Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last April. Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. Cancer clear. Heart strong again. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been > doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love > affair, > > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were > negotiated > > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > > property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future couple > > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was > to > > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the > property > > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. Once > > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There > are > > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these > > were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Janet, God Bless you for all you have been through, you dont know me, but I will keep you in my prayers. Lorri -Tipp list ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Crawford via" <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> To: "Pat Connors" <nymets22@gmail.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. > > Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put > back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last > April. > Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day > after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. > I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. > Cancer clear. Heart strong again. > > Janet > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via > <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > >> Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in >> my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been >> doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged >> marriages. >> Thanks. >> >> >> > >> > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages >> > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages >> > in >> > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to >> > the >> > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love >> affair, >> > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the >> > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were >> negotiated >> > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. >> > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on >> > the >> > property being exchanged. >> > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the >> > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future >> > couple >> > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple >> > was >> to >> > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the >> property >> > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. >> > Once >> > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside >> > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There >> are >> > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. >> > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed >> together. >> > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he >> > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. >> > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that >> these >> > were contracts, not love affairs. >> > >> > Janet >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Pat Connors, Sacramento CA >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com >> nymets22@gmail.com >> >> >> >> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >> with. >> Thank You. >> >> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned > with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Amen........I agree.......folks who have genealogy as a hobby all passed sharing in preschool. Blair On 26/08/2014 2:48 PM, Lorri via wrote: > Janet, God Bless you for all you have been through, you dont know me, but I > will keep you in my prayers. > Lorri -Tipp list > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janet Crawford via" <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > To: "Pat Connors" <nymets22@gmail.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM > Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > > >> Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. >> >> Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put >> back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last >> April. >> Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day >> after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. >> I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. >> Cancer clear. Heart strong again. >> >> Janet >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via >> <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in >>> my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been >>> doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged >>> marriages. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>>> There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages >>>> pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages >>>> in >>>> Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to >>>> the >>>> priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love >>> affair, >>>> but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the >>>> marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were >>> negotiated >>>> by the fathers of the future bride and groom. >>>> Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on >>>> the >>>> property being exchanged. >>>> It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the >>>> offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future >>>> couple >>>> did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple >>>> was >>> to >>>> produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the >>> property >>>> which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. >>>> Once >>>> that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside >>>> experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There >>> are >>>> some unusual DNA results showing up, however. >>>> The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed >>> together. >>>> Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he >>>> could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. >>>> Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that >>> these >>>> were contracts, not love affairs. >>>> >>>> Janet >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Pat Connors, Sacramento CA >>> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com >>> nymets22@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >>> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >>> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >>> with. >>> Thank You. >>> >>> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >> with. >> Thank You. >> >> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Blair Howard

Dowry and Marriage Contributors: DÓC, TOR. Dowry (generally called ‘fortune’ in Ireland; spré in Irish) is money or property brought by a bride to her husband at marriage. It was an important matter in nineteenth-century Ireland. There were new trends in marriage rates after the Famine. In 1845, the average male age at marriage was 25, the average female age 21. However, by 1914 the typical male married at 33, and the female at 28. In 1851 only 12% of women between the ages 25 and 54 did not marry but in 1911 this had increased to 26%. Parents now left their farms to one son, and the others had the choice of marrying a female who inherited a farm (and this meant a financial settlement), moving to the city or town, taking up a profession, emigrating, or joining a religious order. Heirs tended to postpone marriage until parents died and were generally unwilling to make dowryless marriages that would worsen their financial position or lower their status. It became increasingly difficult to marry outside one’s own social class. Before the Famine it was quite usual for well-off farmers to bring in matchmakers to ensure that their children married well; but after the Famine most families did this. The dowry became a chief consideration when choosing a partner and farmers’ children preferred not to marry rather than marry beneath them. Full reading is available at this link~ http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Dowry_and_Marriage Cheers Cara

Thanks for the interesting information on marriage in Ireland in the 19th century. I've been wondering about my great grandparents' marriage: James Whelan, age 24 and Honora Keating, age 19 married on 11 February 1860 in the Chapel of Bansha James was the oldest son of Thomas Whelan and Alice Ryan. His father was still alive and had a farm in Barnlough. James did not inherit the farm, his younger brother Patrick eventually did (around the time of his marriage). James never had a farm. The first child was born in November 1860 and named after his maternal grandfather. William Keating had farms in Carriganagh and Barnlough. The next child arrived 6 years later and was named after the paternal grandfather. His birth record said he was "assisting his father in law who is a larger farmer". In 1867, James, and his brother in law forcibly took over the farm of James' younger brother in Tankerstown (this is from petty sessions). His brother file a complaint and they both agreed to let the parish priest decide what to do. Thomas kept the farm. By 1870 James is a shopkeeper in the village of Bansha, until his death in 1881. His last child was born that May. Honora (Anne) died in 1888. All the child emigrated. It seems strange that they would marry when James did not have a farm. I've wondered why they married when he did not have a farm. Mary

WOW. You must feel that the MAc truck went over you and then backed up. What a survivor. Keep up the good work. You are precious to a great many people. Diane wixted -----Original Message----- From: Janet Crawford via Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM To: Pat Connors ; cotipperary@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last April. Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. Cancer clear. Heart strong again. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been > doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love > affair, > > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were > negotiated > > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > > property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > > couple > > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was > to > > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the > property > > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. > > Once > > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There > are > > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these > > were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned > with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Janet Delighted to hear you have made such a good recovery. Best regards Clare On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Janet Crawford via < cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. > > Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put > back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last April. > Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day > after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. > I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. > Cancer clear. Heart strong again. > > Janet > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com > > > wrote: > > > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > > my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been > > doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged > marriages. > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages > in > > > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to > the > > > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love > > affair, > > > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > > > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were > > negotiated > > > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on > the > > > property being exchanged. > > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > > > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > couple > > > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple > was > > to > > > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the > > property > > > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. > Once > > > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > > > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There > > are > > > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > > together. > > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > > these > > > were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > > > Janet > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned > with. > > Thank You. > > > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >