Church of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because clergymen did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or Presbyterians recorded burials. I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I have cleared up a few misapprehensions. Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler via Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 To: Jessie Engan Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually religious basis Sent from my iPhone > On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children of > my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I understand > the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford to > pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast uprising > in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian > church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became a > Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER > registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

UNSUBSCRIBE -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Vaughan via Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 5:24 AM To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data I believe it's true, however, that the Church of Ireland lost a lot of records in the 1922 fire. They were required to send all their records to Dublin for safekeeping, and a lot of parishes didn't keep copies locally, as they thought it unnecessary. Most of my family was COI, and most of the relevant churches have no records for the 19th century (the period I'm interested in). One branch of my family was Presbyterian, and I've found 19th century records for that family, which were very useful. With regard to an entire parish changing religion, it would be possible for all of them to convert and start a new Presbyterian church, but the COI parish church doesn't belong to the parish but to the Church of Ireland, so it would be impossible to convert the building. On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on >> searching >> for Irish records is the usually quoted one. >> >> I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is >> 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing >> this >> they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill >> of >> the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, >> marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into >> history. >> >> >> Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice >> from >> two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. >> >> Cathy in NZ >> >> >> On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. >>> >>> 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". >>> >>> 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final >>> skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 >> but >>> it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in >>> Dublin. >>> >>> 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government >>> forces >>> fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public >> records >>> stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the >> censuses >>> from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records >>> are >>> still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and >> the >>> rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI >>> in >>> Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian >>> baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, >>> are >>> still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look >>> here: >>> http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf >>> >>> 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in >>> the >>> 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the >>> majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. >>> >>> 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did >> indeed >>> give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the >>> Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these >> restrictions >>> by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so >> the >>> Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the >> point, >>> Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in >> their >>> faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only >>> convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. >>> >>> 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland >>> church: >>> >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag >>> hmore/133150336737236 >>> I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a >>> Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally >>> inimical to stern Presbyterianism. >>> >>> I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE >>> genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK >> and >>> is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out >> all >>> Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all >>> Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and >> Church >>> of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because >> clergymen >>> did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or >>> Presbyterians recorded burials. >>> >>> I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I >> have >>> cleared up a few misapprehensions. >>> >>> Boyd Gray >>> >>> http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm >>> >>> http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ >>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler >> via >>> Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 >>> To: Jessie Engan >>> Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> >>> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data >>> >>> Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually >> religious >>> basis >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via >>> <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >>>> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of >>>> children >>> of >>>> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I >>> understand >>>> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't >>>> afford >>> to >>>> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast >>> uprising >>>> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian >>>> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a >>>> Tyrone >>>> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became >> a >>>> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging >>>> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER >>>> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. >>>> >>>> ------------- >>>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------- >>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------- >>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------- >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi everyone, It's been a while since I've been able to do any research on the McAleer side of my family but I would like to thank everyone that has helped with their advice so far. I have recently created a Facebook page in an effort to gather as many 'McAleers' together in the virtual world as possible, share information and stories of their ancestry in the hope of breaking down some walls to find out how we are all connected. If anyone on this list is interested in joining, you can do by visiting and liking my page here. www.facebook.com/mcclearfamilyhistory It's in it's infancy at the moment so I would love you to share if you have time. Thanks again for your help and advice. You guys are doing an awesome job! Kirsty > From: cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 9, Issue 13 > To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 01:00:43 -0700 > > > > You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoTyroneIreland-D mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, or wish to search or browse the archives or unsubscribe from digest mode and subscribe in list mode, see http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/NIR/CoTyroneIreland.html for links and instructions. See http://cotyroneireland.com/ for our associated web site. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: McAleer of "Carrickane, near Newtownstewart" > (Margaret Donnelly) > 2. Bridget Cushanhan (Olwyn Sherwin) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2014 15:31:58 -0500 > From: "Margaret Donnelly" <hooksett416@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] McAleer of "Carrickane, near Newtownstewart" > To: "'TyroneIre'" <TyroneIre@aol.com>, <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com>, > <mcaleer1967@embarqmail.com> > Message-ID: <003901cf109e$82c0e2f0$8842a8d0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > John, > > I have a book "Families and Holdings in the Townland of Innishatieve, > Carrickmore," compiled by a local priest, Peter Kerr. I am researching the > McGarrity family from that part of Tyrone. > > There are several McAleer (and variations) mentions in the book. Happy to > share relevant pages. > > Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of TyroneIre > Sent: Sunday, 12 January, 2014 7:04 PM > To: <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [CoTyIre] McAleer of "Carrickane, near Newtownstewart" > > John, there is a townland, "Carrickayne" near Newtownstewart in the cicil > parish of Donagheady. There is also "Carrickone" in the civil parish of > Urney. both are in what was the barony of Strabane Lower. > > In a search of Griffith's Valuation in 1859 for William McAleer, there is > one by that name in the townland of Berrysfort in the civil parish of Urney. > > > I also have McALEERs, likely to be from Badoney Lower. My ancestor, > Catherine/Kitty McALEER was married to Francis DEVLIN of Fallagh Upper, > Drumlea. And coincidentally, the post office was also Newtownstewart but > about 4 miles east of it in the civil parish of Badoney Lower. > - - - - - > Clare L. > > > > - - - - - > Clare > On Jan 12, 2014, at 12:54 PM, "John & Jann McAleer" > <mcaleer1967@embarqmail.com> wrote: > > > Kirsty, > > Yes! We likely share some common heritage in Tyrone, albeit our > > ancestors went in different directions!. I'm also searching for any > > more specific Irish origins of my GGGrandfather Dennis (or Denis) > > McAleer. He was able to identify him on my GGrandfather John's 1923 > > death certificate which identified his parents as Dennis and Mary. > > Per my document source from the NJ State Archives Dennis died in the > > city of Bridgeton, Cumberland County New Jersey on Sept. 1, 1878 @ age 29, > born Ireland, resident of USA 11 yrs. > > The certificate lists his parents as William and Ellen but spells > > parents as McLear, ( I presume this was intentional?) as HIS surname > > on the death certificate was spelled McAleer. Dennis' wife - Mary > > (maiden name Noland) in > > 1880 US census and city directory in Bridgeton shows her age 29, widow > > of Dennis, with son John (8 - my GGrandfather) and daughter Helen (3) > > living with an Aunt Mary Kane (58). Also listed same in US Census. > > > > I have found an Irish ship pasenger List to Philadelphia > > (Philadelphia is a logical point for Southern NJ/Bridgeton) on the > > ship Mohongo, 3/67 with a Denis McAleer, which matches dates - i.e. 11 > > yrs. in US, but I have no idea if it's him. The passenger list has as > origin "Carrickane, near > > Newtownstewart". I was told by another source that this is likely a > > misspelling of Carrickone? > > > > ALSO in Bridgeton there was a James McAleer, who died there 1877 age > > 40, death info lists same parents as Dennis (making him most probably > > a brother to Dennis?). James is also listed in the 1860 US census > > with wife Margaret, > > 2 children, Hannah E, (5) & Wm. M. (2) and also co-resident William, > > age 23, identified as a "relative". William appears to have gone > > forward with a family there, as the 1880 census shows wife Eliza, 40 > > born in Ireland, daughter Annie 19 born in Ireland and 2 younger born > > NJ. Seems to be a McAleer extended family? I cannot find any clear > > links to Tyrone although I know many McAleers originated there. I > > have not found parents William or Ellen in US records or elsewhere and > > obviously have no idea whether they also emigrated or stayed in Ireland. > > > > I have no indication as to religion, although my Grandfather (also a > > John McAleer was baptized in 1897 in an Episcopal church in Brooklyn, > > New York, although I'm told many McAleers in Ireland were Catholic. > > > > I have done some research in Griffiths Valuation but have no way to > > tie the McAleers I've found to my ancestors. I do see that there > > were many McAleers concentrated in Tyrone. > > > > I am also seeking any information that leads more specifically and > > provably into Dennis McAleer's origins and family ancestors in Ireland. > > > > Last November I did engage a genealogist - Robert at Ulster Ancestry > > Genealogy and family history research in Northern Ireland to do 12 > > hours of research to see what he could find with this limited > > information. He was expected to take about 2 months but I have not yet > heard back. > > > > Best regards, > > John McAleer > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. McAleers of Omagh, County Tyrone (Kirsty Catalano) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2014 12:15:35 +1000 > > From: Kirsty Catalano <kmcclear@hotmail.com> > > Subject: [CoTyIre] McAleers of Omagh, County Tyrone > > To: "COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID: <BLU172-W266A7F58252CC5719C5AEBD3BD0@phx.gbl> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi, > > > > I am relatively new to this forum but wondered if anyone is > > researching any of the McAleer families of Omagh, County Tyrone. My > > g-g-grandfather came to Australia in the mid 1800's. His death > > certificate indicates that he was born in Omagh, County Tyrone but no > > details of his parents are listed. He named his first son Thomas and > > was a Roman Catholic. Are there any others searching for information > > on these families? I know there weren't many compared to other Irish > > surnames and they seemed to live in the same area at the time. > > > > I have exhausted most Australian avenues so am now looking for > > overseas connections, if there are any. > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. By the way, this is a > > wonderful resource! > > > > Thanks so much! > > > > Kirsty > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:12:47 +1300 > From: Olwyn Sherwin <osherwin@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: [CoTyIre] Bridget Cushanhan > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <C6392F6E-382A-409D-8D4A-155927A36403@xtra.co.nz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Listers, > Endevering to find the birth and parents of the above lady .I know she married 6 july 1920 at Coal Island to John Quinn son of William and Charlotte nee Oneill and thought I had the right parents for her but now am doubting this .Beleave the family came from EDENDARK area > Any help much appreciated > Olwyn > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the COTYRONEIRELAND list administrator, send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the COTYRONEIRELAND mailing list, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 9, Issue 13 > **********************************************

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And, of course, Loretta, it was Presbyterians who took the lead in Ulster in the United Irishmen's Revolt of 1798. But I think there was a large element of self interest in that! Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy -----Original Message----- From: Loretta Layman [mailto:lynneage@h-o-l.com] Sent: 19 April 2015 14:51 To: 'Boyd Gray'; 'Frances McBride'; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [CoTyIre] Church records Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". Regards, Loretta (Lynn) Layman -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records Hi Josephine, No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without studying their history. A few points that may help: 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion. 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you will make more sense of your family history research. Regards, Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride via Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a good! idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Josephine, No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without studying their history. A few points that may help: 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion. 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you will make more sense of your family history research. Regards, Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride via Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a good! idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a good! idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine

Boyd, I apologize for sending this to you twice, but I forgot to include everyone and would really like others to get your reply. Here's mine ... No doubt the Presbyterians were looking after their own interests in 1798, but please clarify something for me. With the revolt, did they achieve any substantial portion of their goals? I've read that, in the aftermath of the revolt, "radical" Presbyterians were now able to enlist in the yeomanry. Of course, as always, not everyone in a particular religion was of the same mind in such matters. In any event, do you think signing the 1812-14 petitions might have been more altruistic than was the revolt? As an aside, I read also that the only area where 1798 "rebels" committed widespread atrocities was in County Wexford. Loretta -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 10:27 AM To: 'Loretta Layman'; 'Frances McBride'; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records And, of course, Loretta, it was Presbyterians who took the lead in Ulster in the United Irishmen's Revolt of 1798. But I think there was a large element of self interest in that! Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy

