This will be a case of piecing together information from various records to create an argument about who their parents were. I would encourage you to see if you can find their marriage in the parish records which might have the name of the townlands that the groom and bride were living in. Using that, I would go the Griffith Valuation records to see who by their surnames were living in the townlands on the assumption that their fathers would have been land occupiers at that time. (This is where you pray that you don't have a really common name in the area!) There's always a chance that the fathers were deceased by then but the mothers might even be considered the legal tenant. If you can't find the marriage record or if the townlands aren't listed on it, then look at the Griffiths Valuation for the townland where your 3rd great-grandparents were living when that first child was born. Again, see who else by the surname was living there. The valuation records are online at _www.AskaboutIreland.ie_ (http://www.AskaboutIreland.ie) Another piece of the puzzle is to consider the traditional naming pattern of the Irish. If it was followed, the first son was named after the paternal grandfather, the second son after the maternal grandfather. They would also use the same pattern for the daughters - first daughter after the paternal grandmother, the second after the maternal line. They didn't always use this but if there are several people with the same surname in the area, you can use it to narrow your attention to the most likely fathers. You can work backwards with the surname and look at the Tithe Applotment records from the 1820's and 1830's. Not every land occupier was subject to the tithe but most were so it's worth looking at. The tithe records for the civil parish of Kilsheelan have been transcribed at _http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/tipp/KilsheelanTithes.htm_ (http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/tipp/KilsheelanTithes.htm) . The key here is to know that the civil parish of Kilsheelan isn't necessarily identical to the Catholic parish of Kilsheelan - the religious parishes often included several civil parishes so you might have to check a different civil parish on the connorsgenealogy website. Again, the Griffiths Valuation site will supply you with the civil parish name for your townland. The 1821 census for the area was destroyed in the 1922 fire but someone had abstracted information for the civil parish of Kilsheenlan and their work survived. It's for selected surnames but yours might be there. The pages have been transcribed and put online at _http://www.igp-web.com/tipperary/census_1821.htm_ (http://www.igp-web.com/tipperary/census_1821.htm) You didn't mentioned if the family stayed in Ireland or emigrated. If they were listed in the Griffiths Primary Valuation, I would trace their land occupation through the updated valuation records to see who took over their land when they left or died. Often it was another member of the family. These "canceled land books" or "revision lists" have been microfilmed and are available from the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. This may all be familiar territory for you or it may be as confusing as all get-out. It takes some patience but if you can create a picture of all the families by your surname in the area, you may be able to have a strong case for who your family was. If you have questions, let me know. Theresa Liewer Ankeny, Iowa In a message dated 2/1/2012 12:23:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I know that my 3rd-greatgrandparents first child was born and baptized in Kilsheelan parish in 1853 however the parents were born before the time baptismal records exist for this parish. What options do I have for further research on my genealogy? thank you, Jim Please remove extraneous text when replying: Please remember to "snip" short the message to which you are replying, and check the subject line. If you are on Digest mode, a reply to an individual message will repeat the entire digest unless you "snip" it, and the subject will be the Digest ID unless you change it, please. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message