Hello researchers, Tying on to a previous thread about illegitimate children, it appears that (if I've found the right family), my great-great grandparents' first child was born a couple months before their early 1843 marriage. So I have a few questions related to this. 1. Did you find examples of children baptized before their parents were wed? How common might such out-of-wedlock baptisms have been? (There's no notation in the Church record indicating illegitimacy for this child at his baptism.) 2. Did parents still follow Irish naming convention in such cases (if they were so inclined)? 3. How closely have you found that your Irish ancestors followed that Irish naming convention? To what extent were there exceptions (and/or interruptions of the convention), and did you find good explanations for these? If so, what were examples of / reasons for the exceptions? 4. How common would it have been for couples to live together before marriage.especially if the woman was pregnant? If they still resided separately, would the baptismal record more likely show the address of the mother or father? 5. Did the Great Famine years seem to provoke more frequent changes of residence? In what other ways have you found that the Famine affected families at least as per found (or missing) church records, etc. Did it affect such things as Baptisms or Parish record keeping? In the case of the family I'm researching (John Ryan m. Mary Ryan, 1843, Upperchurch Parish), the first child was born about 2 months before their wedding. He was named "Lancelot". Though I've seen some "Lanty" Ryans in Griffiths, etc., the name generally seems unusual for this family, given their use of much more common / conventional names for the rest of their 11 children; and it doesn't appear in their son's family. Given that Lancelot is the first son born to the couple, however, I'm wondering if indeed, his grandfather's name was Lancelot; given the naming convention which would appear to have been followed at least roughly for the rest of the family. For example, 3rd son was named after his father; 5th (but not 3rd) daughter named after mother; first daughter appears to be named after one of the grandmothers. Also, the address reported at that first baptism was "Ballybay", presumably (Balliboy / Ballyboy). Ballyboy is a townland 6.5 km SE of Coumnageeha, the townland where the family were residing at a majority of the other baptisms. The baptism of a middle daughter, however, in 1851, shows Drumbane for address. Drumbane is 7.5 km S-SE of Ballyboy, 12.2 km SE of Coumnageeha. All information / opinions about this are appreciated. Roger Hoffmann -Researching ancestors of Dennis Ryan, born 1848-51, Upperchurch Parish, Co. Tipperary; died Syracuse, NY 1928.

In response to your first question, I was helping a friend whose grandfather was from County Donegal. Going through the parish records on film at the National Library, a good 20 percent of the baptisms on the pages I looked at said the children were illegimate. Theresa Liewer Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -----Original Message----- From: Roger Hoffmann via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> To: cotipperary <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Aug 23, 2014 07:21 PM Subject: [COTIPPERARY] Out of wedlock - questions <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_e4a13412-f0eb-492a-b038-d058e385126b" style="margin: 0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: #000;background-color: #fff;"> <pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Hello researchers, Tying on to a previous thread about illegitimate children, it appears that (if I've found the right family), my great-great grandparents' first child was born a couple months before their early 1843 marriage. So I have a few questions related to this. 1. Did you find examples of children baptized before their parents were wed? How common might such out-of-wedlock baptisms have been? (There's no notation in the Church record indicating illegitimacy for this child at his baptism.) 2. Did parents still follow Irish naming convention in such cases (if they were so inclined)? 3. How closely have you found that your Irish ancestors followed that Irish naming convention? To what extent were there exceptions (and/or interruptions of the convention), and did you find good explanations for these? If so, what were examples of / reasons for the exceptions? 4. How common would it have been for couples to live together before marriage.especially if the woman was pregnant? If they still resided separately, would the baptismal record more likely show the address of the mother or father? 5. Did the Great Famine years seem to provoke more frequent changes of residence? In what other ways have you found that the Famine affected families at least as per found (or missing) church records, etc. Did it affect such things as Baptisms or Parish record keeping? In the case of the family I'm researching (John Ryan m. Mary Ryan, 1843, Upperchurch Parish), the first child was born about 2 months before their wedding. He was named "Lancelot". Though I've seen some "Lanty" Ryans in Griffiths, etc., the name generally seems unusual for this family, given their use of much more common / conventional names for the rest of their 11 children; and it doesn't appear in their son's family. Given that Lancelot is the first son born to the couple, however, I'm wondering if indeed, his grandfather's name was Lancelot; given the naming convention which would appear to have been followed at least roughly for the rest of the family. For example, 3rd son was named after his father; 5th (but not 3rd) daughter named after mother; first daughter appears to be named after one of the grandmothers. Also, the address reported at that first baptism was "Ballybay", presumably (Balliboy / Ballyboy). Ballyboy is a townland 6.5 km SE of Coumnageeha, the townland where the family were residing at a majority of the other baptisms. The baptism of a middle daughter, however, in 1851, shows Drumbane for address. Drumbane is 7.5 km S-SE of Ballyboy, 12.2 km SE of Coumnageeha. All information / opinions about this are appreciated. Roger Hoffmann -Researching ancestors of Dennis Ryan, born 1848-51, Upperchurch Parish, Co. Tipperary; died Syracuse, NY 1928. When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at <a href="http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary" target="_blank">http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary</a> ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to <a href="mailto:COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com">COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com</a> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message </tt></pre> <!-- end of AOLMsgPart_1_e4a13412-f0eb-492a-b038-d058e385126b --> </div>