Hi Bob, Maybe not a true dowry, but perhaps the priest's fee paid by the bride's family and maybe still arranged. About the rest of my message about the surgery. Didn't mean to send it to the whole list. Sorry. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Robert Meehan via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com > wrote: > Would the arranged/dowry marriages have been for all classes? My ancestors > were the lowest-level Roman Catholic tenant farmers and I find it hard to > believe they could have come up with any kind of dowry. > > I do have a dowry story, but of the Castletownroche area in County Cork. > Around 1877 a man named Sheehan murdered his mother, brother, and sister > because his mother wouldn't let him marry his beloved because the proposed > dowry was too low. Sheehan and John Duane his gardener (a cousin of my > great-grandmother Johanna Duane Mehigan) buried the bodies in an abandoned > well. The bodies were discovered seven years later when the owner of the > farm where the well was located opened it up to reuse it. Duane was first > charged with the murder but was exonerated (He wasn't even charged as an > "accessory after the fact" which would happen today.). Sheehan, who had > married his beloved and moved to Australia, was brought back to Ireland, > convicted, and hung. My cousin showed us the farm and well on our Ireland > trip last month. It's now overgrown again but we didn't check for any more > bodies. The murder was front-page news in many papers, including the > Freemans' Journal (which I discovered when searching the British Newspaper > Archive (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ ), a wonderful site > that > has a lot of old Irish newspapers. It is very well indexed and searches are > free and a subscription is very reasonable. You can download .pdf files of > pages of interest and articles can also be copied and downloaded to a word > processing file for your edit and use.) The murders were known as The > Castletownroche Murders and were so interesting because this kind of family > murder was extremely rare at that time. The newspaper articles read like > court transcripts and were fascinating as was the description of the > execution. (If any of you might like a Word file with copies of these > articles please email me directly at remeehan@mindspring.com.) > > Bob Meehan > > -----Original Message----- > From: cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Connors via > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:43 PM > To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my > children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing > Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages > > in Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee > > to the priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a > > love affair, but more of a contractual property agreement. You see > > this in all the marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. > > These were negotiated by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on > > the property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between > > the offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > > couple did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the > > couple was to produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir > > would go the property which now includes the dowry, so both father's > > have a stake in this. Once that had been accomplished, one often sees > > the groom do some outside experimenting, but seemingly never the > > bride, as far as we know. There are some unusual DNA results showing up, > however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > > these were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last April. Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. Cancer clear. Heart strong again. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been > doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love > affair, > > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were > negotiated > > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > > property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future couple > > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was > to > > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the > property > > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. Once > > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There > are > > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these > > were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

WOW. You must feel that the MAc truck went over you and then backed up. What a survivor. Keep up the good work. You are precious to a great many people. Diane wixted -----Original Message----- From: Janet Crawford via Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM To: Pat Connors ; cotipperary@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last April. Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. Cancer clear. Heart strong again. Janet On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in > my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been > doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. > Thanks. > > > > > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love > affair, > > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were > negotiated > > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > > property being exchanged. > > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > > couple > > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was > to > > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the > property > > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. > > Once > > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There > are > > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed > together. > > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these > > were contracts, not love affairs. > > > > Janet > > > > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > nymets22@gmail.com > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned > with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Janet, God Bless you for all you have been through, you dont know me, but I will keep you in my prayers. Lorri -Tipp list ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Crawford via" <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> To: "Pat Connors" <nymets22@gmail.