Just a thought here... In all that has been said, and I may have missed this, but no one seems to have mentioned the simple thing ... DID she SIGN her name on the application for a copyright? If not, how is her name included in the copyright? All books I have copyrighted, required my signature on the application to enable me to get the copyright ...even forgot to sign one, one time, and it was returned to me for my signature.

Regarding the case of my family member publishing my work on CD's. He says that he is going to copyright the work in his own name and also in mine. (Keep in mind that I expressly told him NOT to publish MY work.) Should I let him go ahead and copyright his CD's in my name. Or should I tell him NOT to copyright in my name? Can he even do that? Shouldn't I do that myself? If he copyrights the ged-com information that I gave him before me, how does that affect my own copyright when I publish my book? Laura [email protected]

Please forgive my newbie-ness, but what does it take for me to copyright my work. Do I have to fill out a form and send it into some government agency? Or do I just "say" that it's copyrighted? Also, are photographs copyrightable? Again, please forgive me if the list has already covered this territory--I'm new. I understand that bare facts are not coyrightable, but the organization of such facts may be. In otherwords, a simple ged-com file, with no sources or documentation, would not be copyrighable. Is this correct? Laura

MERELY to publish a book? Holy mackerel. Richard > -----Original Message----- > From: Shmuel and Shoshana Arnold [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 1:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: The Problem of Sharing Information > > > Hi all, > > I thought I would comment on this issue. I think we need > to ask ourselves what our goals are in researching our genealogies. > Is it because you want to "perserve the past" and "know where you > have come > from", > is it something you enjoy, or merely to publish a book? > > If it is just to publish a book, by all means, don't share your info with > anyone. But if it is to learn your family history, I think it is important > to share with the family. Yes, it is upsetting when another family member > steals your work without crediting your long hard hours of research. > However, keep your goals in mind. "You" are doing the research because > it is something "you" enjoy and "you" feel worthwhile. You can't make > people help. And unfortunately you can't control what people do with > the info when they receive it. If you are afraid of the privacy issue, > don't provide information on living people. If they publish > your info... just ignore their publication. Publish your own > book. > > Most importantly though, when you give out your information to others > make it clear to them your wishes (I know some of you had and they were > ignored). > > Remember though..facts aren't copyrightable. In good faith, they should > credit > your research, and you should ask them to. > > So, remember your goals and don't get caught up in the > "publishing", but in > the "learning" and the "sharing" which is what genealogy is all about. > > Susan > > > > > ============================== > Discover your ancestors and trace your family tree today at Ancestry.com. > You are invited to search our massive collection containing over > 500 million > records, in over 1800 databases. Visit > http://ads04.focalink.com/SmartBanner/page?16226.4 > >

Hi all, I thought I would comment on this issue. I think we need to ask ourselves what our goals are in researching our genealogies. Is it because you want to "perserve the past" and "know where you have come from", is it something you enjoy, or merely to publish a book? If it is just to publish a book, by all means, don't share your info with anyone. But if it is to learn your family history, I think it is important to share with the family. Yes, it is upsetting when another family member steals your work without crediting your long hard hours of research. However, keep your goals in mind. "You" are doing the research because it is something "you" enjoy and "you" feel worthwhile. You can't make people help. And unfortunately you can't control what people do with the info when they receive it. If you are afraid of the privacy issue, don't provide information on living people. If they publish your info... just ignore their publication. Publish your own book. Most importantly though, when you give out your information to others make it clear to them your wishes (I know some of you had and they were ignored). Remember though..facts aren't copyrightable. In good faith, they should credit your research, and you should ask them to. So, remember your goals and don't get caught up in the "publishing", but in the "learning" and the "sharing" which is what genealogy is all about. Susan

