27-3-1838 From the Clonmel Advertiser. Clonmel Assizes. The unfortunate Jack Carroll, against whom sentence of death was recorded at our present assizes for returning from transportation, attempted to put a period to his miserable existence in the county gaol on Wednesday evening last. He had been in a state of distraction ever since his sentence. He was immediately attended to by a medical gentleman and by degrees recovered. The story of this man's life, even in simple narration, is deeply tinged with romance, and at some future period we hope to publish it in detail; for the present we must be satisfied with an outline. It appears that in the year 1832 he was indicted for a murder committed near Roscrea, in this county, and by the merciful verdict of the jury found guilty of manslaughter only, he was sentenced to transportation, transmitted to a hulk, and landed safely in Sydney. From thence, after some time, he contrived to effect his escape, and found his way to America. Whilst there, inhaling the air of freedom, and enjoying liberty, without which life becomes a burden, tidings of his wife's death reached him; she died in Ireland of a broken heart--as may readily be imagined, broken by the misfortunes of her husband-leaving an orphan child. Parental feeling now became predominant in the felon's breast, and even Jack Carroll, the convict, paused not to contemplate personal danger, when the feelings of a father urged him to seek out and protect his child, the offspring of his deceased wife. For this purpose he set out, homeward bound, and reached the scene of his early youth, from which he had been alienated by his own misconduct. He was not long at home when he heard that the authorities were in search of him; he was determined to find an abode where he would be more secure from observation, and accordingly left for Liverpool, where he was planning means of proceeding to London, as he says, to throw himself at the feet of the Queen, and sue for pardon; he was, however, recognised, arrested, and committed to our county gaol--and , as already mentioned, sentenced at the present assizes for returning from transportation. Since his trial he has said he would rather be hanged than transported again; and in an interview with his sisters he declared that he would die in his native land, for it would be some satisfaction to leave them his bones. He declared that he could not endure the idea of going out again as a convict to suffer the perpetual misery of being bound in irons, and doomed to the slavery that the convicts must endure. With this dread resolve he attempted with his own hands to seal a life of misery and distress.

I have a little mystery that needs solving... Nicholas Comerford and Mary Dee are my 4g-grandparents. Their daughter Bridget married Michael Tobin about 1847, had a son Michael about 1848 all in Tipperary and then emigrated to upstate New York. That much of my info came from a distant cousin here in the states and I have no idea how she got it and I've never been able to find the family in Tipp. I have them well documented once they got to the states. Yesterday I found a baptismal record in the IFHF database for Michael Tobin, baptised on 29/4/1849, parents are Michael Tobin and Bridget Comerford, sponsor is John Comerford, parish is Ballyneale, family is Roman Catholic, priest was P. Power. So, I'm 99% sure this is my Michael Tobin. I found the Roman Catholic parish of Ballyneale in the Waterford and Lismore diocese and in 1846, P. Power is one of the curates and the the post town for the parish is Carrisk-on-Suir. So it seems to all make sense. However, there is a townland of Ballyneale in the Donohill civil parish and in that parish I find Nicholas Comerford in the Grifith's. I find no mention of Comerfords near Carrick-on-Suir -- but I'm also very unfamiliar with this part of Tipperary, since most of my family is from the Lattin-Cullen parish. Can anyone help shed some light on the geography involved here? Thanks so much! Kathleen _________________________________________________________________ Test your Star IQ http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR

Janet, No, I've never seen it as Kitt.? At least not in my lot, anyway.? Cindy

Thanks for that information, Cindy. Might the surname also have been Kitt? I was wondering about that. I'll do more Googling later for Kyte and see what shows up. Janet On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 5:02 PM, <ndhockey49112@aol.com> wrote: > > Janet: > > A more common spelling for Kite would be Kyte.? This was a family found mostly between Birdhill and Nenagh, married a number of times in to my Powell line.? A good deal of them wound up in the London, Ontario area as well, as a result of chain migration from the Talbot emigration party.? > > Cindy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Janet: A more common spelling for Kite would be Kyte.? This was a family found mostly between Birdhill and Nenagh, married a number of times in to my Powell line.? A good deal of them wound up in the London, Ontario area as well, as a result of chain migration from the Talbot emigration party.? Cindy