Boyd and All, Thanks for the insight on the Church of Ireland. What do you know about the Scots who came from Scotland in the early 18th century and the Church of Ireland? I understand my McCord ancestor actually built the Church in Stewartstown. I am guessing it would have been more of a job instead of founding the Church? When he immigrated to the U.S. he then is Presbyterian. Did some leave Ireland for religious reasons? Thanks, Kim McCord Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 19, 2015, at 9:27 AM, cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > > You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoTyroneIreland-D mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, or wish to search or browse the archives or unsubscribe from digest mode and subscribe in list mode, see http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/NIR/CoTyroneIreland.html for links and instructions. See http://cotyroneireland.com/ for our associated web site. > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Church records (Frances McBride) > 2. Re: Church records (Boyd Gray) > 3. Re: Church records (Loretta Layman) > 4. Re: Church records (Boyd Gray) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 12:49:27 +0100 > From: Frances McBride <fjmcbride2@gmail.com> > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com" <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <dlx5k8c9d255vus9y6cb4eih.1429444167973@email.android.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a go! od! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 14:10:07 +0100 > From: "Boyd Gray" <boydgray26@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Frances McBride'" <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, > <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <2B8D2E0D4639423C930D16CCE7FD598A@userPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 09:51:08 -0400 > From: "Loretta Layman" <lynneage@h-o-l.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Boyd Gray'" <boydgray26@gmail.com>, "'Frances McBride'" > <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <003b01d07aa7$e3d74f10$ab85ed30$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. > It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers > of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of > Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing > the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". > That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually > rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". > > Regards, > Loretta (Lynn) Layman > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM > To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; > CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:26:54 +0100 > From: "Boyd Gray" <boydgray26@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > To: "'Loretta Layman'" <lynneage@h-o-l.com>, "'Frances McBride'" > <fjmcbride2@gmail.com>, <CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <599C5643F2B34AD7BA63CCE1B31A0B71@userPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > And, of course, Loretta, it was Presbyterians who took the lead in Ulster in > the United Irishmen's Revolt of 1798. But I think there was a large element > of self interest in that! > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Loretta Layman [mailto:lynneage@h-o-l.com] > Sent: 19 April 2015 14:51 > To: 'Boyd Gray'; 'Frances McBride'; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. > It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers > of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of > Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing > the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". > That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually > rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". > > Regards, > Loretta (Lynn) Layman > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM > To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; > CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records > > Hi Josephine, > > No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without > studying their history. A few points that may help: > > 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the > establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - > the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such > they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the > person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was > almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, > Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life > than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of > Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very > active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such > as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed > instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. > > 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will > reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major > mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple > fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of > Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was > illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older > than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such > as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does > seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form > of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and > Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new > graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family > plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from > where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but > united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the > locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their > religion. > > 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and > yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and > 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then > and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish > Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after > the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, > raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called > the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not > enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. > This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish > church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of > Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, > quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have > discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled > much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were > not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. > > 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics > were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that > almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious > back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. > > As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you > will make more sense of your family history research. > > Regards, > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride > via > Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 > To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com > Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records > > I found when going through church records that people would appear in both > Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the > Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of > Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show > allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the > Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and > ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the > way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not > to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I > was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland > records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in > Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not > religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of > Irish history is a good! > idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine > > > > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the COTYRONEIRELAND list administrator, send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the COTYRONEIRELAND mailing list, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 10, Issue 86 > ***********************************************

Boyd, thank you for these insights, which no doubt are helpful to all of us. It's interesting to think that Presbyterians might have been among signers of the circa 1812-14 "Petition of Protestants of Ireland in Favour of Catholic Emancipation", asking Parliament "to relieve the persons professing the Roman Catholic religion from all civil and political disabilities". That petition fits nicely with your observation : "the locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion". Regards, Loretta (Lynn) Layman -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Boyd Gray via Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 9:10 AM To: 'Frances McBride'; COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com; CoTyroneIreland-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Church records Hi Josephine, No doubt about it, you will never really understand your ancestors without studying their history. A few points that may help: 1. Yes, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the church of the establishment in County Tyrone and indeed the rest of Ulster and Ireland - the senior landlords, the judiciary and the central government and as such they did need to be respected. However, the immediate lessor, that is the person most people paid their rent to, the local farmer in other words, was almost invariably a Presbyterian of Scottish origin in counties like Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Antrim and Down. So they probably figured more in your life than the absentee landlord. Having said that, James Stewart, the Earl of Abercorn, who was the major landowner here in north Tyrone, was a very active and improving landlord who wrote numerous letters to his agents, such as James Stewart (no relation though the same name), giving detailed instructions about the tenants. So, none of this is straightforward. 2. A visit to any Church of Ireland graveyard in this part of Ulster will reveal many Catholic and Presbyterian names. But it would be a major mistake to think these people had converted to Anglicanism. No, the simple fact is that that is where the graveyards were, attached to Church of Ireland churches, quite simply because up until the mid 19th century, it was illegal to bury anywhere else and you will never find many graves much older than 1850 in Presbyterian or Catholic graveyards. There are exceptions such as Grange in Donagheady, which I have been working in recently, which does seem to have been not only Presbyterian but Covenanter (a more strict form of Presbyterian). And of course, when the laws were relaxed, Catholic and Presbyterian people did not dig up their parents and move them to a new graveyard! They continued to and still do continue to bury in the family plot in Church of Ireland graveyards such as Old Clonleigh, a mile from where I write this. One might be tempted to say, separated in life but united in death, were it not for the fact that in my experience, most of the locals actually rubbed along quite well together no matter what their religion. 3. The Church of Ireland was very much a minority religion in Ulster and yet it was the Church of Ireland which ran most services in the 18th and 19th centuries. There was very little central government control back then and no local authority such as county councils. It was the local Parish Church council (Church of Ireland parish) which built roads, looked after the poor, took "foundling children" to the Foundling Hospital in Dublin, raided homes looking for illicit distilling and raised local taxes, called the cess, in order to pay for these services. But, there were simply not enough local Anglican worthies to run the local vestry or parish council. This is why about nine or ten out of the twelve vestrymen in my local parish church records, the Parish of Taughboyne, were usually Presbyterians of Ulster Scots origin. Yes, the Presbyterians ran local affairs because, quite simply, the Anglicans needed them. So, though the law may have discriminated against them, in effect, it was Presbyterians who controlled much of what happened locally. So, yes, you are right, Presbyterians were not discriminated against in the same way as Catholics were. 4. One small point; in many Ulster counties, Presbyterians not Catholics were the majority population. And I think it would be safe to assume that almost everyone, no matter what the denomination, was indeed very religious back in the 19th century. Nevertheless, compromises had to be made. As I said, none of this is simple but if you strive to understand it, you will make more sense of your family history research. Regards, Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy -----Original Message----- From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Frances McBride via Sent: 19 April 2015 12:49 To: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: [CoTyIre] Church records I found when going through church records that people would appear in both Presbyterian or Church of Ireland records. I formed the opinion t hat the Landlords and probably their agents, were, for the most part,Church of Ireland, the established church, and that their tenants were obliged to show allegiance. Just as they were obliged to pay Tithes for the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. Landlords and their agents were powerful people and ordinary people were dependant on their good will. Access to land was the way to earn and prosper. Presbyterians were discriminated against though not to the same degree as Catholics, who formed the bulk of the population. I was always surprised to see all the Scottish names in The Church of Ireland records when I am almost sure they would have been Calvinist when in Scotland. Off course I suppose lots of those who came to Ireland were not religious at all and were more concerned with earning a living. A study of Irish history is a good! idea for anyone who wants to see the whole picture. Josephine ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Barbara, The quote from Boyd's reply dated 18/4/15 sets the context..... '3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public records stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the censuses from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and the rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look here: http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf' Perhaps put up the churches and/or ancestors you are interested in tracking here and we'll all try to help. Kind regards Cathy PS Some Censuses are available. Some only fragmentary on the national Archives site going back to 1821 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/ On 18/04/15 9:24 PM, "Barbara Vaughan via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I believe it's true, however, that the Church of Ireland lost a lot of > records in the 1922 fire. They were required to send all their records > to Dublin for safekeeping, and a lot of parishes didn't keep copies > locally, as they thought it unnecessary. Most of my family was COI, and > most of the relevant churches have no records for the 19th century (the > period I'm interested in). One branch of my family was Presbyterian, and > I've found 19th century records for that family, which were very useful. > > With regard to an entire parish changing religion, it would be possible > for all of them to convert and start a new Presbyterian church, but the > COI parish church doesn't belong to the parish but to the Church of > Ireland, so it would be impossible to convert the building. > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < > cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >>> Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on >>> searching >>> for Irish records is the usually quoted one. >>> >>> I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is >>> 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this >>> they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of >>> the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, >>> marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. >>> >>> >>> Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice >>> from >>> two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. >>> >>> Cathy in NZ >>> >>> >>> On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. >>>> >>>> 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". >>>> >>>> 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final >>>> skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 >>> but >>>> it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in >>>> Dublin. >>>> >>>> 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces >>>> fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public >>> records >>>> stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the >>> censuses >>>> from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are >>>> still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and >>> the >>>> rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in >>>> Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian >>>> baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are >>>> still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look >>>> here: >>>> http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf >>>> >>>> 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the >>>> 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the >>>> majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. >>>> >>>> 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did >>> indeed >>>> give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the >>>> Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these >>> restrictions >>>> by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so >>> the >>>> Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the >>> point, >>>> Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in >>> their >>>> faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only >>>> convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. >>>> >>>> 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland >>>> church: >>>> >>> https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag >>>> hmore/133150336737236 >>>> I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a >>>> Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally >>>> inimical to stern Presbyterianism. >>>> >>>> I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE >>>> genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK >>> and >>>> is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out >>> all >>>> Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all >>>> Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and >>> Church >>>> of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because >>> clergymen >>>> did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or >>>> Presbyterians recorded burials. >>>> >>>> I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I >>> have >>>> cleared up a few misapprehensions. >>>> >>>> Boyd Gray >>>> >>>> http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm >>>> >>>> http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ >>>> >>>> http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com >>>> [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler >>> via >>>> Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 >>>> To: Jessie Engan >>>> Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data >>>> >>>> Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually >>> religious >>>> basis >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via >>>> <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >>>>> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children >>>> of >>>>> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I >>>> understand >>>>> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford >>>> to >>>>> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast >>>> uprising >>>>> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian >>>>> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone >>>>> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became >>> a >>>>> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging >>>>> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER >>>>> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. >>>>> >>>>> ------------- >>>>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> ------------- >>>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> ------------- >>>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------- >>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------- >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Helen, hope springs eternal so the saying goes. I remain optimistic that the records I need will one day miraculously turn up. Although, having searched all the available parish registers for the parishes in the east of Fermanagh and west of Tyrone (at PRONI), I am fairly convinced that my relations must have been in the Parish of Dromore, which registers were in fact destroyed in Dublin. Years ago when I was researching my Cornish forebears I had to go (from Australia) to the Record Office in Truro, Cornwall to research. Now those same original parish registers are all scanned and able to be searched (or browsed) free on familysearch. You just never know ……. Margaret in Oz.

Yes true .....doyens........anyway 'the most respected or prominent person in a particular field' was what I meant! Cheers Cathy On 18/04/15 1:36 PM, "Claire K via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Not doyennes, surely! Last I knew, both Boyd and Robert were men. :-) > > Claire K > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 17, 2015, at 8:16 PM, catherine trewby via > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> ...Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice >> from >> two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd.... > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on searching for Irish records is the usually quoted one. I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice from two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. Cathy in NZ On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. > > 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 but > it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > Dublin. > > 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public records > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the censuses > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and the > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look > here: > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did indeed > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these restrictions > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so the > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the point, > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in their > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > church: > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > hmore/133150336737236 > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK and > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out all > Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and Church > of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because clergymen > did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I have > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler via > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > To: Jessie Engan > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually religious > basis > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children > of >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > understand >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > to >> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > uprising >> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became a >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging >> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. >> >> ------------- >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I believe it's true, however, that the Church of Ireland lost a lot of records in the 1922 fire. They were required to send all their records to Dublin for safekeeping, and a lot of parishes didn't keep copies locally, as they thought it unnecessary. Most of my family was COI, and most of the relevant churches have no records for the 19th century (the period I'm interested in). One branch of my family was Presbyterian, and I've found 19th century records for that family, which were very useful. With regard to an entire parish changing religion, it would be possible for all of them to convert and start a new Presbyterian church, but the COI parish church doesn't belong to the parish but to the Church of Ireland, so it would be impossible to convert the building. On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on >> searching >> for Irish records is the usually quoted one. >> >> I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is >> 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this >> they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of >> the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, >> marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. >> >> >> Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice >> from >> two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. >> >> Cathy in NZ >> >> >> On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> >>> I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. >>> >>> 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". >>> >>> 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final >>> skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 >> but >>> it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in >>> Dublin. >>> >>> 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces >>> fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public >> records >>> stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the >> censuses >>> from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are >>> still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and >> the >>> rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in >>> Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian >>> baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are >>> still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look >>> here: >>> http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf >>> >>> 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the >>> 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the >>> majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. >>> >>> 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did >> indeed >>> give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the >>> Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these >> restrictions >>> by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so >> the >>> Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the >> point, >>> Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in >> their >>> faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only >>> convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. >>> >>> 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland >>> church: >>> >> https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag >>> hmore/133150336737236 >>> I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a >>> Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally >>> inimical to stern Presbyterianism. >>> >>> I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE >>> genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK >> and >>> is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out >> all >>> Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all >>> Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and >> Church >>> of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because >> clergymen >>> did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or >>> Presbyterians recorded burials. >>> >>> I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I >> have >>> cleared up a few misapprehensions. >>> >>> Boyd Gray >>> >>> http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm >>> >>> http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ >>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler >> via >>> Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 >>> To: Jessie Engan >>> Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> >>> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data >>> >>> Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually >> religious >>> basis >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via >>> <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: >>>> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children >>> of >>>> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I >>> understand >>>> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford >>> to >>>> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast >>> uprising >>>> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian >>>> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone >>>> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became >> a >>>> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging >>>> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER >>>> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. >>>> >>>> ------------- >>>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------- >>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------- >>> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------- >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have enjoyed reading the recent posts regarding the availability of records. I sincerely hope that I do not offend anyone with this post. I have been researching my Northern Ireland ancestors since the 1980's. I recently read Jonathan Bardon's book "The Plantation of Ulster". Being a 5th generation Australian we were not taught about this topic which is part of who I am. I therefore found the book extremely informative and rivetting reading. It provided so much historical information and put my research into perspective for me. I am sure that there are countless other equally informative books available. I would certainly recommend becoming familiar with the times we are researching. I am currently in a brick wall position with trying to pinpoint a location for two of my ancestors but have been there before and broken through that wall. This site has been instrumental in me getting as far as I have. My grateful thanks to all. Susan Elliott Melbourne Australia

Hello, Helen, If you have not already done so, check land records on the New Brunswick Provincial Archives website. I found where in Northern Ireland my Grahams came from, on their land petition. Land records are all indexed. NB newspapers are also indexed and often show the location in the old country. Good luck. Shirley ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Helen Edwards via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> To: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:47:25 -0700 I think the reason my search has come up dry is because nobody recorded the information that I need. I hired professional who could find nothing so I must regretfully come to the conclusion that I will likely never find my Irish roots. I know my great-great-grandparents came from County Tyrone but can only find records of their existence in New Brunswick, Canada where they were married in 1833. I so wish I could find parents' names and/or siblings, but so far there is nothing. Helen Kelley Edwards Victoria, BC Canada On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hear hear Boyd. The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on > searching > for Irish records is the usually quoted one. > > I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is > 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around). In believing this > they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of > the chase or 'slow walk, in my case to locate records, check records, > marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. > > > Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice > from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. > > Cathy in NZ > > > On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I have bristled long enough at this thread! Let me try to help. > > > > 1. No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > > > 2. There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922. There were the final > > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 > but > > it was in Dublin not Belfast. The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > > Dublin. > > > > 3. While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public > records > > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the > censuses > > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and > the > > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > > Belfast. And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI. Have a look > > here: > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > > > 4. No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > > > 5. While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did > indeed > > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these > restrictions > > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so > the > > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference. More to the > point, > > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in > their > > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > > > 6. St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > > church: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > > hmore/133150336737236 > > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > > Presbyterian church. Apart from anything else, their design is totally > > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK > and > > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out > all > > Catholic registers online within the year. However, most though not all > > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and > Church > > of Ireland circa 1800. And many of them are lost simply because > clergymen > > did not regard them as very important. And neither Catholics or > > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I > have > > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler > via > > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > > To: Jessie Engan > > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually > religious > > basis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of children > > of > >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > > understand > >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > > to > >> pay. Secondly 40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > > uprising > >> in 1922. Thirdly, in 1820 the government recognized the Presbyterian > >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became > a > >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > >> situation, especially since many web sites only have data AFTER > >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > >> > >> ------------- > >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

