Phoebe, Particularly in the west, the language of Cornwall at the time surnames were becoming common was neither English nor French but Cornish. We don't have any original parish records from the 16th century (the ones we do have are transcriptions made in Jacobean times) so it is not possible to tell if any of the originals were in Cornish. (I'm inclined to think not.) But there must have been an element of translation at some stage. Wasn't the first Earl of Cornwall named Robert? An obvious place for the origin of the name. Best, Ken > > From: Phoebe <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 14:03:43 +1100 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [CORNISH-GEN] surnames and given names in Cornwall > > Greetings, all. Another interesting thread! Here's my contribution. > > Some years ago a Stephens friend pointed out that Stephens, Roberts, > Richards, etc are all cornish forms, whereas Stephenson, Robertson, > Richardson etc are english forms. This fits my knowledge of anglo-saxon > and the history of the english language: "son" is a danish ending (as > opposed to "ing", an anglo-saxon ending) and tends to indicate ancestral > origins within the Danelaw. Cornwall was well outside the Danelaw and > even if the people had spoken a form of english they wouldn't have been > affected by that. > > Subsequent research has alerted me to a cornish habit of using given > names, both female and male, as surnames - without even a terminal S. > (Ignore Cliff Richard - he was born Harry Webb.) In all cases the given > name is the basis of the surname, not vice versa. But with society the > way it was, how did female names get to be surnames? A man would be > differentiated from other men of the same given name by his father's > name (or his occupation etc, but just focusing here on given/surnames), > and his wife and daughters just got lumped in with him. My guess is that > a man surnamed Betty or Pheby was born out of wedlock - a guess based > simply on common sense and social history, plus a remembered story of a > man born out of wedlock in Russia whose surname was in the feminine > form: not his mother's first name but her actual surname, feminised as > she would herself have used it. > > And when looking particularly at Roberts I realised that Robert is > neither a cornish nor an english name: it's french. Most or all the > surnames in Cornwall based on men's given names seem to be french, > though a mixture of norman and parisian forms. Why? Did the ancestors of > all these families cross to Cornwall with (or follow) the Conqueror? Did > some of them originate in Paris, not Normandy? William handed big chunks > of Cornwall to his supporters, but I don't know that these were > necessarily all born in Normandy. > > Any takers on these questions? > > Bev Edmonds' message was very useful to me personally re Annis - I'd > never thought of a silent G, but it makes sense. Ralph is correctly > pronounced "Rafe", as in Ralph Vauhan Williams (good cornish surname > there, though in his case welsh) or as in calf, half, palm, calm or - > best of all - golf; we just get it wrong. (Rock Hudson in, I think, > "Giant", refers to a cow's baby as a "cal-f".) Thanks, Bev. > > Phoebe

Hi Ken I think Robert de Mortain (b abt 1031) was the second holder of the title Earl of Cornwall. He was the half brother of William the Conqueror. The first earl, Brian de Bretagne, was another Norman. If I'm not mistaken Norman, or rather French, forenames were pretty much integrated into Cornish as well as English naming patterns over the 100 years or so following the Conquest. Best wishes Tony Tony Bennett, Cheshire, UK Sent from my iPhone On 1 Dec 2012, at 09:06, Ken Ozanne <[email protected]> wrote: > Phoebe, > Particularly in the west, the language of Cornwall at the time > surnames were becoming common was neither English nor French but Cornish. We > don't have any original parish records from the 16th century (the ones we do > have are transcriptions made in Jacobean times) so it is not possible to > tell if any of the originals were in Cornish. (I'm inclined to think not.) > > But there must have been an element of translation at some stage. > > Wasn't the first Earl of Cornwall named Robert? An obvious place for > the origin of the name. > > Best, > Ken > >> >> From: Phoebe <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2012 14:03:43 +1100 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [CORNISH-GEN] surnames and given names in Cornwall >> >> Greetings, all. Another interesting thread! Here's my contribution. >> >> Some years ago a Stephens friend pointed out that Stephens, Roberts, >> Richards, etc are all cornish forms, whereas Stephenson, Robertson, >> Richardson etc are english forms. This fits my knowledge of anglo-saxon >> and the history of the english language: "son" is a danish ending (as >> opposed to "ing", an anglo-saxon ending) and tends to indicate ancestral >> origins within the Danelaw. Cornwall was well outside the Danelaw and >> even if the people had spoken a form of english they wouldn't have been >> affected by that. >> >> Subsequent research has alerted me to a cornish habit of using given >> names, both female and male, as surnames - without even a terminal S. >> (Ignore Cliff Richard - he was born Harry Webb.) In all cases the given >> name is the basis of the surname, not vice versa. But with society the >> way it was, how did female names get to be surnames? A man would be >> differentiated from other men of the same given name by his father's >> name (or his occupation etc, but just focusing here on given/surnames), >> and his wife and daughters just got lumped in with him. My guess is that >> a man surnamed Betty or Pheby was born out of wedlock - a guess based >> simply on common sense and social history, plus a remembered story of a >> man born out of wedlock in Russia whose surname was in the feminine >> form: not his mother's first name but her actual surname, feminised as >> she would herself have used it. >> >> And when looking particularly at Roberts I realised that Robert is >> neither a cornish nor an english name: it's french. Most or all the >> surnames in Cornwall based on men's given names seem to be french, >> though a mixture of norman and parisian forms. Why? Did the ancestors of >> all these families cross to Cornwall with (or follow) the Conqueror? Did >> some of them originate in Paris, not Normandy? William handed big chunks >> of Cornwall to his supporters, but I don't know that these were >> necessarily all born in Normandy. >> >> Any takers on these questions? >> >> Bev Edmonds' message was very useful to me personally re Annis - I'd >> never thought of a silent G, but it makes sense. Ralph is correctly >> pronounced "Rafe", as in Ralph Vauhan Williams (good cornish surname >> there, though in his case welsh) or as in calf, half, palm, calm or - >> best of all - golf; we just get it wrong. (Rock Hudson in, I think, >> "Giant", refers to a cow's baby as a "cal-f".) Thanks, Bev. >> >> Phoebe > > ------------------------------- > Listmom: [email protected] or [email protected] > > Visit the OPC (Online Parish Clerk) web page for transcription information http://www.cornwall-opc.org/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message