----Original Message Follows---- From: "Paula Wiegand" <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: new question.... Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:48:36 -5.00 > I wrote a 30 page paper a year ago spring on how to use the census for > genealogy research This is a bit different than a genealogy record...i.e. a will or some such thing....and yes, I agree with the part of the post, that if you put it on the net, you have to be vigulant about watching that no one copies it... >No there isn't Seems to me on one of the University sites...I saw some maps that couldn't be downloaded...you might want to make in inquery with a university... > I don't think anyone would try and steal it by writing it all over again since it's > 30 pages (and I'm still working on some), but i don't want anyone to be able > copy it either. I agree with you here, people who steal the work of others are too lazy to write it over again for themselves. No one wants to steal works...but when you copyright something and try to scare people into making them think you have a copyright on it, that's just as bad as stealing it... The only easily available way to protect your work is to take the file to Kinkos and ask them to convert it to an Adobe Acrobat Acrobate reader is only a portion of this software...they also have a program that makes the .pdf files...and much like a word document in MSWord, they can be accessed via that software I'm sure... I should say I am not a big fan of the acrobat reader, but I would much prefer to use that then lose access to good quality information via the internet. .pdf is suppose to be the standard for documents on the web....although you see more .tif files in genealogy.... However, if you published your book in paper form you would have the same problem....<g>...anyone could make a photocopy of it....best way to prevent theft is to put it under your mattress...sorry, couldn't resist that...<g>... Charlotte _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Ok, new question for everyone. I tried asking this on the webmaster's page and no one was able to help me, since it's sort of about copyright, I'm hoping maybe someone on this list who maintains a page can help. I wrote a 30 page paper a year ago spring on how to use the census for genealogy research. I would like to put this paper on my webpage, but I haven't yet because I am afraid that someone might steal it and claim it as their own by copying and pasting the paper and changing who wrote it, etc. Is there a way to put this info on a webpage and make it so the "copy" command is disabled on the edit menu and the right mouse button? I don't think anyone would try and steal it by writing it all over again since it's 30 pages (and I'm still working on some), but i don't want anyone to be able copy it either. Thanks for your input! Erin Bradford [email protected] http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository)