-------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4/17/15, cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com <cotyroneireland-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: Subject: COTYRONEIRELAND Digest, Vol 10, Issue 83 To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com Received: Friday, April 17, 2015, 8:59 PM You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoTyroneIreland-D mailing list.  If you no longer wish to receive these messages, or wish to search or browse the archives or unsubscribe from digest mode and subscribe in list mode, see http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/NIR/CoTyroneIreland.html for links and instructions.  See http://cotyroneireland.com/ for our associated web site. Today's Topics:    1. Re: Lack of baptism data (Helen Edwards)    2. NB records show Irish origins (Shirley Smith)    3. Historical background (Susan Elliott)    4. Re: Lack of baptism data (Claire K)    5. Re: Historical background (K Cooper) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:47:25 -0700 From: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data To: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Message-ID:     <CANMFP5QYpmyNoErmZnWZSqr9RhnAEoOtCrNACokJfKNOM3-gRA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think the reason my search has come up dry is because nobody recorded the information that I need. I hired professional who could find nothing so I must regretfully come to the conclusion that I will likely never find my Irish roots. I know my great-great-grandparents came from County Tyrone but can only find records of their existence in New Brunswick, Canada where they were married in 1833. I so wish I could find parents' names and/or siblings, but so far there is nothing. Helen Kelley Edwards Victoria, BC Canada On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hear hear Boyd.  The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on > searching > for Irish records is the usually quoted one. > > I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is > 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around).  In believing this > they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of > the chase or 'slow walk, in my case  to locate records, check records, > marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. > > > Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice > from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. > > Cathy in NZ > > > On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I have bristled long enough at this thread!  Let me try to help. > > > > 1.  No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > > > 2.  There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922.  There were the final > > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 > but > > it was in Dublin not Belfast.  The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > > Dublin. > > > > 3.  While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public > records > > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the > censuses > > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and > the > > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > > Belfast.  And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI.  Have a look > > here: > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > > > 4.  No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > > > 5.  While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did > indeed > > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these > restrictions > > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so > the > > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference.  More to the > point, > > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in > their > > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > > > 6.  St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > > church: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > > hmore/133150336737236 > > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > > Presbyterian church.  Apart from anything else, their design is totally > > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK > and > > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out > all > > Catholic registers online within the year.  However, most though not all > > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and > Church > > of Ireland circa 1800.  And many of them are lost simply because > clergymen > > did not regard them as very important.  And neither Catholics or > > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I > have > > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler > via > > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > > To: Jessie Engan > > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually > religious > > basis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of  children > > of > >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > > understand > >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > > to > >> pay. Secondly  40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > > uprising > >> in 1922.  Thirdly, in 1820 the government  recognized the Presbyterian > >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became > a > >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > >> situation, especially since  many web sites only have data AFTER > >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > >> > >> ------------- > >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 00:55:58 GMT From: "Shirley Smith" <smith_shirley_ross@juno.com> Subject: [CoTyIre] NB records show Irish origins To: cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <20150417.175558.9846.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hello, Helen, If you have not already done so, check land records on the New Brunswick Provincial Archives website.  I found where in Northern Ireland my Grahams came from, on their land petition. Land records are all indexed.  NB newspapers are also indexed and often show the location in the old country.  Good luck.  Shirley ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Helen Edwards via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> To: Helen Edwards <heritagelady@gmail.com> Cc: COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 17:47:25 -0700 I think the reason my search has come up dry is because nobody recorded the information that I need. I hired professional who could find nothing so I must regretfully come to the conclusion that I will likely never find my Irish roots. I know my great-great-grandparents came from County Tyrone but can only find records of their existence in New Brunswick, Canada where they were married in 1833. I so wish I could find parents' names and/or siblings, but so far there is nothing. Helen Kelley Edwards Victoria, BC Canada On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:16 PM, catherine trewby via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hear hear Boyd.  The events of 1922, in Dublin, and its effects on > searching > for Irish records is the usually quoted one. > > I worry that people will be turned off searching in Ireland because it is > 'too hard' (based on the misinformation that is around).  In believing this > they miss out on finding out about their own people, and also the thrill of > the chase or 'slow walk, in my case  to locate records, check records, > marvel at how spellings have changed and have a little detour into history. > > > Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice > from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd. > > Cathy in NZ > > > On 18/04/15 1:14 AM, "Boyd Gray via" <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I have bristled long enough at this thread!  Let me try to help. > > > > 1.  No churches were ever burned in Ireland during any "civil wars". > > > > 2.  There was no "uprising in Belfast" in 1922.  There were the final > > skirmishes in the only civil war in the 19th or 20th centuries in 1922 > but > > it was in Dublin not Belfast.  