>From the Freeman's Journal 10-2-1894. The Evicted Tenants Fund. Subscribers to the fund from Knockavella, Co. Tipperary. £2. Rev. E. Doheny. £1, Michael Murphy, Michael Carew, and Denis Kelly. 18s. T. Fahey, P.L.G. 12s. J. McGrath. 10s. John O'Keeffe, John Hayes, Mathew Hayes. 7s. John Dwyer. 5s. Denis Neill, Jerh Muan, Denis Tierney, John Scanlan, and Thomas Walsh. 4s. Mrs Condon, John Muan, Martin Ryan, Edward Duggan, James Sanders, C. O'Brien, John Kelly and Laurence Ryan. 3s.6d. William Stapleton, and Patrick Morrissey. 3s. Michael Brown, William Flood, Patrick Ryan (E). 2s.6d. William Hayes, Thomas Fahey, Patrick Madden, Mrs Ryan (A). 2s. D. Ryan, Patrick Ryan, W. Dwyer, John Crowe, T. Foley, John Kennedy, Thomas Gorman, Daniel Dwyer, Michael Taylor, James Muan, Michael Brien, Thomas Hayes. 1s. James Hickey, Michael Dwyer, John Connor, John Ryan, A. Fitzpatrick, T. Lanegan, Wm. Morrissey, John Brett. 6d. T. Ryan, T. Carew. Donaskeigh Subscribers. £1. Daniel Ryan. 12s.6d. Wm. Ryan, Denis McGrath. 7s. John Rourke. 6s.6d. Thomas Kelly. 5s. Patrick Deere, Wm. Ryan, Wm. Hogan. 4s.6d. Edward Crowe. 3s.9d. Denis Hickey. 3s.6d. V. Farrell, Patrick Slattery. 2s.6d. James Guilfoyle. 2s.3d. Wm Dwyer. 2s. Edward Hickey. 1s.6d. Thomas Ryan. 1s. Pat Ahern. 6s. John Galvan, John Ryan, P. Hogan.

Because I need some very old records, I finally gave this IFHF place a try and spent 15 Euro and got nothing really useful. It is money better spent on buying lottery scratch off tickets! I got a record for the marriage of Mary Harding of Carrigatoher, Owney & Arra barony, Burgesbeg civil parish, Nenagh PLU to Ambrose KITE of "Tournalebe" [which is Toor today, I think], Owney & Arra, Youghalara, Nenagh in 1808, and both were Protestants, married in the civil parish of Castletownarra. Neither's parents showed. I have no idea which Mary Harding this might be. The Kite family is new to me. On the net I found only one other entry for a Henry Kite who was a freeman of Cashel in 1775, and could be this fellow's father or grandfather. This marriage never came up on the Killaloe marraige bonds, so maybe not much of a dowry. Anybody have anything on the Kite's? The other two records were for the RC baptism of one of the Mary Grace's at St. Munchin's in Limerick, father being Michael Grace and mother Catherine Duffy in 1791, and the RC baptism of yet another Mary Grace in 1793 in Nenagh, father Thomas Grace and mother Ellen Landy. They are both new Grace records for me, but not helpful. Janet

