The question becomes who holds the copyright...if you needed to ask permission to reprint...Charlotte >From: Mike Goad <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Newspaper article >Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 13:28:59 -0500 > > >Original works, no matter how large or small, are copyrighted under todays >copyright laws (in the U.S.) no matter who wrote them. > >Newspaper obituaries may not satisfy the standard for originality because >they are written by a standard process or procedure. No originiality... >just plug in the name of the deceased and his/her life information, name of >survivors, where the services will be held and who to send memorial >donations to. > >The 1976 Act ...s 102(b), which identifies specifically those elements >of a work for which copyright is not available: "In no case does copyright >protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, >procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or >discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, >illustrated, or embodied in such work." (FEIST PUBLICATIONS, INC., >Petitioner v. RURAL TELEPHONE SERVICE COMPANY, INC. >http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/feist.htm and >http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/code.htm ) > >Mike Goad > > >________________ >The Goad Family; Dover, AR, USA; mailto:[email protected] ; >http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/ ; free DAR Patriot Index Lookups: >http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/dar.html; Our on-line "bookstore:" >http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks > >Sponsor (Plus) of RootsWeb - To support cooperative, non-commercial, >grass-roots genealogy go to >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Well, I was thinking of some of the longer obits where they may have a column or so of family history...but I don't think the paper could copyright that anyway if a family member wrote it, as most I know of are...and placing it in the paper may put it in the public domain anyway... Charlotte >From: Mike Goad <[email protected]> >To: Charlotte ~ <[email protected]>, [email protected] >Subject: Re: Newspaper article >Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 13:28:59 -0500 > >At 10:52 AM 6/5/99 PDT, Charlotte ~ wrote: > >Well, obits are written by someone, if anyone the family, they provide >the > >information...they are facts usually not original stories so not > >copyrightable...even the longer obits are usually written by a family >member > >so they might have the copyright but not the paper...facts at present are > >not copyrightable...the concern is that the database bills will change > >that.... > >Original works, no matter how large or small, are copyrighted under todays >copyright laws (in the U.S.) no matter who wrote them. > >Newspaper obituaries may not satisfy the standard for originality because >they are written by a standard process or procedure. No originiality... >just plug in the name of the deceased and his/her life information, name of >survivors, where the services will be held and who to send memorial >donations to. > >The 1976 Act ...s 102(b), which identifies specifically those elements >of a work for which copyright is not available: "In no case does copyright >protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, >procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or >discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, >illustrated, or embodied in such work." (FEIST PUBLICATIONS, INC., >Petitioner v. RURAL TELEPHONE SERVICE COMPANY, INC. >http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/feist.htm and >http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/code.htm ) > >Mike Goad > > >________________ >The Goad Family; Dover, AR, USA; mailto:[email protected] ; >http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/ ; free DAR Patriot Index Lookups: >http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/dar.html; Our on-line "bookstore:" >http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks > >Sponsor (Plus) of RootsWeb - To support cooperative, non-commercial, >grass-roots genealogy go to >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Well, obits are written by someone, if anyone the family, they provide the information...they are facts usually not original stories so not copyrightable...even the longer obits are usually written by a family member so they might have the copyright but not the paper...facts at present are not copyrightable...the concern is that the database bills will change that.... Charlotte >From: Joe <[email protected]> >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: Charlotte ~ <[email protected]> >CC: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Newspaper article >Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 13:29:02 -0400 > >Hi Carlotte, > >I have seen your evaluation on obits before. Could you inform us why obits >are treated differently than other newspaper articles? They were written >by >someone, too. > >Thanks, > >Charlotte ~ wrote: > > > > Articles are written by reporters and yes, they are copyrighted...obits >are > > different...they are not copyrighted at present....Charlotte > > > > >-- > >joe > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Hmmm...just not that familiar with newspapers...but the paper may have a general copyright on that as well even if there is no reporter on it...but I don't think most papers mind as long as you don't try to take the entire paper and resell it or something...Charlotte >From: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Newspaper article >Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:21:25 EDT > >Any articles/ obits/ etc that are written by reporters will have a byline. >No byline= not written by a reporter= not copyrighted. >Dave > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Articles are written by reporters and yes, they are copyrighted...obits are different...they are not copyrighted at present....Charlotte >From: Jessica L Petrie <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Newspaper article >Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 23:05:04 -0500 > >I have a newspaper article that I would like to put on USGenWeb. Is this >against copyright laws? What about obituaries, etc.? >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

I have a newspaper article that I would like to put on USGenWeb. Is this against copyright laws? What about obituaries, etc.? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

This is the latest on the database bill... http://www.lawnewsnetwork.com/practice/iplaw/news/A2010-1999Jun3.html Charlotte _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

At 01:41 PM 6/2/99 PDT, Charlotte wrote: >Not unless there is something original and creative about the organization >of the set of links...the coding used to display them...if you're speaking >of the link that's public address, if you're talking about the web page >design...if it's orginial it can be copyrighted... > >Ever hear of the phone book...that was the case that just said the >collections of this sort could not be copyrighted...that's why you see so >many phone books now...<g>... The case was: FEIST PUBLICATIONS, INC., Petitioner v. RURAL TELEPHONE SERVICE COMPANY, INC. Argued Jan. 9, 1991. Decided March 27, 1991. There is a lot of applicability for compilatyions in genealogy in the Supreme Court opinion on this case by Sandra Day O'Connor. The entire text can be found at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/feist.htm An example from the text: "Even if a work qualifies as a copyrightable compilation, it receives only limited protection. This is the point of s 103 of the Act. Section 103 explains that "[t]he subject matter of copyright ... includes compilations," s 103(a), but that copyright protects only the author's original contributions--not the facts or information conveyed." And, though I'm not a lawyer, it is certainly easier reading than many of the old source documents that genealogists search for. Mike ________________ The Goad Family; Dover, AR, USA; mailto:[email protected] ; http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/ ; free DAR Patriot Index Lookups: http://www.cswnet.com/~mgoad/dar.html; Our on-line "bookstore:" http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks Sponsor (Plus) of RootsWeb - To support cooperative, non-commercial, grass-roots genealogy go to http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

West publishing just lost their bit for the Supreme Court to hear their case: West Denied Supreme Court Review On Copyright Claim Legal publishers at West Group have fallen short in their effort to copyright internal pagination and editorial enhancements to court decisions. On Tuesday, the U.S. Supreme Court denied review of two separate decisions of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that went against West, West Publishing Co. v. Matthew Bender & Co. Inc., and West Publishing Co. v. HyperLaw Inc. (The Recorder -- Read the story.) Their only hope is the database bill...but some are saying they don't think the bill will pass...West has tried to get a similar bill passed with the Bono Amendment and it was deleted so the Bono Amendment would pass...in other words if the database protection clause would have been left in the Bono Amendment it would not have passed.... Charlotte _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

There is a difference between a book analysing census records and a web page listing names on it from say a passenger list...his census book contains original material i.e. his analysis on the census records as opposed to say an index of the names in say the 1850 census, which is not copyrightable...Charlotte >From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> >To: [email protected], Charlotte ~ <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: new question.... >Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:16:25 -0400 > > > > > > However, if you published your book in paper form you would have the >same > > problem....<g>...anyone could make a photocopy of it....best way to > > prevent theft is to put it under your mattress...sorry, couldn't resist > > that...<g>... > > > > Charlotte > > > > >The point being made is that while anyone can copy that 'book' for >their own use and might not be caught, they cannot republish it >under their name without being caught in a copyright infringement. > >It's the same online. If you copy my webpage and republish it under >your name, you're in violation of copyright. > > > >Lorine McGinnis Schulze >[email protected] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >* The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >* The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

GenWeb has a large site devoted to copyright issues which is well worth reading in its entirety. Kathleen. http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/copyright.html#Gen Copyright State. "What is covered by Copyright - There has been some discussion that authors/publishers cannot copyright facts. This is and isn't true. The original records cannot be copyrighted, but for example, a compilation of them can be. Anyone, however, is free to consult the original records and make their own compilation and are free to do whatever they want with them. But, even though someone abstracts/transcribes public records, they cannot be tossed about either. The law specifically recognizes the right of the person doing the work, in this case the transcriber, to be compensated for their work. An article, poem, etc. may be copyrighted individually, but it is also covered if the publication in which it appears is copyrighted. Accumulated genealogical information, to the extent that it is an expression, can be protected, but the facts in the information cannot be protected."

> > However, if you published your book in paper form you would have the same > problem....<g>...anyone could make a photocopy of it....best way to > prevent theft is to put it under your mattress...sorry, couldn't resist > that...<g>... > > Charlotte > The point being made is that while anyone can copy that 'book' for their own use and might not be caught, they cannot republish it under their name without being caught in a copyright infringement. It's the same online. If you copy my webpage and republish it under your name, you're in violation of copyright. Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are RIGHT Charlotte. Thank you. Belinda [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Charlotte ~ <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:56 PM Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Not unless it's original...i.e. copying information from a will book is not >an original work, transcribed, abstracted or whatever....compilation is just >the compiling of information...on the net that is a database.... > >Charlotte > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: "Belinda & Dave Savadge" <[email protected]> >Reply-To: "Belinda & Dave Savadge" <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:44:21 -0400 > >>From what I understand from my attorney is that you can copyright your >compilation but not the facts. Compilation Copyrights are the order in which >you put things. > >Belinda >[email protected] > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Lorine McGinnis Schulze <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:32 PM >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > > > >My husband is a lawyer. > > > >Copyright laws of course do not apply to a link but they DO apply > >to the organization of a set of links, to the coding used to display > >them, to the creative display around such links, etc. > > > >I do not wish to discuss Cyndi's site as it is not mine but The Olive > >Tree information is information that I collect, transcribe, and labour > >over for hours deciding how it will be displayed on my pages. I own > >the copyright to that-- to the coding, the page itself, the layout of > >the page on which the material resides, the order in which the > >material appears and to the personal research notes and additional > >materials I have added to the original records. > > > >So -- if I transcribe a ship's passenger list -- the names of the > >passengers are not copyright to me but the way I have set that > >page up to display the material, the extra information I have added, > >the organization of my materials, and so on -- ARE. > > > >Anyone who takes my work and attempts to pawn it off as their > >own will be in for quite a surprise if they try to claim that they > >personally transcribed it. Why? Because, as I noted in my previous > >emails, those of us who work this hard to assist the genealogical > >community have methods in place to prove that a page in its > >entirety was lifted. > > > >Lorine > > > >Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) > >From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > >Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:38:55 PDT > >To: [email protected] > >Forwarded by: [email protected] > > > >> I'm a lawyer and I handle copyright cases.... > >> > >> And yes, someone could do exactly what you have said...Charlotte > >> > >> ----Original Message Follows---- > >> From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:20 -0400 > >> > >> You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws > >> much more carefully. > >> > >> Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not > >> how people (mis)interpret it. > >> > >> My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet > >> are copyright protected. > >> > >> By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the > >> cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical > >> Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. > >> > >> However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info >on > >> a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who > >> publishes that info has copyright to their publication. > >> > >> Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, > >> labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they > >> dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they > >> are in violation of copyright. > >> > >> Lorine > >> > >> > >> > >> Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) > >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > >> Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT > >> To: [email protected] > >> Forwarded by: [email protected] > >> > >> > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is > >> contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not > >> copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are > >> very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you > >> cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first > >> place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has >not > >> passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and >most > >> predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the > >> genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or > >> the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to > >> download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a > >> copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the > >> other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright > >> someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and > >> specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public > >> info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an > >> original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a > >> program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use > >> FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > > > >> > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the > >> right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright > >> lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > > > >> ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" > >> <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: > >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 > >> -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online >sites > >> regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues > >> at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses > >> succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page > >> layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs > >> themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the >URL, > >> the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " > >> Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you > >> CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would > >> constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > > >> http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has >registered > >> her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright >Office > >> (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's > >> primary source documents > online against those who feel they can >simply > >> take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > > >> Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > > >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: > >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 > >> 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: > >> [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial > >> notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on > >> how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying >to > >> pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it > >> accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > >believe, > >> they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > > >> court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > > >> anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't >scan > >> > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West >had > >> > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > > >> genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > > >> their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we >don't > >> > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > > >> ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > > >> [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > > > >> > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list > >> (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find > >> out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material > >> that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a > >> library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > > >> technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > > > >> understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain > >> surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames >I > >> don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, > >> cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those > >> facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > > >> Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > > >> understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public > >> records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from > >> using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like > >> genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or >not? > >> Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > > > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________________________ > > >Get > >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > > >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage >Project > >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________________________ > >Get > >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > >> > >> > >> > >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze > >> [email protected] > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > >> * The Canadian Military Heritage Project >http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________________________ > >> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >> > > > > > > > >Lorine McGinnis Schulze > >[email protected] > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >* The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > >* The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >

>From what I understand from my attorney is that you can copyright your compilation but not the facts. Compilation Copyrights are the order in which you put things. Belinda [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Lorine McGinnis Schulze <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:32 PM Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >My husband is a lawyer. > >Copyright laws of course do not apply to a link but they DO apply >to the organization of a set of links, to the coding used to display >them, to the creative display around such links, etc. > >I do not wish to discuss Cyndi's site as it is not mine but The Olive >Tree information is information that I collect, transcribe, and labour >over for hours deciding how it will be displayed on my pages. I own >the copyright to that-- to the coding, the page itself, the layout of >the page on which the material resides, the order in which the >material appears and to the personal research notes and additional >materials I have added to the original records. > >So -- if I transcribe a ship's passenger list -- the names of the >passengers are not copyright to me but the way I have set that >page up to display the material, the extra information I have added, >the organization of my materials, and so on -- ARE. > >Anyone who takes my work and attempts to pawn it off as their >own will be in for quite a surprise if they try to claim that they >personally transcribed it. Why? Because, as I noted in my previous >emails, those of us who work this hard to assist the genealogical >community have methods in place to prove that a page in its >entirety was lifted. > >Lorine > >Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:38:55 PDT >To: [email protected] >Forwarded by: [email protected] > >> I'm a lawyer and I handle copyright cases.... >> >> And yes, someone could do exactly what you have said...Charlotte >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:20 -0400 >> >> You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws >> much more carefully. >> >> Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not >> how people (mis)interpret it. >> >> My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet >> are copyright protected. >> >> By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the >> cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical >> Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. >> >> However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info on >> a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who >> publishes that info has copyright to their publication. >> >> Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, >> labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they >> dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they >> are in violation of copyright. >> >> Lorine >> >> >> >> Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >> Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT >> To: [email protected] >> Forwarded by: [email protected] >> >> > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is >> contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not >> copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are >> very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you >> cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first >> place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has not >> passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and most >> predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the >> genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or >> the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to >> download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a >> copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the >> other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright >> someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and >> specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public >> info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an >> original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a >> program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use >> FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > >> > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the >> right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright >> lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > >> ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" >> <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 >> -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online sites >> regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues >> at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses >> succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page >> layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs >> themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, >> the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " >> Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you >> CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would >> constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > >> http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has registered >> her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright Office >> (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's >> primary source documents > online against those who feel they can simply >> take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > >> Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > >> From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: >> copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 >> 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: >> [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial >> notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on >> how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying to >> pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it >> accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > believe, >> they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > >> court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > >> anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan >> > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had >> > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > >> genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > >> their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't >> > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > >> ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > >> [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > >> > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list >> (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find >> out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material >> that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a >> library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > >> technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > >> understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain >> surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames I >> don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, >> cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those >> facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > >> Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > >> understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public >> records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from >> using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like >> genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or not? >> Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________________________ > > Get >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get >> Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > >> >> >> >> Lorine McGinnis Schulze >> [email protected] >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >> * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________ >> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com >> > > > >Lorine McGinnis Schulze >[email protected] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >* The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >* The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >

My husband is a lawyer. Copyright laws of course do not apply to a link but they DO apply to the organization of a set of links, to the coding used to display them, to the creative display around such links, etc. I do not wish to discuss Cyndi's site as it is not mine but The Olive Tree information is information that I collect, transcribe, and labour over for hours deciding how it will be displayed on my pages. I own the copyright to that-- to the coding, the page itself, the layout of the page on which the material resides, the order in which the material appears and to the personal research notes and additional materials I have added to the original records. So -- if I transcribe a ship's passenger list -- the names of the passengers are not copyright to me but the way I have set that page up to display the material, the extra information I have added, the organization of my materials, and so on -- ARE. Anyone who takes my work and attempts to pawn it off as their own will be in for quite a surprise if they try to claim that they personally transcribed it. Why? Because, as I noted in my previous emails, those of us who work this hard to assist the genealogical community have methods in place to prove that a page in its entirety was lifted. Lorine Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:38:55 PDT To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > I'm a lawyer and I handle copyright cases.... > > And yes, someone could do exactly what you have said...Charlotte > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected], "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:20 -0400 > > You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws > much more carefully. > > Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not > how people (mis)interpret it. > > My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet > are copyright protected. > > By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the > cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical > Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. > > However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info on > a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who > publishes that info has copyright to their publication. > > Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, > labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they > dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they > are in violation of copyright. > > Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: [email protected] > > > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is > contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not > copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are > very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you > cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first > place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has not > passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and most > predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the > genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or > the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to > download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a > copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the > other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright > someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and > specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public > info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an > original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a > program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use > FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > > > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the > right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright > lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" > <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: > copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 > -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online sites > regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues > at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses > succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page > layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs > themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, > the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " > Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you > CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would > constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has registered > her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright Office > (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's > primary source documents > online against those who feel they can simply > take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > > Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: > copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 > 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: > [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial > notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on > how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying to > pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it > accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > believe, > they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > > court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > > anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan > > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had > > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > > genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > > their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't > > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > > ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > > [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > > > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list > (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find > out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material > that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a > library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > > technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > > understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain > surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames I > don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, > cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those > facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > > Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > > understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public > records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from > using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like > genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or not? > Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Get > Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project > http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get > Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Send reply to: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> > >>>>Karen, > > I am horrified that you would even suggest such an act of outright > copyright infringement on this list! >>>> > > > WAIT A MINUTE -- I did not suggest that some one do that. I feel you > have quoted me out of context and that you changed the meaning of what I > was saying by not looking at the whole paragraph. My meaning was that > while someone might be able to take facts from another webage -- which > facts are not copyrighted -- I said that it was not right to do that. > > <<<To suggest that a person might be able to steal someone else's > page and change it slightly so that others don't know it was stolen > is completely inappropriate. >>> > > I DID NOT suggest that someone steal another's work. Please re-read my words. Your message sounded like a "how-to" of copyright infringement. In other words "here is how to break copyright law even though I don't think you should" >I DID said that it > was wrong to do it. I think that it is unethical to take someone's work, > even though the information they used may be public domain information. > My opinion is that if you want to use some public domain information you > ought to go get the documents yourself and do the work, rather then take > someone else's work. > Your remarks may still be giving others the idea that they can go out and copy what they want regardless of copyright laws. Note that I said "can" not "may" -- you are informing others on a public, and archived list, that they can take others' work, but that in your opinion it is wrong. I believe that to be an inappropriate message to send on a public list and I also believe that those who didn't think of doing this before, will do so now.  It seems you and I are actually in agreement over the ethical questions but it really doesn't matter what you, or I, or anyone *thinks* about the morality of taking someone else's work -- the fact remains that it's against the copyright laws. I have not accused you of violating copyright laws -- I have only taken exception to your posting earlier today. If I have misunderstood your intent with your first email, then I stand corrected. Lorine Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message----- From: Charlotte ~ <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:01 AM Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Primary Source documents i.e. from State Archive etc...are not original >...they are public documents...therefore you cannot copyright them to begin >with...it is not illegal to download them from the net...State Archives >etc....make a lot of money from their documents...if anyone would have the >copyright it would be them...but you don't see a copyright notice on them do >you? > >Charlotte WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! I have never done this!! I have never downloaded information from the net for web pages. I have always searched orignial documents and made indexes or abstracts on my own. The quote at the bottom of this post has been taken out of context to change the meaning of what I said -- which is that one should NOT copy someone else's page even if the information on that page is public informaiton. The quote is even cut off mid sentence! I really RESENT these accusations and personal attacks on my honesty and integrety. Karen Bush > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:03:59 -0400 > >Karen, > >I am horrified that you would even suggest such an act of outright >copyright infringement on this list! > >To suggest that a person might be able to steal someone else's >page and change it slightly so that others don't know it was stolen >is completely inappropriate. > >Your remarks are exactly the reason why many of us with large >websites chock full of primary source data (like The Olive Tree) >have had to put up hidden defenses against such acts. > >Yes folks -- if you try Karen's idea on my page, or on many others >such as Cyndi's List you'll find yourself embroiled in a huge >copyright infringement action. > >Copyright is copyright -- and trying to steal someone else's hard >work is copyright infringement. > >DON'T take someone else's work, change it and put it on your own >site unless you are prepared for a battle. I have fought dozens of >cases of copyright infringement from my Olive Tree site >(successfully) and will continue to do so. > >However, think before you try this trick -- first, it is copyright >infringement and secondly, if enough people do this, you can say >goodbye to the sites like Olive Tree that are actively attempting to >bring primary source documents to you, the researcher. > >Why? Because eventually I, and others like me, will simply pull >their pages and say sayonara. It is the researcher who will lose in >the end. > >So if the fact that this little trick is illegal doesn't stop you, think >about the loss of genealogical data. You can bet that someone that >would stoop this low will never get off their butt to get out into the >world of archives and libraries and Family History Centres to >actually *find* the data, transcribe it, code it, add their own >research notes, and then offer it freely online to all. I do. The Olive >Tree is where I offer my hard work. There are many like me out >there - who *do* get out and work very hard to bring information to >other researchers. > >THINK before you do anything --- and remember that the Internet >copyright laws are the same as those in 'the real world' --- and >going into a library, taking a book from their shelves, copying it in >full, then republishing it under your name is ILLEGAL. > >Lorine > > >Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:04:50 -0700 (PDT) >Send reply to: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> >From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >Date sent: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:59:25 -0700 >To: [email protected] >Forwarded by: [email protected] > > > > > > Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and > > repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one > > would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't > > think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has > > >Lorine McGinnis Schulze >[email protected] >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >* The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ >* The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com >

-----Original Message----- From: Lorine McGinnis Schulze <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 4:11 AM Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? >>>>Karen, I am horrified that you would even suggest such an act of outright copyright infringement on this list! >>>> WAIT A MINUTE -- I did not suggest that some one do that. I feel you have quoted me out of context and that you changed the meaning of what I was saying by not looking at the whole paragraph. My meaning was that while someone might be able to take facts from another webage -- which facts are not copyrighted -- I said that it was not right to do that. <<<To suggest that a person might be able to steal someone else's page and change it slightly so that others don't know it was stolen is completely inappropriate. >>> I DID NOT suggest that someone steal another's work. I DID said that it was wrong to do it. I think that it is unethical to take someone's work, even though the information they used may be public domain information. My opinion is that if you want to use some public domain information you ought to go get the documents yourself and do the work, rather then take someone else's work. >>>>Your remarks are exactly the reason why many of us with large websites chock full of primary source data (like The Olive Tree) have had to put up hidden defenses against such acts.>>>> I believe you have mis-characterized my remarks by taking them out of context. I have never taken any information off of any other person's web page. In fact I have been the victim of such actions by another person on the web. The person's post that I was referring to, I was telling them that while facts might not be copyrighted to copy another person's page wos not right to do. >>>>Yes folks -- if you try Karen's idea on my page, or on many others such as Cyndi's List you'll find yourself embroiled in a huge copyright infringement action. >>>> Again -- I did not suggest that anyone do that and I RESENT being accused of suggesting others do this action -- I was saying that they SHOULD NOT! The Quote you snipped below is even cut off mid sentence -- in the middle of the part where I said one should not take someone else's work whether or not it is public domain because of the hours of work put into typing and money put into research to obtain the data. My feeling is that it is unethical and dishonest to do so. I also stated that I have been the victim of such copying so that should have also made my meaning and where I stand on the copying issue clear. In fact the person who made the original post was contemplating doing such copying and I said they should not do so. I feel that my honesty and intregity have been hurt by these accusations. They are now on the web to stay. I have been very careful to honor copyright. I have always sought permission from authors and newspapers if there is any thought at all a work may be copyrighted. I have done my own abstracts at much time and expense from original public records. I have never copied another person's web page and have in fact been the victim of such acts by others. Karen Bush >>>>Copyright is copyright -- and trying to steal someone else's hard work is copyright infringement. >>>>DON'T take someone else's work, change it and put it on your own site unless you are prepared for a battle. I have fought dozens of cases of copyright infringement from my Olive Tree site (successfully) and will continue to do so. >>>>However, think before you try this trick -- first, it is copyright infringement and secondly, if enough people do this, you can say goodbye to the sites like Olive Tree that are actively attempting to bring primary source documents to you, the researcher. >>>>Why? Because eventually I, and others like me, will simply pull their pages and say sayonara. It is the researcher who will lose in the end. >>>>So if the fact that this little trick is illegal doesn't stop you, think about the loss of genealogical data. You can bet that someone that would stoop this low will never get off their butt to get out into the world of archives and libraries and Family History Centres to actually *find* the data, transcribe it, code it, add their own research notes, and then offer it freely online to all. I do. The Olive Tree is where I offer my hard work. There are many like me out there - who *do* get out and work very hard to bring information to other researchers. >>>THINK before you do anything --- and remember that the Internet copyright laws are the same as those in 'the real world' --- and going into a library, taking a book from their shelves, copying it in full, then republishing it under your name is ILLEGAL. >>>Lorine Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Send reply to: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> From: "Karen Bush" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:59:25 -0700 To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > > Yes, you are correct. And if you did take the info from a webpage and > repost it on yours, most likely you can do