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. > > Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put > back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last > April. > Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day > after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. > I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. > Cancer clear. Heart strong again. > > Janet > > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via > <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > >> Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in >> my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been >> doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged >> marriages. >> Thanks. >> >> >> > >> > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages >> > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages >> > in >> > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to >> > the >> > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love >> affair, >> > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the >> > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were >> negotiated >> > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. >> > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on >> > the >> > property being exchanged. >> > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the >> > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future >> > couple >> > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple >> > was >> to >> > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the >> property >> > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. >> > Once >> > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside >> > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There >> are >> > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. >> > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed >> together. >> > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he >> > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. >> > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that >> these >> > were contracts, not love affairs. >> > >> > Janet >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Pat Connors, Sacramento CA >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com >> nymets22@gmail.com >> >> >> >> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >> with. >> Thank You. >> >> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned > with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Amen........I agree.......folks who have genealogy as a hobby all passed sharing in preschool. Blair On 26/08/2014 2:48 PM, Lorri via wrote: > Janet, God Bless you for all you have been through, you dont know me, but I > will keep you in my prayers. > Lorri -Tipp list > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janet Crawford via" <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > To: "Pat Connors" <nymets22@gmail.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 3:28 PM > Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock > > >> Hi Pat, Same way in England and Scotland. >> >> Had MAJOR heart surgery last September - 11 hours, blood drained and put >> back in and me brought back to life. Then Breast cancer surgery last >> April. >> Was on blood thinners from the heart surgery, so started to bleed the day >> after surgery and so had a 2nd surgery the next day. >> I am almost back to normal again except for a couple of little things. >> Cancer clear. Heart strong again. >> >> Janet >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Pat Connors via >> <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in >>> my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been >>> doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged >>> marriages. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>>> There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages >>>> pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages >>>> in >>>> Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to >>>> the >>>> priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love >>> affair, >>>> but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the >>>> marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were >>> negotiated >>>> by the fathers of the future bride and groom. >>>> Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on >>>> the >>>> property being exchanged. >>>> It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the >>>> offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future >>>> couple >>>> did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple >>>> was >>> to >>>> produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the >>> property >>>> which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. >>>> Once >>>> that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside >>>> experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There >>> are >>>> some unusual DNA results showing up, however. >>>> The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed >>> together. >>>> Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he >>>> could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. >>>> Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that >>> these >>>> were contracts, not love affairs. >>>> >>>> Janet >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Pat Connors, Sacramento CA >>> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com >>> nymets22@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >>> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >>> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >>> with. >>> Thank You. >>> >>> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: >> 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. >> 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned >> with. >> Thank You. >> >> All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- Blair Howard

Would the arranged/dowry marriages have been for all classes? My ancestors were the lowest-level Roman Catholic tenant farmers and I find it hard to believe they could have come up with any kind of dowry. I do have a dowry story, but of the Castletownroche area in County Cork. Around 1877 a man named Sheehan murdered his mother, brother, and sister because his mother wouldn't let him marry his beloved because the proposed dowry was too low. Sheehan and John Duane his gardener (a cousin of my great-grandmother Johanna Duane Mehigan) buried the bodies in an abandoned well. The bodies were discovered seven years later when the owner of the farm where the well was located opened it up to reuse it. Duane was first charged with the murder but was exonerated (He wasn't even charged as an "accessory after the fact" which would happen today.). Sheehan, who had married his beloved and moved to Australia, was brought back to Ireland, convicted, and hung. My cousin showed us the farm and well on our Ireland trip last month. It's now overgrown again but we didn't check for any more bodies. The murder was front-page news in many papers, including the Freemans' Journal (which I discovered when searching the British Newspaper Archive (http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ ), a wonderful site that has a lot of old Irish newspapers. It is very well indexed and searches are free and a subscription is very reasonable. You can download .pdf files of pages of interest and articles can also be copied and downloaded to a word processing file for your edit and use.) The murders were known as The Castletownroche Murders and were so interesting because this kind of family murder was extremely rare at that time. The newspaper articles read like court transcripts and were fascinating as was the description of the execution. (If any of you might like a Word file with copies of these articles please email me directly at remeehan@mindspring.com.) Bob Meehan -----Original Message----- From: cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:cotipperary-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Connors via Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:43 PM To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] COTIPPERARY Births out of wedlock Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. Thanks. > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages > in Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee > to the priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a > love affair, but more of a contractual property agreement. You see > this in all the marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. > These were negotiated by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on > the property being exchanged. > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between > the offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future > couple did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the > couple was to produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir > would go the property which now includes the dowry, so both father's > have a stake in this. Once that had been accomplished, one often sees > the groom do some outside experimenting, but seemingly never the > bride, as far as we know. There are some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed together. > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that > these were contracts, not love affairs. > > Janet > > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com nymets22@gmail.com When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Janet, many thanks for this, I have printed it out and will include it in my children's family history books. In all the years that I have been doing Irish family history, I really didn't know about arranged marriages. Thanks. > > There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages > pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in > Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the > priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love affair, > but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the > marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were negotiated > by the fathers of the future bride and groom. > Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the > property being exchanged. > It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the > offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future couple > did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was to > produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the property > which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. Once > that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside > experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There are > some unusual DNA results showing up, however. > The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed together. > Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he > could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. > Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that these > were contracts, not love affairs. > > Janet > > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com nymets22@gmail.com

Dear List Members, I tried searching for this couple, who had a son christened in Clonmel in 1801. But I haven’t had much luck. Even tried searching for the death record for Denis O’BRIEN, but none appeared to be old enough, and, well Ellen O’BRIEN turned up 242 hits. One clue I have on Ellen DWYER is that a Matthew DWYER and Catherine LEE were witnesses to their son’s christening. Anybody know any secrets on how to find the right people? Regards, Lance

There are a couple of things we need to keep in mind about marriages pre-1900, and I pick that date rather arbitrarily. Most all marriages in Ireland were arranged and included a dowry of some sort and a fee to the priest, particularly if he arranged the marriage. It was not a love affair, but more of a contractual property agreement. You see this in all the marriage settlement documents filed with the courts. These were negotiated by the fathers of the future bride and groom. Anything that interfered with the marriage messed up the contract on the property being exchanged. It appears that often there was a period, sometimes lengthy between the offer of marriage and the actual ceremony, but could be the future couple did some experimenting prior to the ceremony. The goal of the couple was to produce a male heir...period. To the eldest male heir would go the property which now includes the dowry, so both father's have a stake in this. Once that had been accomplished, one often sees the groom do some outside experimenting, but seemingly never the bride, as far as we know. There are some unusual DNA results showing up, however. The priest was able to keep his fee as long as the couple stayed together. Often they went to live apart and the priest could get a 2nd fee if he could get them back together again when they renewed their vows. Sorry if I may have repeated some things, but I need to impress that these were contracts, not love affairs. Janet

I now realise that the web address I gave in my very recent communication cannot be opened. Here it is again. Hope it works this time. It explains a lot of customs regarding marriage and the birth of children. http://thewitness.org/archive/april2000/marriage.html. There was a time when the marriage ceremony took place in the bride's home, followed by a barn dance. The Church clamped down on that in the early 19th century, mainly because the amount of alcohol consumed even before the ceremony began. From then on it was to be in Church only. Now all that has changed again very recently, with a huge choice of venues available. We need to do a lot more research, to try and discover what it was really like back then. If the above web site fails to open, go back to last Saturday's letter from Jim Leahy who very kindly gave it. Betty G.

Thanks, Betty for your remarks and the link to the document...very interesting. By the way, the correct url is: http://thewitness.org/archive/april2000/marriage.html . It's a good explanation, and I found these few lines particularly interesting: **** "It has also been forgotten that about half of all brides in Britain and North America were pregnant at their weddings in the 18th century." "The Hardwicke Marriage Act of 1753 required registration of all marriages in England and Wales, and set up a bureaucratic apparatus for doing so. The creeping extension of the bureaucratic state to encompass the entry into marriage is characteristic of the apparatus of modernity. ... While the working classes continued to practice alternatives to legal marriage, the stigma of illegitimacy now attached itself to children whose parents had not been through a wedding ceremony. Gone was the transitional phase from singleness to marriage. The achievement of the widespread belief that a marriage begins with a wedding was not so much a religious or theological, but a class matter. The upper and middle classes had the political clout to enforce the social respectability of the new marriage laws, and they used it. As John Gillis writes, "From the mid-18th century onwards sexual politics became increasingly bitter as the propertied classes attempted to impose their standards on the rest of society." **** This helps shed some light on the case I'm researching. If, as your remarks and the above research state, among the working classes in the early 1840s there was more retention of the earlier-accepted notion of betrothal, and implicit acceptance of conjugal relations and/or cohabitation, then a birth (and baptism) before the wedding ceremony would not be all that unusual; though I suppose the degree of acceptance or stigma attached would vary from place to place. Also, if in fact there was no significant stigma or shame attached, then I suppose the name of this first-born son might well reflect the father's father's or mother's father's name. Lancelot.Ryan... Hmmm. Thanks again, Roger H. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:15:47 +0100 > From: Betty Gough <goughb@eircom.net> > Subject: [COTIPPERARY] Marriage Customs in the past...... > To: "COTIPPERARY@rootsweb.com" <COTIPPERARY@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <65E53A5A-5DD3-4FA2-8DD9-958D57FDCB7B@eircom.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > We make many assumptions. In order to understand the customs in our > ancestors time, we need to do documented research. I would recommend the > web site - > http://thewitness.org/archieve/april2000/marriage.html > It explains the time between the promise made and the actual wedding. > It would appear that the upper class did not consummate the union until > after the wedding, while the lower classes did otherwise, in many cases. > I had a great grandmother who had a daughter four years before she > married. The husband was the father of that child. Obviously the > child died, or disappeared, because they called their first child within > the marriage the same first name. The child born outside the marriage had > the father's sir name and was listed as the father. His brother and a > neighbour were sponsors at the baptism. There were no remarks by the > priest on the baptismal entry. My husbands great uncle was born three > months before the marriage of the parents. Again, no offensive comments > on the entry. > > Back then in the mid to late 1800's It appeared to be common enough in the > Catholic church baptismal records. The above mentioned families were > middle class,and would be seen as respectable in their community at the > time. Class was denoted by the ownership of property, or professional > qualifications. > > It would appear that the homes for unmarried mothers and the stigma > attached to same brought about a change in the attitude of society. > From what I have read, I have come to the conclusion (open to debate) that > the clergy at the time began to crack the whip in an effort to reduce the > births outside of marriage. The other influence was from the upper > class, who did not approve. Having servant girls getting pregnant at > the drop of a hat, (or should I say pants) was most inconvenient. > > This is an area in our social history of the past that needs a lot more > research. I believed that all baptised adults and members of the > Catholic faith who could provide proof that they were not already married > to a living person were entitled to marry within the R.C. Church. I > imagine it was the same in the Anglican Church. That was the purpose of > letters of freedom or banns being read. > Sorry for going on so long. Hope my discovery might help others. > Betty Gough > > >

We make many assumptions. In order to understand the customs in our ancestors time, we need to do documented research. I would recommend the web site - http://thewitness.org/archieve/april2000/marriage.html It explains the time between the promise made and the actual wedding. It would appear that the upper class did not consummate the union until after the wedding, while the lower classes did otherwise, in many cases. I had a great grandmother who had a daughter four years before she married. The husband was the father of that child. Obviously the child died, or disappeared, because they called their first child within the marriage the same first name. The child born outside the marriage had the father's sir name and was listed as the father. His brother and a neighbour were sponsors at the baptism. There were no remarks by the priest on the baptismal entry. My husbands great uncle was born three months before the marriage of the parents. Again, no offensive comments on the entry. Back then in the mid to late 1800's It appeared to be common enough in the Catholic church baptismal records. The above mentioned families were middle class,and would be seen as respectable in their community at the time. Class was denoted by the ownership of property, or professional qualifications. It would appear that the homes for unmarried mothers and the stigma attached to same brought about a change in the attitude of society. From what I have read, I have come to the conclusion (open to debate) that the clergy at the time began to crack the whip in an effort to reduce the births outside of marriage. The other influence was from the upper class, who did not approve. Having servant girls getting pregnant at the drop of a hat, (or should I say pants) was most inconvenient. This is an area in our social history of the past that needs a lot more research. I believed that all baptised adults and members of the Catholic faith who could provide proof that they were not already married to a living person were entitled to marry within the R.C. Church. I imagine it was the same in the Anglican Church. That was the purpose of letters of freedom or banns being read. Sorry for going on so long. Hope my discovery might help others. Betty Gough

In response to your first question, I was helping a friend whose grandfather was from County Donegal. Going through the parish records on film at the National Library, a good 20 percent of the baptisms on the pages I looked at said the children were illegimate. Theresa Liewer Sent from AOL Mobile Mail -----Original Message----- From: Roger Hoffmann via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> To: cotipperary <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Aug 23, 2014 07:21 PM Subject: [COTIPPERARY] Out of wedlock - questions <div id="AOLMsgPart_1_e4a13412-f0eb-492a-b038-d058e385126b" style="margin: 0px;font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif;font-size: 12px;color: #000;background-color: #fff;"> <pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Hello researchers, Tying on to a previous thread about illegitimate children, it appears that (if I've found the right family), my great-great grandparents' first child was born a couple months before their early 1843 marriage. So I have a few questions related to this. 1. Did you find examples of children baptized before their parents were wed? How common might such out-of-wedlock baptisms have been? (There's no notation in the Church record indicating illegitimacy for this child at his baptism.) 2. Did parents still follow Irish naming convention in such cases (if they were so inclined)? 3. How closely have you found that your Irish ancestors followed that Irish naming convention? To what extent were there exceptions (and/or interruptions of the convention), and did you find good explanations for these? If so, what were examples of / reasons for the exceptions? 4. How common would it have been for couples to live together before marriage.especially if the woman was pregnant? If they still resided separately, would the baptismal record more likely show the address of the mother or father? 5. Did the Great Famine years seem to provoke more frequent changes of residence? In what other ways have you found that the Famine affected families at least as per found (or missing) church records, etc. Did it affect such things as Baptisms or Parish record keeping? In the case of the family I'm researching (John Ryan m. Mary Ryan, 1843, Upperchurch Parish), the first child was born about 2 months before their wedding. He was named "Lancelot". Though I've seen some "Lanty" Ryans in Griffiths, etc., the name generally seems unusual for this family, given their use of much more common / conventional names for the rest of their 11 children; and it doesn't appear in their son's family. Given that Lancelot is the first son born to the couple, however, I'm wondering if indeed, his grandfather's name was Lancelot; given the naming convention which would appear to have been followed at least roughly for the rest of the family. For example, 3rd son was named after his father; 5th (but not 3rd) daughter named after mother; first daughter appears to be named after one of the grandmothers. Also, the address reported at that first baptism was "Ballybay", presumably (Balliboy / Ballyboy). Ballyboy is a townland 6.5 km SE of Coumnageeha, the townland where the family were residing at a majority of the other baptisms. The baptism of a middle daughter, however, in 1851, shows Drumbane for address. Drumbane is 7.5 km S-SE of Ballyboy, 12.2 km SE of Coumnageeha. All information / opinions about this are appreciated. Roger Hoffmann -Researching ancestors of Dennis Ryan, born 1848-51, Upperchurch Parish, Co. Tipperary; died Syracuse, NY 1928. When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. Thank You. All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at <a href="http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary" target="_blank">http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary</a> ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to <a href="mailto:COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com">COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com</a> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message </tt></pre> <!-- end of AOLMsgPart_1_e4a13412-f0eb-492a-b038-d058e385126b --> </div>

