Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. Thanks. > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love affair, > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were negotiated > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > property being exchanged. > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future couple > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was to > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the property > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. Once > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There are > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed together. > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that these > were contracts, not love affairs. > > Janet > > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com nymets22@gmail.com

Would the arranged/dowry marriages have been for all classes? My ancestors were the lowest-level Roman Catholic tenant farmers and I find it hard to believe they could have come up with any kind of dowry. I do have a dowry story, but of the Castletownroche area in County Cork. Around 1877 a man named Sheehan murdered his mother, brother, and sister because his mother wouldn't let him marry his beloved because the proposed dowry was too low. Sheehan and John Duane his gardener (a cousin of my great-grandmother Johanna Duane Mehigan) buried the bodies in an abandoned well. The bodies were discovered seven years later when the owner of the farm where the well was located opened it up to reuse it. Duane was first charged with the murder but was exonerated (He wasn't even charged as an "accessory after the fact" which would happen today.). Sheehan, who had married his beloved and moved to Australia, was brought back to Ireland, convicted, and hung. My cousin showed us the farm and well on our Ireland trip last month. It's now overgrown again but we didn't check for any more bodies. The murder was front-page news in many papers, including the Freemans' Journal (which I discovered when searching the British Newspaper Archive (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ ), a wonderful site that has a lot of old Irish newspapers. It is very well indexed and searches are free and a subscription is very reasonable. You can download .pdf files of pages of interest and articles can also be copied and downloaded to a word processing file for your edit and use.) The murders were known as The Castletownroche Murders and were so interesting because this kind of family murder was extremely rare at that time. The newspaper articles read like court transcripts and were fascinating as was the description of the execution. (If any of you might like a Word file with copies of these articles please email me directly at remeehan@mindspring.com.) Bob Meehan -----Original Message----- From: cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Connors via Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:43 PM To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. Thanks. > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages > in Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee > to the priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a > love affair, but more of a contractual property agreement. You see > this in all the marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. > These were negotiated by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on > the property being exchanged. > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between > the offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > couple did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the > couple was to produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir > would go the property which now includes the dowry, so both father's > have a stake in this. Once that had been accomplished, one often sees > the groom do some outside experimenting, but seemingly never the > bride, as far as we know. There are some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed together. > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these were contracts, not love affairs. > > Janet > > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com nymets22@gmail.com When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bob, Maybe not a true dowry, but perhaps the priest's fee paid by the bride's family and maybe still arranged. About the rest of my message about the surgery. Didn't mean to send it to the whole list. Sorry. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Robert Meehan via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com > wrote: > Would the arranged/dowry marriages have been for all classes? My ancestors > were the lowest-level Roman Catholic tenant farmers and I find it hard to > believe they could have come up with any kind of dowry. > > I do have a dowry story, but of the Castletownroche area in County Cork. > Around 1877 a man named Sheehan murdered his mother, brother, and sister > because his mother wouldn't let him marry his beloved because the proposed > dowry was too low. Sheehan and John Duane his gardener (a cousin of my > great-grandmother Johanna Duane Mehigan) buried the bodies in an abandoned > well. The bodies were discovered seven years later when the owner of the > farm where the well was located opened it up to reuse it. Duane was first > charged with the murder but was exonerated (He wasn't even charged as an > "accessory after the fact" which would happen today.). Sheehan, who had > married his beloved and moved to Australia, was brought back to Ireland, > convicted, and hung. My cousin showed us the farm and well on our Ireland > trip last month. It's now overgrown again but we didn't check for any more > bodies. The murder was front-page news in many papers, including the > Freemans' Journal (which I discovered when searching the British Newspaper > Archive (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ ), a wonderful site > that > has a lot of old Irish newspapers. It is very well indexed and searches are > free and a subscription is very reasonable. You can download .pdf files of > pages of interest and articles can also be copied and downloaded to a word > processing file for your edit and use.) The murders were known as The > Castletownroche Murders and were so interesting because this kind of family > murder was extremely rare at that time. The newspaper articles read like > court transcripts and were fascinating as was the description of the > execution. (If any of you might like a Word file with copies of these > articles please email me directly at remeehan@mindspring.com.) > > Bob Meehan > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Connors via > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:43 PM > To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my > children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing > Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages > > in Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee > > to the priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a > > love affair, but more of a contractual property agreement. You see > > this in all the marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. > > These were negotiated by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on > > the property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between > > the offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > > couple did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the > > couple was to produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir > > would go the property which now includes the dowry, so both father's > > have a stake in this. Once that had been accomplished, one often sees > > the groom do some outside experimenting, but seemingly never the > > bride, as far as we know. There are some unusual DNA results showing up, > however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > > these were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >