Honoring Mr. Volkel's copyright, however, would not extend to the material published in 1900 -- only the original material that he supplied in 1980, i.e. the index and preface. Larry Kinyon ----- Original Message ----- From: Karima <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Two Copyright Dates > "Indexing" is a great deal more involved than simply writing a > preface. I know Mr. Volkel and I think he would want you to honor his > copyright. > > Karima > > [email protected] wrote: > > > > I have a book titled: > > Illinois Soldiers and Sailors Home Admission of War Veterans > > > > It shows two different dates and publishers: > > > > First says "Indexed by Lowell M. Volkel" Copyright 1980, McDowell Publications > > > > Second says "Eighth Biennial Report of the Trustees and Officers" > > Springfield, Ill, Phillips Bros State Printers, 1900 > > > > It is obvious by the print that Lowell M. Volkel typed the preface and the > > alphabetical index. The rest of the book appear to be the actual records > > that were printed in 1900. Knowing that anything published before 1923 is > > public domain, is it safe to assume that I can transcribe the actual records > > in this book as long as I do not include the index Mr. Volkel typed for the > > 1980 reprint? > > > > Any and all thoughts appreciated. > > > > Have a great weekend, > > Barbara Freeman > > http://members.aol.com/saxbury > > > > ============================== > > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi > > > ============================== > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi >

"Indexing" is a great deal more involved than simply writing a preface. I know Mr. Volkel and I think he would want you to honor his copyright. Karima [email protected] wrote: > > I have a book titled: > Illinois Soldiers and Sailors Home Admission of War Veterans > > It shows two different dates and publishers: > > First says "Indexed by Lowell M. Volkel" Copyright 1980, McDowell Publications > > Second says "Eighth Biennial Report of the Trustees and Officers" > Springfield, Ill, Phillips Bros State Printers, 1900 > > It is obvious by the print that Lowell M. Volkel typed the preface and the > alphabetical index. The rest of the book appear to be the actual records > that were printed in 1900. Knowing that anything published before 1923 is > public domain, is it safe to assume that I can transcribe the actual records > in this book as long as I do not include the index Mr. Volkel typed for the > 1980 reprint? > > Any and all thoughts appreciated. > > Have a great weekend, > Barbara Freeman > http://members.aol.com/saxbury > > ============================== > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi

In a message dated 10/16/99 9:00:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > New subscriber here. I've been asked for advice about the posting of > obituaries to the GenConnect boards and the concern about copyright. > A specific example is can an obit that's only 10 years old be posted? > > GenConnect says they do not "endorse the posting of copyrighted > material to our pages" but I'm not clear on what is allowable... > > Can anyone give me direction? Hi, Bonnie- Sure you can post obits that are only 10 years old--or 1 day old--as long as the obit is not copyrighted. The vast majority of short obits that contain nothing more than age, death date, location of death, spouse's name, childrens' names, etc. are NOT copyrighted as such factual information cannot be copyrighted. What you need to look out for is information that is biographical in nature, lengthy, and often contains a byline--those types of obits can very well be copyrighted. You can still use those if you obtain permission of the copyright holder. If in doubt--paraphrase carefully. an abstract of the information is safe also. Joan

In a message dated 99-10-16 21:00:59 EDT, you write: << [email protected] Hi all, New subscriber here. I've been asked for advice about the posting of obituaries to the GenConnect boards and the concern about copyright. A specific example is can an obit that's only 10 years old be posted? >> Hi, We had someone post about 40 obits to the GenConnect boards. We planned on pulling them off. But contacted the newspaper and they gave us permission! So I am now going thru each one and putting a statement that it is reprinted with permission. I know this does not answer your copyright question, but just letting you know what we did. Diane Payne

In a message dated 10/16/99 6:45:46 PM, [email protected] writes: << Can you get your hands on a copy of the 1900 book? If so, the question is moot. You can just work from that and forget about the new one. If you are working with the original, the fact that someone else has reprinted it has no bearing on what you are doing. >> Thanks Glenn. It did not even occur to me to try and obtain a copy of the 1900 version since I own a copy of the 1980 reprint. I will contact the IL archives Monday to see if it is available thru inter-library loan. Have a great weekend, Barbara Freeman

In a message dated 10/16/99 6:11:04 PM, [email protected] writes: << Honoring Mr. Volkel's copyright, however, would not extend to the material published in 1900 -- only the original material that he supplied in 1980, i.e. the index and preface. >> Thank you Larry. That is my understanding of the laws also and by posing the question, I was simply attempting to confirm my interpretation of the copyright laws before I transcribed the factual information found in the 1980 version that was copied (not re-typed) from the 1900 version of the book. I am in no way attempting to violate any of Mr. Volkel's rights on his 1980 version which includes the preface and index nor am I interested in transcribing any information found in the preface and index. Have a great weekend, Barbara Freeman

In a message dated 10/16/99 5:54:49 PM, [email protected] writes: << "Indexing" is a great deal more involved than simply writing a preface. I know Mr. Volkel and I think he would want you to honor his copyright. >> Thanks Karima, however I am not wanting to re-type nor transcribe the preface or the index in which Mr. Volkel did with the 1980 copyright. I do realize the work involved in such an undertaking and would not even consider such a thing. What I am wanting to do is transcribe the information that appeared in the 1900 version which Mr. Volkel does not have copyright on but which did appear in his 1980 reprint along with his additions to the information which are clearly discernable from the 1900 version. So my original question stands at: Can I transcribe the 1900 version of the book without violating the 1980 additions to and reprints of the records? I cite the following copyright laws which I believe apply in this case and simply am looking for confirmation that these do apply to the information I wish to transcribe: Anything published before 1923 is public domain (which means that anyone can reprint these items without approval or compensation to the original author - in this case the 1900 version that was reprinted in 1980 by Mr. Volkel) Facts cannot be copyrighted (which means that since the items I wish to transcribe are a list of names and personal information given upon admittance to the Soldiers and Sailors Home they are pure facts as given by the individual and therefore are not subject to copyright) Thank you, Barbara Freeman

I have a book titled: Illinois Soldiers and Sailors Home Admission of War Veterans It shows two different dates and publishers: First says "Indexed by Lowell M. Volkel" Copyright 1980, McDowell Publications Second says "Eighth Biennial Report of the Trustees and Officers" Springfield, Ill, Phillips Bros State Printers, 1900 It is obvious by the print that Lowell M. Volkel typed the preface and the alphabetical index. The rest of the book appear to be the actual records that were printed in 1900. Knowing that anything published before 1923 is public domain, is it safe to assume that I can transcribe the actual records in this book as long as I do not include the index Mr. Volkel typed for the 1980 reprint? Any and all thoughts appreciated. Have a great weekend, Barbara Freeman http://members.aol.com/saxbury

---------- > From: GINGER AND ROBERT WESTON <[email protected]> > To: Heide Sciacca <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT-D Digest V99 #57 > Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 7:56 PM > > What about this family treemaker program that asks people to submit files > everytime it reaches 100 people. > I don't believe that people are aware that this company;whom I might add is > now owned by Mattel;are selling these peoples private files for $19.91 a > CD. > Take for instance,I have been doing research for the past year on a > particular family and have found out that someone in the family has donated > their file to the FamilyTreemaker. I don't mind if they did,just that do > they realize that the company is selling their information and making a > bundle off of it? > Did some research on the Broderbrund Software company and found this out. > They were taken over by The Learning Company;then they were taken over by > Mattel. > Checked out their stock positioning and they aren't doing that bad,because > now more people are doing this geneology than ever before.Especially since > the LDS has opened it's site. > What do you think? > Ginger > > ---------- > > From: Heide Sciacca <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT-D Digest V99 #57 > > Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 4:02 PM > > > > Carol, > > That is so true! I also wanted to mention that all previous messages with > the > > information can probably be found in the archives, so it can be found by > > anyone. Like you said, once it's "out there", it's virtually impossible > to take > > it back. My question is, if someone is using the information previously > shared > > by others, how can it be proved that copyright is being violated if the > > information wasn't being protected when it was first disseminated? I > personally > > stay on the safe side and try to have sources and some type of > documention for > > my information. > > Heide > > Carol C-H wrote: > > > > > At 06:19 AM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > > > >major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS > or > > > >private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > > > >wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > > > >current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not > be > > > >aware they are using someone else's research). > > > > > > > >Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled > it. > > > Have had that situation; it has become a very common occurrence. They > are > > > out of luck. They shared the information, and it probably has been > shared > > > many times since - it may already be on lists, boards, CDs, online > Gedcoms, > > > and who knows what else. If they do not want the info to become > public, > > > they'd best not share the info. With anyone. > > > > > > Carol C-H <[email protected]> http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/ > > > > > > ============================== > > > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > > > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > > > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi > > > > > > ============================== > > FREE UNLIMITED Web space at RootsWeb! > > Any subject: genealogy, computers, pets! Get your Freepages account > today: > > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi

Thanks, of corse, but the do deserve respect. Fine line between sharing and protecting interpretation On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, The Perrys wrote: > Hi Patricia, > > I don't believe that they can prevent this from happening. The data is not > copywritable, just their presentation of the data. So if their email > messages, etc contain dates and places, they do not own any rights to this > information. > > Thanks! > Peggy Perry > > President, Iowa County Genealogical Society > Visit us at: http://www.friendsnfamily.net/wiiowagensoc/index.html > Moderator for The Obituary Daily Times > For Obituaries from around the world - visit us at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~obituary > County Coordinator for the Wisconsin GenWeb Program - Iowa County > Visit us at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wiiowa > Owner of the Iowa County Wisconsin Mailing list > to subscribe <[email protected]> message: subscribe > Co-Owner of the GenMsc mailing list > to subscribe: <[email protected]> message: subscribe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Patricia Tidmarsh <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 1:19 PM > Subject: Unpublished research > > > > Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > > major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or > > private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > > wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > > current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be > > aware they are using someone else's research). > > > > Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. > > > > Thanks > > > > Patricia > > > > > ============================== > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi >

Hi Patricia, I don't believe that they can prevent this from happening. The data is not copywritable, just their presentation of the data. So if their email messages, etc contain dates and places, they do not own any rights to this information. Thanks! Peggy Perry President, Iowa County Genealogical Society Visit us at: http://www.friendsnfamily.net/wiiowagensoc/index.html Moderator for The Obituary Daily Times For Obituaries from around the world - visit us at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~obituary County Coordinator for the Wisconsin GenWeb Program - Iowa County Visit us at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wiiowa Owner of the Iowa County Wisconsin Mailing list to subscribe <[email protected]> message: subscribe Co-Owner of the GenMsc mailing list to subscribe: <[email protected]> message: subscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Tidmarsh <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: Unpublished research > Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or > private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be > aware they are using someone else's research). > > Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. > > Thanks > > Patricia >

Heide, As I understand it, if what is posted is data (facts) from research, the researcher did not create and does not own the facts, so can not copyright them, and anyone can insert the facts into their database without crediting the source, if they choose to do so. OTOH, direct quotes from material should be credited, and there may be legal implications if they are not. Even notes do not have to be credited if they are re-worded, as I understand it, though if they are not, how would a person know where to look if they wanted more info later? Carol At 04:02 PM 10/13/99 -0500, Heide Sciacca wrote: >Carol, >That is so true! I also wanted to mention that all previous messages with the >information can probably be found in the archives, so it can be found by >anyone. Like you said, once it's "out there", it's virtually impossible to >take >it back. My question is, if someone is using the information previously shared >by others, how can it be proved that copyright is being violated if the >information wasn't being protected when it was first disseminated? I >personally >stay on the safe side and try to have sources and some type of documention for >my information. >Heide >Carol C-H wrote: > > > At 06:19 AM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > > >major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or > > >private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > > >wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > > >current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be > > >aware they are using someone else's research). > > > > > >Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. > > Have had that situation; it has become a very common occurrence. They are > > out of luck. They shared the information, and it probably has been shared > > many times since - it may already be on lists, boards, CDs, online Gedcoms, > > and who knows what else. If they do not want the info to become public, > > they'd best not share the info. With anyone. > > > > Carol C-H <[email protected]> http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/ > > > > ============================== > > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi Carol C-H <[email protected]> http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/

Carol, That is so true! I also wanted to mention that all previous messages with the information can probably be found in the archives, so it can be found by anyone. Like you said, once it's "out there", it's virtually impossible to take it back. My question is, if someone is using the information previously shared by others, how can it be proved that copyright is being violated if the information wasn't being protected when it was first disseminated? I personally stay on the safe side and try to have sources and some type of documention for my information. Heide Carol C-H wrote: > At 06:19 AM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > >major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or > >private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > >wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > >current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be > >aware they are using someone else's research). > > > >Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. > Have had that situation; it has become a very common occurrence. They are > out of luck. They shared the information, and it probably has been shared > many times since - it may already be on lists, boards, CDs, online Gedcoms, > and who knows what else. If they do not want the info to become public, > they'd best not share the info. With anyone. > > Carol C-H <[email protected]> http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/ > > ============================== > RootsWeb.com now offers UNLIMITED Web space for FREE! > Sign up today for RootsWeb's Freepages program: > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi

Out of respect for the researchers, I would be inclined to respect the potential authors' wishes about posting information in any forum without their express permission. However, I have found at times it is necessary to include a small portion of another researcher's work that has been incorporated into one's own research when trying to make a possible "connection" with someone doing work on the same surname(s). The way I interpret this is if it is a small amount of information and the source of the information is cited, no copyright infringement has occurred. I'm not sure who dictates what is "small". Otherwise, what is the use of these forums in the first place? In my opinion, any good genealogist/researcher is not going to depend solely upon these email "messages" and other electronic data being transferred over the internet to document their family lineage. I look at them more as "possible clues and/or leads", but certainly not definite proof of anything. It could also be beneficial for the author. I have purchased books that I may never have known existed until I saw it cited in a message, etc. These are just my random thoughts on this subject. Would love to hear other opinions! Heide Patricia Tidmarsh wrote: > Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have > major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or > private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not > wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the > current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be > aware they are using someone else's research). > > Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. > > Thanks > > Patricia > > ============================== > Caught an error in the Social Security Death Index? > Use RootsWeb's POST-EMS to post a note about it! > http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

At 06:19 AM 10/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have >major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or >private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not >wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the >current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be >aware they are using someone else's research). > >Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. Have had that situation; it has become a very common occurrence. They are out of luck. They shared the information, and it probably has been shared many times since - it may already be on lists, boards, CDs, online Gedcoms, and who knows what else. If they do not want the info to become public, they'd best not share the info. With anyone. Carol C-H <[email protected]> http://www2.netdoor.com/~cch/

Patricia, Remember that anything sent via an email is copyrighted and requires permission before forwarding or using. I have had luck with just reminding my lists of this fact. All of a sudden messages say 'This is being sent with permission' or words to that effect. Dave

Four of my surnames, for which I administer lists, plus variants, have major researchers who have in the past shared their information on BBS or private mailing lists or email Some are planning to publish and do not wish the information which they have formerly shared to be sent to the current Rootsweb lists by third, or even fourth parties (who may not be aware they are using someone else's research). Has anyone else had this situation come up and how have they handled it. Thanks Patricia

Download a copy of Copyright Basics, Circular 1 from the net. There are no number of words you can copy without asking permission. I think the time is 75 years now, but you need to read the circular. It's easy to understand. http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright Cat In a message dated 9/7/99 2:21:44 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << have just finished reading a book about copyright and I still haven't gotten the questions answered: How long do newspapers retain copyrights on news articles. Are you allowed to copy up to 300 words or the whole article as long as you give impecible resources references? Anybody out there in cyber land konw the answer to this one? >>

Hi, : one of my Surname List subscribers has a booklet written in 1939. : "The Lamoureux Record, a Study of the Lamoureux Family in America" : # 2, April 1939, edited by Harold Dane L'amoureux. We would like to : post it to our Biographies Cluster!? : Now I checked and learned more ab. copyright laws. The only thing I : could find at the U.S. copyright office was this: : > : > Heading: L'Amoureux, Harold Dane : > Notes: nuc88-102503: Lamoureux, A.J. Andre Lamourux, the : > Huguenot emigrant ... 1980? (hdg. on N rept.: : > L'Amoureux, : > Harold Dane; usage: Harold Dane L'Amoureux) : > Control No.: n 88660549 : > : > Tagged display | Previous Record | Next Record | Brief Record Display | : > New Search : > : > This display was generated by the CNIDR Web-Z39.50 gateway, version : > 1.08, with Library of Congress Modifications. : : I think this is another booklet, but not sure? I printed some of the : codes out and still can't make sense out of this! Not sure if we should : just chalk the booklet up...it could be helpful to a lot of our : Researchers and we can't find it in print! : : Thanks for any advice. : Scarlett Ziemba

At 08:04 PM 9/6/99 EDT, you wrote: >I have just finished reading a book about copyright and I still haven't >gotten the questions answered: How long do newspapers retain copyrights on >news articles. Are you allowed to copy up to 300 words or the whole article >as long as you give impecible resources references? Anybody out there in >cyber land konw the answer to this one? > >Dawn E. >[email protected] Copyrights for newspapers are the same length as anything else published. There have been a number of copyright law changes over the years, so there is no absolute answer for every situation, but basically, if the newspaper had a copyright notice on it, anything after abot 1922 is still covered. After 1978, I believe, the requirement for a copyright notice was removed.... everything published after that date is covered by copyright. Really there is no blanket definition as to what is allowed to be copied. Whenever you see something like 300 words or 1 page or some such, that is some individual's or organiztion's rule of thumb. All the law has is an allownce of "fair use." The limits of fair use are not well defined, intentionally left so by Congress. Fair use is very applicable to scholarship and research, both of which are very important attributes of genealogy. ( I have a web site on U.S. Copyright and Genealogy. My page on fair use is at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/html/copyright9.htm ) Mike Goad Mike Goad (check out our on-line bookstore at http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks , including genealogy)