Hello researchers, Tying on to a previous thread about illegitimate children, it appears that (if I've found the right family), my great-great grandparents' first child was born a couple months before their early 1843 marriage. So I have a few questions related to this. 1. Did you find examples of children baptized before their parents were wed? How common might such out-of-wedlock baptisms have been? (There's no notation in the Church record indicating illegitimacy for this child at his baptism.) 2. Did parents still follow Irish naming convention in such cases (if they were so inclined)? 3. How closely have you found that your Irish ancestors followed that Irish naming convention? To what extent were there exceptions (and/or interruptions of the convention), and did you find good explanations for these? If so, what were examples of / reasons for the exceptions? 4. How common would it have been for couples to live together before marriage.especially if the woman was pregnant? If they still resided separately, would the baptismal record more likely show the address of the mother or father? 5. Did the Great Famine years seem to provoke more frequent changes of residence? In what other ways have you found that the Famine affected families at least as per found (or missing) church records, etc. Did it affect such things as Baptisms or Parish record keeping? In the case of the family I'm researching (John Ryan m. Mary Ryan, 1843, Upperchurch Parish), the first child was born about 2 months before their wedding. He was named "Lancelot". Though I've seen some "Lanty" Ryans in Griffiths, etc., the name generally seems unusual for this family, given their use of much more common / conventional names for the rest of their 11 children; and it doesn't appear in their son's family. Given that Lancelot is the first son born to the couple, however, I'm wondering if indeed, his grandfather's name was Lancelot; given the naming convention which would appear to have been followed at least roughly for the rest of the family. For example, 3rd son was named after his father; 5th (but not 3rd) daughter named after mother; first daughter appears to be named after one of the grandmothers. Also, the address reported at that first baptism was "Ballybay", presumably (Balliboy / Ballyboy). Ballyboy is a townland 6.5 km SE of Coumnageeha, the townland where the family were residing at a majority of the other baptisms. The baptism of a middle daughter, however, in 1851, shows Drumbane for address. Drumbane is 7.5 km S-SE of Ballyboy, 12.2 km SE of Coumnageeha. All information / opinions about this are appreciated. Roger Hoffmann -Researching ancestors of Dennis Ryan, born 1848-51, Upperchurch Parish, Co. Tipperary; died Syracuse, NY 1928.

This subject is of interest since I discovered that my g-grandmother was born 18 months prior to her parents' marriage in 1841. They married 13 months prior to her younger brother being born in 1842. I have looked at the Parish Baptismal and Marriage registers on microfilm at NLI and there is no mention of illegitimacy in her birth record; in other cases this was plainly noted in the record. An article which I thought provided a possible explanation, at least to me, is: http://thewitness.org/archive/april2000/marriage.html I will be interested in comments. If any of you have additional references on Irish Birth, Marriage and Death customs in the 1700's and 1800's please share them. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Crawford via" <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> To: "Jan Fortado" <janfortado2007@hotmail.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] Out of wedlock (Janet's interesting comments) > Jan, She would be at the least a "fallen woman" and you may, with > checking, > find she was also illegitimate. The only other circumstance I have run > across was a man having children with a woman and they were not yet > married. Even after they legally married it was said he had "married in > the > low life". I can't find her parents, so I believe she herself was > illegitimate. > > Janet

Jan, She would be at the least a "fallen woman" and you may, with checking, find she was also illegitimate. The only other circumstance I have run across was a man having children with a woman and they were not yet married. Even after they legally married it was said he had "married in the low life". I can't find her parents, so I believe she herself was illegitimate. Janet On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Jan Fortado via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > I had never heard that an illegitimate child could not marry someone who > was born legitimately. Very interesting.That information prompted me to > think that a hypothesis I have for a West Cork marriage might be correct. > Wouldit be likely that a child born out of wedlock could marry a woman who > was born legitimately but who herself hada child out of wedlock? My > ggrandfather was born out of wedlock. We think he married a woman who was > baptized in the RC church butwho had a child out of wedlock. (She, as a > domestic servant, supposedly had a child out of wedlock with one ofthe sons > of the family where she was a servant). I was thinking that if she had a > child out of wedlock she was,as some of the Irish have told me, "considered > to be damaged goods." There is always a stumbling block, of course. The > child this woman had was named "Carroll." That name was neverused in the > Kingston family. In fact, I have never seen this used as a first name in > West Cork records. We think this was! > the George Kingston who was part of our family. If my ggrandfather's > marriage to a woman who had a childout of wedlock makes sense, then it is > one more reason to think my hypothesis is true as far as who GeorgeKingston > was. Thank you for any thoughts/input.Jan > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I had never heard that an illegitimate child could not marry someone who was born legitimately. Very interesting.That information prompted me to think that a hypothesis I have for a West Cork marriage might be correct. Wouldit be likely that a child born out of wedlock could marry a woman who was born legitimately but who herself hada child out of wedlock? My ggrandfather was born out of wedlock. We think he married a woman who was baptized in the RC church butwho had a child out of wedlock. (She, as a domestic servant, supposedly had a child out of wedlock with one ofthe sons of the family where she was a servant). I was thinking that if she had a child out of wedlock she was,as some of the Irish have told me, "considered to be damaged goods." There is always a stumbling block, of course. The child this woman had was named "Carroll." That name was neverused in the Kingston family. In fact, I have never seen this used as a first name in West Cork records. We think this was the George Kingston who was part of our family. If my ggrandfather's marriage to a woman who had a childout of wedlock makes sense, then it is one more reason to think my hypothesis is true as far as who GeorgeKingston was. Thank you for any thoughts/input.Jan

Hey Ed. I can't believe that it's been 13 years since the congress. It was a great gathering, especially given the fact that it was less than a week after 9/11. The list of dates from wikipedia are a little suspect. It says 1853 for Tipperary and I know that the actual surveys were being done much earlier than that. I think 1853 might be when the whole process was complete for the county, including challenges to assessments. I found a Martin Hough living in the area around Lorrha in a field book with a date of 1846. He and his family left for Canada in 1847 and if I remember correctly, his name was struck out on the field book and he was not included in the actual printed Griffiths Valuation. The surveys for County Tipperary were among the first completed because Griffith and his crews were already working in the area under an old law. Once the law was passed under which the Primary Valuation was conducted, they just regrouped and continued in the county. A great paperback called Richard Griffith and His Valuations of Ireland by James R Reilly goes through all the work that Griffith did, starting in the 1820's. Plus it gives a wonderful explanation of how to interpret what you see. It's reasonably priced and once you're finished with it, you can donate it to your local genealogical library. Theresa In a message dated 8/19/2014 10:53:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, edmadden@spiritone.com writes: Great question Tina and important to know! The "completion" date of Griffith's for Co Tipperary was 29 June 1853 according to this (all the other counties too): _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith%27s_Valuation_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith's_Valuation) Teresa gave wonderful info on finding the "scribed (data collected)" date. Teresa & I went "to school" together! Way back in Sept 2001 we met at Trinity College Dublin for the 10 day 4th (& final?) Irish Genealogical Congress. Here are a few links to excellent information on understanding GPV: 1. The GPV with originals & maps at http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ 2. Article, PDF: Is There More in Griffith's Valuation Than Just Names? http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/GRIFFITH/Griffiths.PDF 3. Web; Griffith’s Valuation House Books at http://timeline.ie/griffiths-valuation-house-books/ 4. Web; Griffith's Valuation - Revision Books, Cancelled Books & Current Land Books at http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/revision-books.html 5. Lesson; Module 6: Intro to Griffith's Valuation at http://www.boydhouse.com/alice/Carey/careyclassmodule6.html Ed Madden Ridgefield, WA On 8/18/2014 9:43 PM, Theresa Liewer via wrote: One way would be to look at the handwritten tenure, house and field books that the surveyors did for the valuation. They are dated by the surveyor. They've been microfilmed by the Family History Library - 355 rolls in total. You can order the film out to a local Family History