Here's the opposite side of the question... . . WEST BRITON AND CORNWALL ADVERTISER 18 July, 1856 - part 3 of 3 . RATING OF MINES TO THE POOR [testimony before a Committee of Parliament, regarding rating of mines to aid the poor] . [Dates and amounts mentioned below which do not seem to be logical are as written...] . . Mr. R. TAYLOR, farmer and lime-burner at Liskeard, said he resided at St. Cleer. Among the mines in the parish were South Caradon, West Caradon, Gonamena, and Craddock Moor. None of these pay poor rates. . South Caradon was rated in 1838, and continued to pay rates until January, 1854, when the adventurers objected to pay, and obtained a new deed, with the dues reserved in money. After this, Mr. MORRIS, the lord, agreed with the parishioners to make a payment in lieu of rates. The annual payment was to be GBP 150. This they received for two or three years, when it was reduced to GBP 100, and subsequently continued to decline, until it was reduced to GBP 40. . In 1849, the parish authorities waited on Mr. Morris, for the purpose of obtaining an increase, but he would not consent, and they determined to rate the mines, and the case was taken to the Quarter Sessions; but though it was proposed to compromise the matter, nothing was done. He did not know the amount of ore sold by this mine, but should say the profits were about GBP 80,000. The lord received about GBP 2,400 a year for his dues. West Caradon paid rates from 1840 to last year, when they were discontinued. They paid until the meeting at Truro, which Mr. CROUCH, the purser, attended. Since that they had ceased to pay. The meeting was in favour of rating mines, with the dues as the basis. He did not know Mr. Crouch's views, but thought he was opposed to rating. . After they declined to pay the rates, he understood a new sett was made, in which the lord had a share. He considered that mines were a great evil to the farmers in the neighbourhood in which they were situated. A friend of his valued his farm as worth GBP50 a year less now than prior to mining, because his orchard was robbed. . . The mining absorbed about one-third of the weekly parish pay. Out of GBP 6.9s.4d. paid in a week, GBP2.5s.1d. was received by miners. Independent of that, it cost them a considerable sum yearly for the removal of the mining poor. Their attorney's bill averaged about GBP 50 per year, and one year the entire of it was paid for this purpose alone. He had spoken to one of the South Caradon miners respecting the doctor and club, who assured him that allowance was not made to the sick, but only in case of accident. . . He was a guardian of the poor many years ago, but was superannuated now. He did not think that the farmer received the slightest benefit from the mines, as the prices were governed by the Devonport and other large markets. . In St. Cleer, the miller, butcher, and general shopkeeper were benefited. He considered it a great hardship that mines were excluded. The miners themselves complained, as they built houses, and had to borrow money, which they had to pay in a certain time, and they were frequently inclined to sell their property. They took leases for ninety-nine and sixty-six years. . No doubt in some cases the farmers were benefited when carts were employed, but generally they gained nothing, and were very much annoyed. The miners were a very independent set, and thought they had a right to go over any-ones ground. They were the greatest evil to the farmer in the centre of a mining district. The farmers generally were very much aggrieved that mines did not pay rates. He believed every farmer in the parish would sign a petition in favour of mines paying rates. . The working miners suffered themselves in having to pay the rate, and those in St. Cleer were truly sensible of it. He knew two who refused to sign the petition from South Caradon against rating. He considered mining to be a curse to the farmer in the centre of a mining district. Had granted setts, and was tolerably well acquainted with mining. Thought his dues were reserved in money, but did not interfere, however, but left that to the lawyer. He had never received any dues, or should have been glad to pay a rate on them. He had received a benefit from mines by carrying their produce on the canal, but not as a farmer. . The ore at South Caradon was carried by rail, and the principal mines had railways running up to them. As to rating, he would impose it upon the lord. With regard to existing leases, it would only be fair to the county that some one should pay. If setts were taken by adventurers with the understanding that they should pay, they ought, as the mining population were an expense to the ratepayers. . SEVENTH DAY - Tuesday July 8 . The Committee resumed the examination of witnesses. The evidence of Mr. SAWLE, M.P. for Bodmin; and Mr. BOGER, of Devonport, concluded the case of Cornwall and Devon, (with the exception of that of Mr. Thomas FIELD), and that from Derbyshire was commenced. . MR. SAWLE, M.P. for Bodmin, stated that he resided in Cornwall, was a Cornish magistrate, and Deputy-Chairman of the Quarter Sessions. Now lived in Bodmin, but formerly resided in St. Austell. Whilst there, acted as a magistrate of the district, and was now a magistrate at Bodmin. He had great experience in the large mining district. . He knew the Restormel Iron Mine. It was a very large one, and about a quarter of a mile from his house. A great number of accidents happened at the mine in consequence of the frequency of what are called "runs". . He had heard the evidence given to the effect that the clubs paid the expenses, and heard the statement with a great deal of surprise, as he knew that in Lanlivery district miners have large families, and they were thrown upon the parish. The mine was formerly rated, but did not continue the rate, and, knowing they could [not] compel them to pay, they attempted to rate the railway, but the proceedings were quashed. . He knew, as a visitor to the Bodmin Union, that many miners' wives and families applied to the parish for assistance. He recollected perfectly well that there was a large number of miners, when the mines were stopped, in 1847, owing to a great scarcity, and a diminution in the price of iron, who were thrown upon the Union, and it became a serious question whether or not they would have to take them into the Union. A loan was applied for to relieve them, which was never repaid, and the whole of the burthen fell upon the parish. He thought that the opinion of Professor SMYTH on this subject was based upon a want of experience in the district, as he presumed he merely visited it occasionally. . When application was made to the Union, they attempted to ascertain the amount of the club money before giving relief, and it was never found in Lanlivery to meet the requirements of the poor miners; and he was certain this parish would be much better without the mines than with them. His experience of St. Austell was the same. . Whenever there was any depreciation or when tributers took bad pitches, they were constantly applying to the parish. So when the miner left to seek work elsewhere, his wife and family remained, and the parish had to support them. With regard to agriculturist, there was no doubt he reaped a benefit when mines were in full operation, but when there was any depreciation he suffered considerably. . By the Chairman - His opinion was that dues ought to be rated. His father's setts were formerly reserved in kind. With regard to Fowey Consols, he thought a recent change had taken place, and that the dues were now reserved in money, but could not say positively. He did not see why mines should not be rated; and in rating them he went on the principle that the landlord who received the dues was the occupier, whether reserved in money or kind; therefore, he would rate the lord, not the adventurer. In his own mind, he could not conceive why the royalty should not be rated. The mine he had spoken of had caused a great deal of pauperism, and he should say it had done so since the famine. . He had heard some of the evidence with respect to the parish of St. Agnes; there a great deal of common land had been built upon by cottagers, and when the mines were active they were very happy. There were about 2,000 in St. Austell whose assessments were under GBP 5; and he had sat on the bench when from 300 to 400 were summoned for the non-payment of rates. . He considered that the rates in agricultural parishes were lower than the mining. The hundred was altogether lower than any in the kingdom. Still mines brought their bitters as well as their sweets. . It was true the miners were a migratory population, but he was sorry to say that they too often left their families behind them, not certainly for any time, but some of them went to Cuba, Australia, and other parts, and then their families were a burthen for months, and even years, together. It was an exceedingly difficult matter to catch the miners, as many of them went to Wales. Those who emigrated were constantly returning. . By the Chairman - He would only rate the dues. If they took the question of rating profits they would then have to go to the growing of crops, cattle, and other produce. . MR BOGER, of Plympton, said he was a resident in Cornwall, had mining property of his own, and represented very large property for other parties in Cornwall and Devon. . The mines with which he was connected were among the most profitable in both counties, and were making large returns. He was not prepared to state the value of the property he represented, as it was so very large. He had had the control of it for thirty years, and there was no deed of any kind executed that he did not look through. The number of leases granted were to the extent of several hundreds. For years scarcely a week passed without their receiving applications for leases, but he did not say they were all granted. . After the granting of a lease he was in constant communication with the parties to it, and, as far as experience went, he was in a position to give and opinion on the subject of rating. . Some twenty years ago some alterations were made with respect to the clause for evading the poor-rate, by which the lord not only reserved the dues entirely clear and exempt from rating changes, but the leases contained a covenant on the part of the miner, that he would pay all taxes charged; the reservation was not only free and clear, but the lessee was bound to pay any taxes which might hereafter arise. In drawing these setts he did not find parties cavil, or make any objection to the clause, and he only knew of two instances in which it was proposed to alter the reservation of dues. . However, the reservation was made, he considered the lessee would stand in the same position, in consequence of the clause in the leases. . He considered that the rating of mines would not have the slightest effect either on legitimate or illegitimate speculation. He based this opinion upon calculations, and considered that the increase of the rate would be something less than 1d. per ton upon the ore raised. He assumed that the poor rate was 2s.6d. in the Pound, and that the average price of copper was GBP 6 in the ton, the dues upon which were 1-15th, or 8s. per ton. . Mr. Boger here entered into a complex calculation, the items of which we could not catch, but by which he attempted to show that the poor-rate upon the above basis, would not exceed 1d. in the Pound, and contended that no rate of dues would affect legitimate mining, as they would be so small in calculating the contribution to the rate. He was acquainted with some of the largest mines, and considered that when mines ceased to work the burthen was very heavy. . Taking the three largest districts, he did not think the rentals were increased by working the mines. There was very little difference in the rates when the mines were at work. He could illustrate the manner in which they were affected. . In the parish of Beerferris, the legal expenses for removals amounted to about GBP 3 per head, and the mines did not pay to the maintenance of the poor. Therefore, the rate-payers considered it a very great hardship on them.The agriculturists, as a body, were not anxious to have mines in their neighbourhood. The farmers were only benefited to the extent of saving the amount of carriage of the produce to market, as the commons being built upon, it was consumed by the occupiers. The parishioners were the ratepayers and not the miners, and it was unfair that they should support the mining poor, as the amount of benefit received by them was so small that it had no relation to the poverty. . He considered that the lessee of the mine ought to pay the rate, because the law rated the occupier and not the landlord. In existing contracts he would divide the charge between the lessee and the lessor, on the same principle as in Ireland. . With regard to the removal of the poor, the expense was not confined to the removal alone, but extended to other charges. The average sickness of miners, as compared with other inhabitants, was as three to one, and in accidents as two to one. The clubs contributed to miners in case of accident, and not for the wear and tear of the system; and it must not be forgotten that miners were subject to a disease something like consumption, which was called the miners' disease. . By the Chairman - The property he represented comprised Tamar Mines, East Tamar, South Tamar, Tavy Consols, Bottle Hill, Wheal Sidney, Wheal Friendship, Wheal Jewel, Old Wheal Jewel, Combe Martin Consols, in Devon; and Par Consols, Polgooth, Crinnis, South Crinnis, Wheal Regent, Treviskey, Carvannal, and Ting-tang in Cornwall. Also interested in Wheal Exmouth and Adams, Porkellis United, Par Consols, and Treviskey. . He never had but one share in a mine as an adventurer. He was aware that mining was attended with great risk and hazard, and that they employed the labouring poor extensively. In his experience the rates of parishes had not materially decreased. There was no appreciable [...] reference. . Mr. Boger was further examined by the committee at some length, on the character and habits of working miners, whom he characterized as a very diligent and religiously disposed body. In reference to [...] timber, he said he thought the succession duty was sufficient burthen on that. He thought the adventurers should be rated in conformity with the law of England. Whilst, on the other hand, it would be exceedingly difficult to find the owner of the dues in some cases. He knew that in Par Consols, the purser held GBP 1,700 in dues, in consequence of the difficulty, owing to some dispute, of [finding] the lord. . [Mr. Boger then revised his testimony regarding his calculations regarding the amount per ton paid towards the rate, which had been in error. Captain S. Seccombe was called to elucidate it. Capt. Seccombe and Mr. Boger then withdrew.] . [Testimony was resumed with Sir J. PAXTON, of Derbyshire, agent to the Duke of Devonshire. Basically, he held that the whole of the dues on mines were rated for the poor, the highway, and the tithes; but the dues depend upon the will of the lessor. In almost every case, miners petitioned the Duke to reduce their dues; in almost every case, the dues were reduced by one-third. The same with tithes. He also stated "the customs of Derbyshire were very different to those in Cornwall. They did not grant leases in Derbyshire, and the miners could go wherever they liked to search for ore. The bar-master was appointed to see to the dues and "..." out the customs, and his duty was to see that justice was done to the lord and the miner. ... The only men who did any good in Derbyshire [in mining] were small miners, and the difficulty would be in collecting a rate from them.] . Any body could open a mine any where they pleased, and had only to buy a pick and shovel to begin. They had the power to go in front of your house and dig, but they must go to the bar master. It was, however, a very rare occurrence that anything of the kind was done. The mining population were a very quiet race of people, and had no disposition to annoy others. Although they had the power, they really did not use it. . At the conclusion of this evidence, the committee adjourned until Friday. . . END