Not unless it's original...i.e. copying information from a will book is not an original work, transcribed, abstracted or whatever....compilation is just the compiling of information...on the net that is a database.... Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Belinda & Dave Savadge" <[email protected]> Reply-To: "Belinda & Dave Savadge" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:44:21 -0400 >From what I understand from my attorney is that you can copyright your compilation but not the facts. Compilation Copyrights are the order in which you put things. Belinda [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Lorine McGinnis Schulze <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:32 PM Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >My husband is a lawyer. > >Copyright laws of course do not apply to a link but they DO apply >to the organization of a set of links, to the coding used to display >them, to the creative display around such links, etc. > >I do not wish to discuss Cyndi's site as it is not mine but The Olive >Tree information is information that I collect, transcribe, and labour >over for hours deciding how it will be displayed on my pages. I own >the copyright to that-- to the coding, the page itself, the layout of >the page on which the material resides, the order in which the >material appears and to the personal research notes and additional >materials I have added to the original records. > >So -- if I transcribe a ship's passenger list -- the names of the >passengers are not copyright to me but the way I have set that >page up to display the material, the extra information I have added, >the organization of my materials, and so on -- ARE. > >Anyone who takes my work and attempts to pawn it off as their >own will be in for quite a surprise if they try to claim that they >personally transcribed it. Why? Because, as I noted in my previous >emails, those of us who work this hard to assist the genealogical >community have methods in place to prove that a page in its >entirety was lifted. > >Lorine > >Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:38:55 PDT >To: [email protected] >Forwarded by: [email protected] > >> I'm a lawyer and I handle copyright cases.... >> >> And yes, someone could do exactly what you have said...Charlotte >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:20 -0400 >> >> You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws >> much more carefully. >> >> Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not >> how people (mis)interpret it. >> >> My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet >> are copyright protected. >> >> By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the >> cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical >> Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. >> >> However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info on >> a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who >> publishes that info has copyright to their publication. >> >> Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, >> labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they >> dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they >> are in violation of copyright. >> >> Lorine >> >> >> >> Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >> Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT >> To: [email protected] >> Forwarded by: [email protected] >> >> > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is >> contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not >> copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are >> very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you >> cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first >> place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has not >> passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and most >> predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the >> genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or >> the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to >> download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a >> copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the >> other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright >> someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and >> specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public >> info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an >> original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a >> program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use >> FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > >> > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the >> right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright >> lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > >> ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" >> <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 >> -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online sites >> regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues >> at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses >> succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page >> layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs >> themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, >> the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " >> Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you >> CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would >> constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > >> http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has registered >> her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright Office >> (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's >> primary source documents > online against those who feel they can simply >> take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > >> Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 >> 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: >> [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial >> notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on >> how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying to >> pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it >> accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > believe, >> they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > >> court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > >> anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan >> > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had >> > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > >> genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > >> their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't >> > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > >> ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > >> [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > >> > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list >> (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find >> out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material >> that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a >> library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > >> technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > >> understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain >> surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames I >> don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, >> cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those >> facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > >> Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > >> understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public >> records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from >> using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like >> genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or not? >> Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________________________ > > Get >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >> >> >> >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze >> [email protected] >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >> * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com >> > > > >Lorine McGinnis Schulze >[email protected] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >* The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >* The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Not unless there is something original and creative about the organization of the set of links...the coding used to display them...if you're speaking of the link that's public address, if you're talking about the web page design...if it's orginial it can be copyrighted... Ever hear of the phone book...that was the case that just said the collections of this sort could not be copyrighted...that's why you see so many phone books now...<g>... Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:31:38 -0400 My husband is a lawyer. Copyright laws of course do not apply to a link but they DO apply to the organization of a set of links, to the coding used to display them, to the creative display around such links, etc. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Yes, that is correct...I'm sure those in genealogy are only interested in the names of the passengers...there are too many programs out to produce pages for anyone to have to use the creative portions of your pages...your notes are original...that's exactly what I said... Any notes on my family members by someone else are probably not correct so I wouldn't want to use them anyway...<g>... Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:31:38 -0400 So -- if I transcribe a ship's passenger list -- the names of the passengers are not copyright to me _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

This is the latest on the database legislation...direct from the Copyright office....Charlotte DATABASE PROTECTION AMENDED AND VOTED OUT OF COMMITTEE; NEW MEASURE INTRODUCED IN COMMERCE H. R. 354, the Collections of Information Antipiracy Act, was amended and reported out of the House Intellectual Property Subcommittee on May 20 and further refined and reported out by the Judiciary Committee on May 26. The bill would offer protection to collections of information such as electronic databases under the Copyright Act, by relying on unfair competition principles to prevent a party from misappropriating another's collection of information. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

That is a moral issue, not a copyright issue...Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> Reply-To: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? - setting the record straight AGAIN Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:09:50 -0700 -----Original Message----- WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! I have never done this!! I have never downloaded information from the net for web pages. I have always searched orignial documents and made indexes or abstracts on my own. The quote at the bottom of this post has been taken out of context to change the meaning of what I said -- which is that one should NOT copy someone else's page even if the information on that page is public informaiton. The quote is even cut off mid sentence! I really RESENT these accusations and personal attacks on my honesty and integrety. Karen Bush _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

I'm a lawyer and I handle copyright cases.... And yes, someone could do exactly what you have said...Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:20 -0400 You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws much more carefully. Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not how people (mis)interpret it. My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet are copyright protected. By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info on a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who publishes that info has copyright to their publication. Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they are in violation of copyright. Lorine Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has not passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and most predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online sites regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has registered her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright Office (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's primary source documents > online against those who feel they can simply take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying to pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > believe, they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or not? Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Karen, I am horrified that you would even suggest such an act of outright copyright infringement on this list! To suggest that a person might be able to steal someone else's page and change it slightly so that others don't know it was stolen is completely inappropriate. Your remarks are exactly the reason why many of us with large websites chock full of primary source data (like The Olive Tree) have had to put up hidden defenses against such acts. Yes folks -- if you try Karen's idea on my page, or on many others such as Cyndi's List you'll find yourself embroiled in a huge copyright infringement action. Copyright is copyright -- and trying to steal someone else's hard work is copyright infringement. DON'T take someone else's work, change it and put it on your own site unless you are prepared for a battle. I have fought dozens of cases of copyright infringement from my Olive Tree site (successfully) and will continue to do so. However, think before you try this trick -- first, it is copyright infringement and secondly, if enough people do this, you can say goodbye to the sites like Olive Tree that are actively attempting to bring primary source documents to you, the researcher. Why? Because eventually I, and others like me, will simply pull their pages and say sayonara. It is the researcher who will lose in the end. So if the fact that this little trick is illegal doesn't stop you, think about the loss of genealogical data. You can bet that someone that would stoop this low will never get off their butt to get out into the world of archives and libraries and Family History Centres to actually *find* the data, transcribe it, code it, add their own research notes, and then offer it freely online to all. I do. The Olive Tree is where I offer my hard work. There are many like me out there - who *do* get out and work very hard to bring information to other researchers. THINK before you do anything --- and remember that the Internet copyright laws are the same as those in 'the real world' --- and going into a library, taking a book from their shelves, copying it in full, then republishing it under your name is ILLEGAL. Lorine Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:59:25 -0700 To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > > Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and > repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one > would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't > think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No she is not correct. Having studied several online sites regarding copyright laws, I find Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues at http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm addresses succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text and page layout and design. Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs themselves are not copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, the html code, and any descriptive text. She also states: " Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because you CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing so would constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] Cyndi herself has registered her html source code (among other things) with the US Copyright Office (as stated on her webpage) I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's primary source documents online against those who feel they can simply take what I spent hours creating. That is a copyright violation. Lorine Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:01 PDT To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected]b.com > Yes, you are correct...any editorial notes by the original author might be > off limits...depends on how public they are and when they were > added...Congress is trying to pass a database bill....but they can't seem > to get it accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, I > believe, they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but the > court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list (I've been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find out if I understand the copyright law concerning > online material that is public domain info. I work in the reference > section of a library and have read quite a few books on it, but with such > technical language, it's hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > understanding...using an example: > > I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find > info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like > census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I > can copy those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... > > Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my > understanding, > a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the > format, and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page > (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right > about this, or not? Thanks for the input! > > Erin Bradford > [email protected] > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Primary Source documents i.e. from State Archive etc...are not original ...they are public documents...therefore you cannot copyright them to begin with...it is not illegal to download them from the net...State Archives etc....make a lot of money from their documents...if anyone would have the copyright it would be them...but you don't see a copyright notice on them do you? Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:03:59 -0400 Karen, I am horrified that you would even suggest such an act of outright copyright infringement on this list! To suggest that a person might be able to steal someone else's page and change it slightly so that others don't know it was stolen is completely inappropriate. Your remarks are exactly the reason why many of us with large websites chock full of primary source data (like The Olive Tree) have had to put up hidden defenses against such acts. Yes folks -- if you try Karen's idea on my page, or on many others such as Cyndi's List you'll find yourself embroiled in a huge copyright infringement action. Copyright is copyright -- and trying to steal someone else's hard work is copyright infringement. DON'T take someone else's work, change it and put it on your own site unless you are prepared for a battle. I have fought dozens of cases of copyright infringement from my Olive Tree site (successfully) and will continue to do so. However, think before you try this trick -- first, it is copyright infringement and secondly, if enough people do this, you can say goodbye to the sites like Olive Tree that are actively attempting to bring primary source documents to you, the researcher. Why? Because eventually I, and others like me, will simply pull their pages and say sayonara. It is the researcher who will lose in the end. So if the fact that this little trick is illegal doesn't stop you, think about the loss of genealogical data. You can bet that someone that would stoop this low will never get off their butt to get out into the world of archives and libraries and Family History Centres to actually *find* the data, transcribe it, code it, add their own research notes, and then offer it freely online to all. I do. The Olive Tree is where I offer my hard work. There are many like me out there - who *do* get out and work very hard to bring information to other researchers. THINK before you do anything --- and remember that the Internet copyright laws are the same as those in 'the real world' --- and going into a library, taking a book from their shelves, copying it in full, then republishing it under your name is ILLEGAL. Lorine Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:59:25 -0700 To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > > Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and > repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one > would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't > think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is contrary to the current state of the law.... Links are not copyrightable...only original material is copyrightable....links are very very public... Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you cannot copyright that which is not copyrightable in the first place...your documents you refer to are a database and congress has not passed legislation to include them in the copyright law yet....and most predict that it will not pass... Generally what happens in the genealogy community, you either put an OK to download on the page or the one who wants the information requests that they be allowed to download the information.... The other problem with making a link a copyright is that you've taken the information for the link from the other site...so to try and copyright a link is to try and copyright someone else's information or site address...not possible...and specifically not covered under copyright...link addresses are public info... The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an original design etc....source code is programing, did she write a program?...html code doesn't amount to much...but then I use FrontPage98 for my web pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the right to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright lawsuits run about $100,000.00 from start to trial... Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 -0400 No she is not correct. Having studied several online sites regarding copyright laws, I find Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues at http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm addresses succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text and page layout and design. Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs themselves are not copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, the html code, and any descriptive text. She also states: " Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because you CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing so would constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] Cyndi herself has registered her html source code (among other things) with the US Copyright Office (as stated on her webpage) I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's primary source documents online against those who feel they can simply take what I spent hours creating. That is a copyright violation. Lorine Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:01 PDT To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > Yes, you are correct...any editorial notes by the original author might be > off limits...depends on how public they are and when they were > added...Congress is trying to pass a database bill....but they can't seem > to get it accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, I > believe, they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but the > court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list (I've been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find out if I understand the copyright law concerning > online material that is public domain info. I work in the reference > section of a library and have read quite a few books on it, but with such > technical language, it's hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > understanding...using an example: > > I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find > info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like > census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I > can copy those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... > > Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my > understanding, > a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the > format, and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page > (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right > about this, or not? Thanks for the input! > > Erin Bradford > [email protected] > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Mike: THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR EXCELLENT WEBSITE!!! WOW!!! You have helped so many of us with your in depth explanations and quoting of the copyright law. Keep up the good work! Lila of VA - ------------------------------------------------------ > I have a site for U. S. copyright and genealogy at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/copyright1.htm >

I was notified that someone had copied a page from one of my sites word for word and format for format. After they refused to remove the work or at least credit me for it, I wrote to their webhost, Tripod, who gave them 24 hours to remove the copied data or they would delete the site, which they eventually ended up doing. > >(3) Your e-mails are yours. For someone to post your messages to their >site without your explicit permission is a gross violation of copyright >law. I, too, have found messages of mine posted on the internet on a >surname site without my permission. Unfortunately, there is not a lot that >can be done about it. Christine's Genealogy Website http://ccharity.com The Freedmen's Bureau Online http://freedmensbureau.com Censuslinks on the Internet http://censuslinks.com/directory/

I have a site for U. S. copyright and genealogy at http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/copyright1.htm At 04:57 PM 6/1/99 EDT, [email protected] wrote: >I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find info >on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like census, >marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I can copy >those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... The key is originality. If a page consists of nothing but facts and ideas, then all that is protected by copyright law is that which is original. For a compilation to be copyrightable it must meet all of the following to qualify as a copyrightable compilation: 1. the collection and assembly of pre-existing material, facts, or data; 2. the selection, coordination, or arrangement of those materials; and 3. the creation, by virtue of the particular selection, coordination, or arrangement of an original work of authorship. At 02:59 PM 6/1/99 -0700, Karen Bush wrote: >Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and >repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one >would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't >think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has >spent a lot of time and money getting copies of records and the hours of >typing setting up the on web pages. For my own county website, I had spent >hours combing old 1800's newspapers for material to enrich my site and >mailing list. I really wasn't happy when someone started taking my emails >and posting them verbatim on their website and saying that I submitted them >to their site -- which I hadn't. Actually, you are talking about three different things. (1) The hours and hours of typing facts on the web pages fall under the old concept of "sweat of the brow" which is not protected by copyright law. There is no originality in the transcription of facts... and no copyright protection. (2) However, your particular selection of facts and arrangement on your web pages is likely to be protectable under copyright law. (3) Your e-mails are yours. For someone to post your messages to their site without your explicit permission is a gross violation of copyright law. I, too, have found messages of mine posted on the internet on a surname site without my permission. Unfortunately, there is not a lot that can be done about it. ________________ The Goad Family; Dover, AR, USA; mailto:[email protected] ; http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/ ; free DAR Patriot Index Lookups: http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/dar.html; Our on-line "bookstore:" http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks Sponsor (Plus) of RootsWeb - To support cooperative, non-commercial, grass-roots genealogy go to http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Hi Erin, > >I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find info >on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like census, >marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I can copy >those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... > >Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my understanding, >a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the format, >and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page (when it >is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right about this, >or not? Thanks for the input! > >Erin Bradford Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has spent a lot of time and money getting copies of records and the hours of typing setting up the on web pages. For my own county website, I had spent hours combing old 1800's newspapers for material to enrich my site and mailing list. I really wasn't happy when someone started taking my emails and posting them verbatim on their website and saying that I submitted them to their site -- which I hadn't. In the long run, I think it is better to link to a page and let a person have credit for their hard work, and keep good feelings in the genealogical community. JMPO Karen Bush [email protected]

Is there anyone on this list with knowledge of CANADIAN copyright laws?? I was originally told that old census records (ie, 1861 etc....) were legal to be indexed. Know I am being informed that this in NOT legal??? Someone please help me understand the matter?? Kris

Hi. I just joined this list (I've been here a few other times though), and I'm wanting to find out if I understand the copyright law concerning online material that is public domain info. I work in the reference section of a library and have read quite a few books on it, but with such technical language, it's hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my understanding...using an example: I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I can copy those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my understanding, a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the format, and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right about this, or not? Thanks for the input! Erin Bradford [email protected] http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository)

Or request if you can use the info...I have actual scanned documents on my web site and it doesn't bother me at all for anyone to download them...just don't sell them...I'd rather share them, so maybe someone else can spend their hard earned money on records from somewhere else and post them to the web....some of the Archives charge an outrage fee for documents and if you're out of state they tack a research fee on to ...so you're $10.00 to $15.00 in the hole before you start and you haven't gotten anything to show for your money spent.... IMHO...Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> Reply-To: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:59:25 -0700 Hi Erin, > >I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find info >on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like census, >marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I can copy >those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... > >Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my understanding, >a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the format, >and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page (when it >is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right about this, >or not? Thanks for the input! > >Erin Bradford Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has spent a lot of time and money getting copies of records and the hours of typing setting up the on web pages. For my own county website, I had spent hours combing old 1800's newspapers for material to enrich my site and mailing list. I really wasn't happy when someone started taking my emails and posting them verbatim on their website and saying that I submitted them to their site -- which I hadn't. In the long run, I think it is better to link to a page and let a person have credit for their hard work, and keep good feelings in the genealogical community. JMPO Karen Bush [email protected] _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Yes, you are correct...any editorial notes by the original author might be off limits...depends on how public they are and when they were added...Congress is trying to pass a database bill....but they can't seem to get it accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, I believe, they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but the court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so anyone could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan any of the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had added to the original opinion.... What you'll find in most genealogical groups is a standard to ask the poster if you can use their info...if like most of us we want to find our ancestors we don't mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT Hi. I just joined this list (I've been here a few other times though), and I'm wanting to find out if I understand the copyright law concerning online material that is public domain info. I work in the reference section of a library and have read quite a few books on it, but with such technical language, it's hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my understanding...using an example: I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage where I find info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public info, like census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I understand it that I can copy those facts and paste them onto my webpage in my own format.... Basically, that doesn't come across exactly right, but from my understanding, a person cannot copy the facts and info from public records, only the format, and they cannot prohibit someone from using the info on their page (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I right about this, or not? Thanks for the input! Erin Bradford [email protected] http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com