Center but the problem is that the records for the Barony of Lower Ormond are in multiple rolls with no detail of which roll has a specific parish. The good news is that the National Archives of Ireland is digitizing their copies and they supposedly will be on their website, perhaps even this year. There's no way of knowing when it will actually happen - the 1901 and 1911 census took an extra year. If you're willing to be patient, you'll eventually see them. If you want to try ordering the microfilm, email me and I can walk you through how to find them in the catalog. Theresa Liewer Ankeny, Iowa On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:05 PM, TnT Cole via _<cotipperary@rootsweb.com>_ (mailto:cotipperary@rootsweb.com) wrote: Hello, Listers. Can someone please help me shortcut finding a source for years Griffith's Valuation was being scribed (data collected)...not the year published. Specifically looking for: Co: Tipperary, North Riding, Barony: Ormond, Lower, Union: Borrisokane, Parish: Terryglass. THANKS! TinaMichigan

Great question Tina and important to know! The "completion" date of Griffith's for Co Tipperary was29 June 1853 according to this (all the other counties too): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith%27s_Valuation Teresa gave wonderful info on finding the "scribed (data collected)" date. Teresa & I went "to school" together! Way back in Sept 2001 we met at Trinity College Dublin for the 10 day 4th (& final?) Irish Genealogical Congress. Here are a few links to excellent information on understanding GPV: 1. The GPV with originals & maps at http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/ 2. Article, PDF: Is There More in Griffith's Valuation Than Just Names? http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/GRIFFITH/Griffiths.PDF 3. Web; Griffith's Valuation House Books at http://timeline.ie/griffiths-valuation-house-books/ 4. Web; Griffith's Valuation - Revision Books, Cancelled Books & Current Land Books at http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/revision-books.html 5. Lesson; Module 6: Intro to Griffith's Valuation at http://www.boydhouse.com/alice/Carey/careyclassmodule6.html Ed Madden Ridgefield, WA On 8/18/2014 9:43 PM, Theresa Liewer via wrote: > One way would be to look at the handwritten tenure, house and field books that the surveyors did for the valuation. They are dated by the surveyor. They've been microfilmed by the Family History Library - 355 rolls in total. You can order the film out to a local Family History Center but the problem is that the records for the Barony of Lower Ormond are in multiple rolls with no detail of which roll has a specific parish. > > The good news is that the National Archives of Ireland is digitizing their copies and they supposedly will be on their website, perhaps even this year. There's no way of knowing when it will actually happen - the 1901 and 1911 census took an extra year. If you're willing to be patient, you'll eventually see them. > > If you want to try ordering the microfilm, email me and I can walk you through how to find them in the catalog. > > Theresa Liewer > Ankeny, Iowa > > On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:05 PM, TnT Cole via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello, Listers. > > Can someone please help me shortcut finding a source for years Griffith's Valuation was being scribed (data collected)...not the year published. > Specifically looking for: Co: Tipperary, North Riding, Barony: Ormond, Lower, Union: Borrisokane, Parish: Terryglass. > > THANKS! > > TinaMichigan

One way would be to look at the handwritten tenure, house and field books that the surveyors did for the valuation. They are dated by the surveyor. They've been microfilmed by the Family History Library - 355 rolls in total. You can order the film out to a local Family History Center but the problem is that the records for the Barony of Lower Ormond are in multiple rolls with no detail of which roll has a specific parish. The good news is that the National Archives of Ireland is digitizing their copies and they supposedly will be on their website, perhaps even this year. There's no way of knowing when it will actually happen - the 1901 and 1911 census took an extra year. If you're willing to be patient, you'll eventually see them. If you want to try ordering the microfilm, email me and I can walk you through how to find them in the catalog. Theresa Liewer Ankeny, Iowa Sent from my iPad On Aug 18, 2014, at 10:05 PM, TnT Cole via <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello, Listers. > > > Can someone please help me shortcut finding a source for years Griffith's > Valuation was being scribed (data collected)...not the year published. > Specifically looking for: Co: Tipperary, North Riding, Barony: Ormond, > Lower, Union: Borrisokane, Parish: Terryglass. > > THANKS! > > TinaMichigan > > > > When replying to a message in the digest please do two things: > 1. Change the 'Subject' to that of the message you are replying to. > 2. Delete all the messages above and below the one you are concerned with. > Thank You. > > All of the past messages of this list can be found in the Archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index?list=cotipperary > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message