it in such a way that no one > would know that you didn't look up the records yourself. BUT - I don't > think it is very nice thing to do, from the view point of someone who has Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are misinformed and I suggest you check the copyright laws much more carefully. Don't be misled by public opinion -- it is the law that counts, not how people (mis)interpret it. My pages, Cyndi's pages, and all the other pages on the internet are copyright protected. By your (mis)interpretation below, anyone could purchase the cemetery recordings that are for sale by various Genealogical Societies, copy them and republish them under their name. However -- that is a violation of copyright law. Even though the info on a gravestone is obviously public domain, the organization or person who publishes that info has copyright to their publication. Others may indeed walk the cemeteries for themselves, labouriously writing down all the data, and publishing it *but* if they dare to take the previously published work (whether online or off) they are in violation of copyright. Lorine Date forwarded: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date sent: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:49:20 PDT To: [email protected] Forwarded by: [email protected] > Well, no offense to Cindy...I really enjoy her site...but that is contrary > to the current state of the law.... > > Links are not copyrightable...only original material is > copyrightable....links are very very public... > > Public documents cannot be copyrighted...you cannot copyright that which > is not copyrightable in the first place...your documents you refer to are > a database and congress has not passed legislation to include them in the > copyright law yet....and most predict that it will not pass... > > Generally what happens in the genealogy community, you either put an OK to > download on the page or the one who wants the information requests that > they be allowed to download the information.... > > The other problem with making a link a copyright is that you've taken the > information for the link from the other site...so to try and copyright a > link is to try and copyright someone else's information or site > address...not possible...and specifically not covered under > copyright...link addresses are public info... > > The design of her pages she can copyright...if it is an original design > etc....source code is programing, did she write a program?...html code > doesn't amount to much...but then I use FrontPage98 for my web > pages...which is Microsoft's to begin with... > > Getting a copyright in the Copyright office, only means you have the right > to sue...doesn't mean you will win and believe me copyright lawsuits run > about $100,000.00 from start to trial... > > Charlotte > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:49:17 -0400 > > No she is not correct. > > Having studied several online sites regarding copyright laws, I find > Cyndi's page about Copyright Issues at > > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm > > > addresses succintly this problem of source codes, descriptive text > and page layout and design. > > Cyndi's article tells us that while URLs themselves are not > copyright, a link is. A link is defined as the URL, the html code, > and any descriptive text. > > She also states: > > " Source code for a web page is copyright protected. Just because > you CAN copy it, doesn't mean that you SHOULD copy it. Doing > so would constitute a copyright violation. " [Source: > http://www.CyndisList.com/copyrite.htm] > > Cyndi herself has registered her html source code (among other > things) with the US Copyright Office (as stated on her webpage) > > I have defended Olive Tree Genealogy's primary source documents > online against those who feel they can simply take what I spent > hours creating. That is a copyright violation. > > Lorine > > > > Date forwarded: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Charlotte ~" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? > Date sent: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:23:01 PDT > To: [email protected] > Forwarded by: [email protected] > > > Yes, you are correct...any editorial notes by the original author might > > be > > off limits...depends on how public they are and when they were > > added...Congress is trying to pass a database bill....but they can't > seem > to get it accepted...West Publishing just lost a big case in 1998, > I > believe, they are the official reporter for most court opinons...but > the > court said they didn't have a copyright on the court opinons, so > anyone > could scan them and put them on the net...but they couldn't scan > any of > the headings i.e. summaries or editorial notes that West had > added to the > original opinion.... > > What you'll find in most > genealogical groups is a standard to ask the > poster if you can use > their info...if like most of us we want to find our > ancestors we don't > mind...just don't sell the stuff ...<g>... > > Charlotte > > ----Original > Message Follows---- > From: [email protected] > To: > [email protected] > Subject: copyright question on sharing info? > > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:57:54 EDT > > Hi. I just joined this list (I've > been here a few other times though), > and I'm wanting to find out if I > understand the copyright law concerning > online material that is public > domain info. I work in the reference > section of a library and have > read quite a few books on it, but with such > technical language, it's > hard to comprehend. Basically, this is my > understanding...using an > example: > > I have a webpage on certain surnames and I go to a webpage > where I find > info on those surnames I don't already have. It's public > info, like > census, marriage list, cemetery list, wills, etc. I > understand it that I > can copy those facts and paste them onto my > webpage in my own format.... > > Basically, that doesn't come across > exactly right, but from my > understanding, > a person cannot copy the > facts and info from public records, only the > format, and they cannot > prohibit someone from using the info on their > page > > (when it is public info like genealogy documents usually are). Am I > right > > about this, or not? Thanks for the input! > > > > Erin Bradford > > [email protected] > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~kshai (The Genealogy Depository) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > Lorine McGinnis Schulze > [email protected] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ > * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Lorine McGinnis Schulze [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ * The Olive Tree Genealogy http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ * The Canadian Military Heritage Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~canmil/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL...but I am a genealogist....amature I guess is a better fit...<g>...Charlotte ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Paula Wiegand" <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: copyright question on sharing info? Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:06:44 -5.00 > Any notes on my family members by someone else are probably not correct so I > wouldn't want to use them anyway...<g>... I'm glad you are a lawyer and not a genealogist. Paula [email protected] _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com