Pete, We all miss your comments, your humor and you map skills too much to express. Please! Un-AOL and get back here where you belong. Janet On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Michael M <mm3854@hotmail.com> wrote: > Pete seems to have solved my "Garrybeg" question... > "There are many instances of mis-transcriptions of the script capital letters used during this period in the mid-1800's, and I think a script "D" might have been misread as a script "G". Derrybeg would have been a familiar placename to those in the Portroe area." > > I wish to thank Pete Schermerhorn, Lou Brugha, Bob Ryan and others for their input. Derrybeg is on the Tipperary N.R. map, Gerrybeg was not. I found thirty-four "Minogue" households in the areas of Castletownarra and Templeachally, Tipperary based on Pete's detective work. > > Mike Minogue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: PeteScherm@aol.com<mailto:PeteScherm@aol.com> > To: mm3854@hotmail.com<mailto:mm3854@hotmail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 5:19 AM > Subject: Garrybeg in Co Tipperary or Co Clare? > > > Mike, > > == Address: Garrybeg > Parish/District: Portroe > County: Tipperary > > But where is Garrybeg? > Can anyone provide assistance? == > > I can try....but I can't reply on-list (AOL troubles). However, I still read > the mail and can respond to you directly. > > As others have done, I have been scouring-over maps, books, etc., for a > place similar in name to Garrybeg - in the counties of Tipp, Clare and Galway > (Clonrush and Inishcaltra civil parishes were in Co. Galway until 1898). Nothing > appeared quickly. But the Garrybeg placename must have been familiar to those > writing the baptismal certificate.....otherwise they would probably have > added a nearby town or such in order to clarify the location of Garrybeg. And the > fact that it is listed in Portroe "Parish/District" would seem to verify that. > > I don't know just what a "Portroe District" would consist of, but the RC > parish of Portroe (Castletown Arrha) seems to be coterminous with the civil parish > of Castletownarra. Although my first guess is not located in this parish, it > borders it and is just 3 miles SW of Portroe village. This would be the > townland of Derrybeg/Derry Beg, in the civil parish of Templeachally. There are > many instances of mis-transcriptions of the script capital letters used during > this period in the mid-1800's, and I think a script "D" might have been > misread as a script "G". Derrybeg would have been a familiar placename to those in > the Portroe area. > > The only other possibility I could see would be the townland of Garraunbeg, > in Killoscully civil parish, a distant 9 miles due south of Portroe village. > It seems to me to be located too far away to be a likely contender. > > If you think that any of this might be of use to any of the other listers, > feel free to forward any or all of my letter to the list. It's been a year > since I've been able to post to the list, and most have probably forgotten about > me, anyway (boo-hoo) [gr]. > > Pete > ............................................................................ > .. > Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western Massachusetts > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I, too, would like to thank Pete. Pete has been so accurate in describing the area of Bishopswood, Co. Tipperary that I have a very good visual of it in my mind. Pete, you are the greatest. Thank you for everything. Patty Pete, We all miss your comments, your humor and you map skills too much to express. Please! Un-AOL and get back here where you belong. Janet On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Michael M <mm3854@hotmail.com> wrote: > Pete seems to have solved my "Garrybeg" question... > "There are many instances of mis-transcriptions of the script capital letters used during this period in the mid-1800's, and I think a script "D" might have been misread as a script "G". Derrybeg would have been a familiar placename to those in the Portroe area." > > I wish to thank Pete Schermerhorn, Lou Brugha, Bob Ryan and others for their input. Derrybeg is on the Tipperary N.R. map, Gerrybeg was not. I found thirty-four "Minogue" households in the areas of Castletownarra and Templeachally, Tipperary based on Pete's detective work. > > Mike Minogue >

Pete seems to have solved my "Garrybeg" question... "There are many instances of mis-transcriptions of the script capital letters used during this period in the mid-1800's, and I think a script "D" might have been misread as a script "G". Derrybeg would have been a familiar placename to those in the Portroe area." I wish to thank Pete Schermerhorn, Lou Brugha, Bob Ryan and others for their input. Derrybeg is on the Tipperary N.R. map, Gerrybeg was not. I found thirty-four "Minogue" households in the areas of Castletownarra and Templeachally, Tipperary based on Pete's detective work. Mike Minogue ----- Original Message ----- From: PeteScherm@aol.com<mailto:PeteScherm@aol.com> To: mm3854@hotmail.com<mailto:mm3854@hotmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 5:19 AM Subject: Garrybeg in Co Tipperary or Co Clare? Mike, == Address: Garrybeg Parish/District: Portroe County: Tipperary But where is Garrybeg? Can anyone provide assistance? == I can try....but I can't reply on-list (AOL troubles). However, I still read the mail and can respond to you directly. As others have done, I have been scouring-over maps, books, etc., for a place similar in name to Garrybeg - in the counties of Tipp, Clare and Galway (Clonrush and Inishcaltra civil parishes were in Co. Galway until 1898). Nothing appeared quickly. But the Garrybeg placename must have been familiar to those writing the baptismal certificate.....otherwise they would probably have added a nearby town or such in order to clarify the location of Garrybeg. And the fact that it is listed in Portroe "Parish/District" would seem to verify that. I don't know just what a "Portroe District" would consist of, but the RC parish of Portroe (Castletown Arrha) seems to be coterminous with the civil parish of Castletownarra. Although my first guess is not located in this parish, it borders it and is just 3 miles SW of Portroe village. This would be the townland of Derrybeg/Derry Beg, in the civil parish of Templeachally. There are many instances of mis-transcriptions of the script capital letters used during this period in the mid-1800's, and I think a script "D" might have been misread as a script "G". Derrybeg would have been a familiar placename to those in the Portroe area. The only other possibility I could see would be the townland of Garraunbeg, in Killoscully civil parish, a distant 9 miles due south of Portroe village. It seems to me to be located too far away to be a likely contender. If you think that any of this might be of use to any of the other listers, feel free to forward any or all of my letter to the list. It's been a year since I've been able to post to the list, and most have probably forgotten about me, anyway (boo-hoo) [gr]. Pete ............................................................................ .. Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western Massachusetts **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)

His Grace is 69. That gives him 6 years before he has to submit his resignation to Rome. That means his replacement will probably take over in about 7 years based on similar cases. Further trivial information on his Grace can be found online at: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bclifford.html Lou ----- Original Message ----- From: "kathleen ethier" <ethierka@hotmail.com> To: <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] RC C & E records & IFHF - not How old is he? My Irish family is almost entirely from this diocese and this issue is a big pain. On the other hand, it does lead one to be creative, and given the IFHF current search structure, I'd be wasting a lot more money looking at records that don't belong to me if the C&E records were there. So I have discovered a way to use what's there to move my work forward just a tad. And when I think how far we've come in terms of on-line access to information since I started my search 10 years ago, I'm amazed -- there is a bright side, especially for those of us who aren't based in Ireland. In case it helps anyone, here's what I've been doing. I've been using a combination of records from a Tipperary Heritage search and familysearch.org (the Mormons) to figure out whether to purchase any of the IFHF records, and I actually have and they've all been useful and given me pieces that I didn't have before. For instance, my cousin and I knew our g-g-grandparents Owen Keefe and Bridget Bircury were married in Longstone in 1869 but not their parents names. She found a marriage record for each of them in that year, so could be pretty sure it was them and she purchased it -- and it was, and it had their fathers' names on it and it said that she was from Longstone and he from Ballyrobin -- back a generation already! And thanks to Pat Connor I already know that there was a John Bercory in Longstone in the 1851 Griffiths. Definately worth the $7.86 (we can talk about the value of the $ some other time!) I also knew from THF that my g-g-grandmother, Julia Lillis, died in 1913 -- hers was the only death to a person by that name that year in IFHF, so I got the record. No new dates or names, but I did find out that she died of "senile decay" -- not sure exactly what that means, and another record says that it was a workhouse death, so I can start to figure that one out some more. Sorry this is getting a little long winded -- but my point is that we may not have everything we want and we certainly don't want to just throw money into the IFHF so that they have no impetus to improve, but if we're strategic about it and help each other we'll have plenty to do until things progress, which they certainly will. If we don't use them at all, they'll go out of business, but if they can see that the more user-friendly they become the more money they will make, I don't doubt they'll improve. And maybe by then, the AB will have either changed his mind or gone to his great reward... (Right now I can hear my grandmother scolding me for speaking ill of a priest). Hang in everyone -- there's plenty to do. Kathleen > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:31:37 +0000> From: reojan@gmail.com> To: > cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Subject: [COTIPPERARY] RC C & E records & IFHF - > not> > I had to go into town and had a chance to ask Charlotte Crowe > about> the Cashel & Emly records going on-line. She assured me that as > long> as this Archbishop lives, the C & E RC records will NOT go on-line> > with IFHF either in the North or South Ridings. Sigh.> > Janet> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please > send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1335 - Release Date: 19/03/2008 09:54 -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1190 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

OOPS! I am an outside then because my family that I know anything about was Church of Ireland. The ones that I was told were still around were in Tipperary, S.R. and they are relatives through marriage, I think. Thank you for clearing this up for me. Patty in Oklahoma, U.S.A

Outsiders are those who don't belong to the Roman Catholic Church. Not an Irish thing at all. It is from the Code of Canon Law which governs the Roman Catholic Church and its members. Members of the Church of Ireland, for example, would be considered 'outsiders' for example. I would suggest that if you knew where your now deceased relative lived it would be a good place to start. I found a living cousin whilst getting data from a headstone on a family plot. Lou ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patty Napier" <yankee67@sbcglobal.net> To: <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2008 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] RC C & E records & IFHF > Hi, > > I don't know a lot about the inner workings of Ireland because I live in > the U.S., so I have a question regarding this. Who are considered > 'outsiders'? Are people outsiders who are citizens? Are relatives > considered 'outsiders'? I ask this because I believe I still have some > relatives in Ireland. My G-Grandparents are buried there and by locating > them, I might possibly be able to locate living relatives because I was > told in writing, by a now deceased relative, that there are still people > there who are living. That was back in the 1980's so I have no idea where > they would be, but they were in that area at that time. Of course, this > is Tipperary, S.R. but I still would like to know the answers. > > I appreciate this site SO much and would like to express my gratitude to > all who work so hard to put information online. Even though I am not sure > I have found anything definite that pertains to my family, I thoroughly > enjoy reading everything that is posted. Thank you to all of you! > > Patty in OK, U.S.A. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1335 - Release Date: > 19/03/2008 09:54 > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1190 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

How old is he? My Irish family is almost entirely from this diocese and this issue is a big pain. On the other hand, it does lead one to be creative, and given the IFHF current search structure, I'd be wasting a lot more money looking at records that don't belong to me if the C&E records were there. So I have discovered a way to use what's there to move my work forward just a tad. And when I think how far we've come in terms of on-line access to information since I started my search 10 years ago, I'm amazed -- there is a bright side, especially for those of us who aren't based in Ireland. In case it helps anyone, here's what I've been doing. I've been using a combination of records from a Tipperary Heritage search and familysearch.org (the Mormons) to figure out whether to purchase any of the IFHF records, and I actually have and they've all been useful and given me pieces that I didn't have before. For instance, my cousin and I knew our g-g-grandparents Owen Keefe and Bridget Bircury were married in Longstone in 1869 but not their parents names. She found a marriage record for each of them in that year, so could be pretty sure it was them and she purchased it -- and it was, and it had their fathers' names on it and it said that she was from Longstone and he from Ballyrobin -- back a generation already! And thanks to Pat Connor I already know that there was a John Bercory in Longstone in the 1851 Griffiths. Definately worth the $7.86 (we can talk about the value of the $ some other time!) I also knew from THF that my g-g-grandmother, Julia Lillis, died in 1913 -- hers was the only death to a person by that name that year in IFHF, so I got the record. No new dates or names, but I did find out that she died of "senile decay" -- not sure exactly what that means, and another record says that it was a workhouse death, so I can start to figure that one out some more. Sorry this is getting a little long winded -- but my point is that we may not have everything we want and we certainly don't want to just throw money into the IFHF so that they have no impetus to improve, but if we're strategic about it and help each other we'll have plenty to do until things progress, which they certainly will. If we don't use them at all, they'll go out of business, but if they can see that the more user-friendly they become the more money they will make, I don't doubt they'll improve. And maybe by then, the AB will have either changed his mind or gone to his great reward... (Right now I can hear my grandmother scolding me for speaking ill of a priest). Hang in everyone -- there's plenty to do. Kathleen > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:31:37 +0000> From: reojan@gmail.com> To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Subject: [COTIPPERARY] RC C & E records & IFHF - not> > I had to go into town and had a chance to ask Charlotte Crowe about> the Cashel & Emly records going on-line. She assured me that as long> as this Archbishop lives, the C & E RC records will NOT go on-line> with IFHF either in the North or South Ridings. Sigh.> > Janet> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

I think we owe His Grace a vote of thanks. Every time the list has gotten quiet over the past 10 years someone brings up the issue of access to church records and things do hot up. The idea that church records are 'public records' is misleading. Church records are not public at all but are, in fact, a private list of members of the church and their legal status in the church. The baptismal records are amended to show receipt of Confirmation, Marriage and/or Holy Orders. Prior to receiving one of the latter sacraments in a parish other than the one an individual was baptized in, a recent Baptismal Certificate must be provided. It will indicate what sacraments have been received by the individual. A case could be made under Canon Law that the bishops who have opened up their records are in violation of Canon 535 §4 that provides "The pastor is to take care that all of these things .. do not come into the hands of outsiders." (See below) Whilst I admit that non-access can be a major stumbling block I have found that the priests in the diocese are rather used to the annual influx of 'roots hunting' individuals and are helpful in researching their own records. On the other hand, TFHR provided me the clues I need to add two generations to my family and a visit to Ardmayle cemetery brought up a third. I have found that the only draw back for me is not being able to actually touch the original records, but then they are all secure in His Grace's archive. Another aspect of His Grace's blessings are the kind soul's like Janet who have turned the list into a labour of love and spent countless hours pouring through documents at the National Library and other places obtaining reams of glorious tidbits about our ancestors. Fair dues Janet! Can. 535 §1. Each parish is to have parochial registers, that is, those of baptisms, marriages, deaths, and others as prescribed by the conference of bishops or the diocesan bishop. The pastor is to see to it that these registers are accurately inscribed and carefully preserved. §2. In the baptismal register are also to be noted confirmation and those things which pertain to the canonical status of the Christian faithful by reason of marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 1133, of adoption, of the reception of sacred orders, of perpetual profession made in a religious institute, and of change of rite. These notations are always to be noted on a baptismal certificate. §3. Each parish is to have its own seal. Documents regarding the canonical status of the Christian faithful and all acts which can have juridic importance are to be signed by the pastor or his delegate and sealed with the parochial seal. §4. In each parish there is to be a storage area, or archive, in which the parochial registers are protected along with letters of bishops and other documents which are to be preserved for reason of necessity or advantage. The pastor is to take care that all of these things, which are to be inspected by the diocesan bishop or his delegate at the time of visitation or at some other opportune time, do not come into the hands of outsiders. Lou Burgess -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1190 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

...under Canon Law that the bishops who have opened up their ecords are in violation of Canon 535 §4 that provides "The pastor is to take are that all of these things .. do not come into the hands of outsiders." Hi! Hasn't his Grace already blatantly handed the parishes records over to TFHR, an oursider -- to make a profit? I know that TFHR is not part of the diocese. Other dioceses have opened their archives. I am sure there are safeguards to make sure the records are not stolen or mutilated in those dioceses! Joe The holder of about 50 pages of nothing!!!! -----Original Message----- From: Lugaid Brugha <ei2je@eircom.net> To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] RC C & E records & IFHF - not I think we owe His Grace a vote of thanks. Every time the list has gotten quiet ver the past 10 years someone brings up the issue of access to church records nd things do hot up. The idea that church records are 'public records' is misleading. Church records re not public at all but are, in fact, a private list of members of the church nd their legal status in the church. The baptismal records are amended to show eceipt of Confirmation, Marriage and/or Holy Orders. Prior to receiving one of he latter sacraments in a parish other than the one an individual was baptized n, a recent Baptismal Certificate must be provided. It will indicate what acraments have been received by the individual. A case could be made under Canon Law that the bishops who have opened up their ecords are in violation of Canon 535 §4 that provides "The pastor is to take are that all of these things .. do not come into the hands of outsiders." (See elow) Whilst I admit that non-access can be a major stumbling block I have found that he priests in the diocese are rather used to the annual influx of 'roots unting' individuals and are helpful in researching their own records. On the ther hand, TFHR provided me the clues I need to add two generations to my amily and a visit to Ardmayle cemetery brought up a third. I have found that the only draw back for me is not being able to actually touch he original records, but then they are all secure in His Grace's archive. Another aspect of His Grace's blessings are the kind soul's like Janet who have urned the list into a labour of love and spent countless hours pouring through ocuments at the National Library and other places obtaining reams of glorious idbits about our ancestors. Fair dues Janet! Can. 535 §1. Each parish is to have parochial registers, that is, those of aptisms, marriages, deaths, and others as prescribed by the conference of ishops or the diocesan bishop. The pastor is to see to it that these registers re accurately inscribed and carefully preserved. §2. In the baptismal register are also to be noted confirmation and those things hich pertain to the canonical status of the Christian faithful by reason of arriage, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 1133, of adoption, of the eception of sacred orders, of perpetual profession made in a religious nstitute, and of change of rite. These notations are always to be noted on a aptismal certificate. §3. Each parish is to have its own seal. Documents regarding the canonical tatus of the Christian faithful and all acts which can have juridic importance re to be signed by the pastor or his delegate and sealed with the parochial eal. §4. In each parish there is to be a storage area, or archive, in which the arochial registers are protected along with letters of bishops and other ocuments which are to be preserved for reason of necessity or advantage. The astor is to take care that all of these things, which are to be inspected by he diocesan bishop or his delegate at the time of visitation or at some other pportune time, do not come into the hands of outsiders. Lou Burgess - am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. t has removed 1190 spam emails to date. aying users do not have this message in their emails. et the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Been hearing the same thing about this Archbishop for years. As long as he makes an income from selling public records, he will not give up his income by putting them online free. On the other hand we cannot blame him for protecting the original old records. When a visitor tears two pages out of an old book of records, it is past time to lock the books up. One person, by damaging records, can spoil the experience of viewing original parish entries for everyone. donkelly -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Janet Crawford" <reojan@gmail.com> > I had to go into town and had a chance to ask Charlotte Crowe about > the Cashel & Emly records going on-line. She assured me that as long > as this Archbishop lives, the C & E RC records will NOT go on-line > with IFHF either in the North or South Ridings. Sigh. > > Janet > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Deborah, I have a hunch that the AB doesn't know that those records are on, and I am sure not going to tell him!! Sh! Janet On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 3:38 PM, <MB2DEB@aol.com> wrote: > Janet, > > I just wanted to let you know that I have been using the IFHF database > extensively since the Limerick records went online. I can assure you that the > Cashel & Emly RC records for parishes in Co. Limerick are there. Why Co. Tipp > would be any different is unclear. > > Deborah > > > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to COTIPPERARY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I had to go into town and had a chance to ask Charlotte Crowe about the Cashel & Emly records going on-line. She assured me that as long as this Archbishop lives, the C & E RC records will NOT go on-line with IFHF either in the North or South Ridings. Sigh. Janet