The brief "Uprising of 1916" was also in > > Dublin. > > > > 3.  While a lot of records were blown up when the Irish Government forces > > fired on the IRA rebels holed up with their magazine in the public > records > > stores in the Four Courts in Dublin in 1922, including four of the > censuses > > from the 19th century, the vast majority of Church of Ireland records are > > still intact and available in the churches and the ones for Tyrone (and > the > > rest of Northern Ireland) are on microfilm for public viewing at PRONI in > > Belfast.  And all of the records ever kept of Catholic and Presbyterian > > baptisms and marriages, and they make up about 90% of the population, are > > still in existence both locally and on microfilm at PRONI.  Have a look > > here: > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf > > > > 4.  No government ever put a tax on the recording of births, which in the > > 1820s was carried out by the Church of Ireland but mostly ignored by the > > majority Catholic and, in Ulster, the Presbyterian population. > > > > 5.  While the Repeal of the Tests and Corporations Acts in 1828 did > indeed > > give more religious freedom to Catholics and Presbyterians, the > > Presbyterians had always in practice been exempted from these > restrictions > > by annual Redemption Acts which wiped out the previous years offenses so > the > > Presbyterians did not in effect notice much difference.  More to the > point, > > Presbyterians tend to thrive on persecution, they believe strongly in > their > > faith and they would most certainly not be so cowed that they would only > > convert to Presbyterianism after any government recognized their church. > > > > 6.  St Michael's Castlecaulfield is still a thriving Church of Ireland > > church: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/St-Michaels-Castlecaulfield-St-Patricks-Donag > > hmore/133150336737236 > > I have never ever heard of any Church of Ireland church becoming a > > Presbyterian church.  Apart from anything else, their design is totally > > inimical to stern Presbyterianism. > > > > I will agree that the biggest gap still to be filled in Irish ONLINE > > genealogy is church records but that is the same for anywhere in the UK > and > > is soon to be partially corrected by an Irish Government project to out > all > > Catholic registers online within the year.  However, most though not all > > Catholic records only begin circa 1850, Presbyterian circa 1830 and > Church > > of Ireland circa 1800.  And many of them are lost simply because > clergymen > > did not regard them as very important.  And neither Catholics or > > Presbyterians recorded burials. > > > > I hope people find this as helpful as it is intended to be and that I > have > > cleared up a few misapprehensions. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > > > http://www.facebook.com/westulstergenealogy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:cotyroneireland-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Luke Fowler > via > > Sent: 17 April 2015 06:01 > > To: Jessie Engan > > Cc: <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data > > > > Most of the churches were also burned during civil wars.. Usually > religious > > basis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:14 pm, Jessie Engan via > > <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Josephine, I have the same problem for baptism records of  children > > of > >> my g g grandmother in Tyrone. There are 2-3 reasons. About 1820 I > > understand > >> the government put a tax on recording births, which many couldn't afford > > to > >> pay. Secondly  40-50% of the records of BMD were burned in Belfast > > uprising > >> in 1922.  Thirdly, in 1820 the government  recognized the Presbyterian > >> church, and many switched to the Presbyterian Church. I visited a Tyrone > >> church, St. Michael's in Castlecaulfield, and it was C of I ,but became > a > >> Presbyterian church after the 1820 change. It is a very discouraging > >> situation, especially since  many web sites only have data AFTER > >> registration became required about 1845. Jessie. > >> > >> ------------- > >> Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------- > > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------- Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 11:16:36 +1000 From: Susan Elliott <robelliott@optusnet.com.au> Subject: [CoTyIre] Historical background To: <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <201504180117.t3I1HQC2004182@mail.rootsweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" I have enjoyed reading the recent posts regarding the availability of records. I sincerely hope that I do not offend anyone with this post. I have been researching my Northern Ireland ancestors since the 1980's. I recently read Jonathan Bardon's book "The Plantation of Ulster".  Being a 5th generation Australian we were not taught about this topic which is part of who I am.  I therefore found the book extremely informative and rivetting reading. It provided so much historical information  and put my research into perspective for me. I am sure that there are countless other equally informative books available. I would certainly recommend becoming familiar with the times we are researching. I am currently in a brick wall position with trying to pinpoint a location for two of my ancestors but have been there before and broken through that wall.  This site has been instrumental in me getting as far as I have. My grateful thanks to all. Susan Elliott Melbourne Australia ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 21:36:45 -0400 From: Claire K <seekay@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Lack of baptism data To: catherine trewby via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Cc: "COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com" <COTYRONEIRELAND@rootsweb.com>,     Jessie Engan <jengan@verizon.net> Message-ID: <D2D08BE9-A398-4F2F-85FD-7E8DCC88C340@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii Not doyennes, surely!  Last I knew, both Boyd and Robert were men. :-) Claire K Sent from my iPhone On Apr 17, 2015, at 8:16 PM, catherine trewby via <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > ...Jessie best wishes for your research......you have had some good advice from > two of the doyennes of Irish research Robert and Boyd.... ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 19:58:24 -0700 From: K Cooper <kaperc@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [CoTyIre] Historical background To: Susan Elliott <robelliott@optusnet.com.au> Cc: CoTyroneIreland List <cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> Message-ID:     <CAHfbYM2GeJOW=EXFiAmvpLvwKkA9Dnqj63=-RVyP1tDmnVOteg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I couldn't agree more, Susan! Google Books is a good source for old books, as well as other free sources. Also, consider looking for family histories for all connected surnames and local histories. For instance, I discovered there is a historical society for Omagh, the area most of my family came from and they recently published a lovely book about the area. Also, there is a Facebook group and website for the Glennely Valley. We need to think outside the box, as trite as that sounds. Kathleen Cooper Researching from Southern California On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Susan Elliott via < cotyroneireland@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I have enjoyed reading the recent posts regarding the availability of > records. > > I sincerely hope that I do not offend anyone with this post. > > I have been researching my Northern Ireland ancestors since the 1980's. > > I recently read Jonathan Bardon's book "The Plantation of Ulster".  Being > a 5th generation Australian we were not taught about this topic which is > part of who I am.  I therefore found the book extremely informative and > rivetting reading. It provided so much historical information  and put my > research into perspective for me. > > I am sure that there are countless other equally informative books > available. I would certainly recommend becoming familiar with the times we > are researching. > > I am currently in a brick wall position with trying to pinpoint a location > for two of my ancestors but have been there before and broken through that > wall.  This site has been instrumental in me getting as far as I have. My > grateful thanks to all. > > Susan Elliott > Melbourne Australia > ------------- > Our community web-site: http://cotyroneireland.com/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTYRONEIRELAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *Cuimhnigh ar na daoine ?nar th?inig t?* *"Remember the men whence you came."* ------------------------------ To contact the COTYRONEIRELAND list administrator, send an email to COTYRONEIRELAND-admin@rootsweb.com. 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