Greetings once again. I want to thank everyone on both the GENAUTHOR and COPYRIGHT lists for all of your wonderful comments and advice. What a response I got from my posting. And, there sure was a wide variety of opinions, from "You should sue!", to "Forgive and forget!". So many people asked me to keep them updated, so I thought that I'd let everyone know how I have decided to handle the problem of my "close relative" publishing MY work. First of all, there was a confrontation. One last time, I expressed my feelings about him publishing the information that I had given him. I also told him that I was hurt that he was going to do this when it meant so much to me. One thing led to another, and it ended with him insulting my genealogical abilities. After an evening of soul searching, and contemplating the advise that I'd received from the list, I have come to this conclusion. There is nothing I can do to prevent him from creating his CD's. Even if I had a legal argument, which is questionable, I cannot take that route. He is too closely related, and like someone said before, I don't want to end up the "Bad Guy" in the family. I guess it's just not worth it to me to make him my enemy. And, I don't want this burden on my heart. But, since I only gave him a ged-com (and a few photos), with no notes and sources, stories, etc., I don't believe that it will take away that much from the book that I wish to produce. The family will still be interested in what I have to offer, which will be much more interesting and informative. Also, he does not have the experience that I have, and therefore may not be able to distribute his work to a wide audience. He has told me now that he will not try to distribute it on the net. This is comforting, but I think he's a little naive. Even if he only gives out 10 copies, the chances are that someone will eventually put it on the net. When and if that time comes, I will have to write to various cousins who passed along their information to me. I don't want them to think that I would publish their work without their permission. I told him that I DO want my name as being the source of the research, but not as co-producer of the CD's. I thought hard on this. Although I am embarrassed to have my name on a work with no sources and documentation, I also don't want HIM to get all of the credit for doing it. Also, if someone runs across the CD's, maybe they will contact me. I will just have to explain the situation to people as I go along. I am also hoping that after he is done with his production, this will be the end of his interest. As I reflect on all of this, I still believe that as genealogists, we HAVE to share at least SOME of our work with others. Isn't that what genealogy is all about--sharing and learning about our relatives? We cannot be selfish or scared to share, or we undermine our own research. We cannot expect to collect information from others without giving them what they are looking for as well. I have always shared bits and pieces of my work with others who have asked. I will continue to do this. I cannot let this one bad apple destroy the enjoyment I get from sharing much sought after information with others. I wouldn't have all of the data that I have now, if it weren't for so many generous researchers out there. However, I won't make the mistake of giving my entire pedigree away again, as I did in this situation. I also think that the GOOD genealogists should pass along their expertise to the "newbies". We need to teach and expect others to always cite sources, and give credit where credit is due. I at least have the satisfaction of knowing that when I am done with my book, my relative will see that maybe he didn't do such a great job on his thrown-together version of our history. People will see his work for what it is. I will have a little retribution in the end. Thank you again to all who wrote to me with their thoughts. The uplifting, encouraging words really did give me comfort. I feel good about the decision I have made in this. Laura [email protected]

Hi, I just signed onto this list, and spent some time reading the threaded archives to get a sense of this group. I am dealing with a situation that's growing uglier by the day, and frankly, I am looking for help in my effort to handle this successfully. I started a family association about 5 years ago. I am the official genealogist for the group and the editor of the newsletter. I also maintain the lists, correspond with hundreds of cousins, and plan our annual meetings. In addition, I have traveled all over the country in search of this family and invested thousands of dollars in researching them. Hundreds of people have asked me for information about their ancestors, and in most cases I have been able to send them detailed charts of their lineages with all my notes, sources, etc. The ONLY thing I have asked is that they not post my work on the internet. Nearly all of these cousins have complied with my request. But there is within the organization a small group of people who feel that I have no right to make such a request. That group, like children "testing the limits," persist in arguing that they are entitled to do anything they wish with the information I've given them, either directly or in articles published in our newsletter. Now one of them has created a website in which she has posted very detailed information I gave her directly or published in our newsletters about her husband's ancestors. She has taken pages of information that I've compiled and posted it verbatim to a web site owned by that really big genealogy software company. We're not talking copyright infringement here, we're talking plagarism, pure and simple. Nowhere on her site did she cite the name of our association or our newsletter, but showed the sources I've cited as if she'd seen them. I suppose that I can force the issue and make her take some of that stuff down, but here's my real question: is there anyone else on this list who is dealing with the personal politics of a situation like this? I know that there is beginning to be a serious division between those who do professional-quality research and those whose research is confined to the web. Is there any group or list addressing these questions? If so, can someone please tell me how to find them? I am in danger of becoming the "villain" in this piece, and of losing not only control and ownership of my work, but also the friendship of many members of my group. In fact, I'm afraid that if I push this the whole group will dissolve. My husband (he who pays the costs of my research) says I should just walk away -- turn off the e-mail, give them nothing, stop sharing what I've found. I don't want to do that, but I am getting closer to that all the time. I apologize for the length of this note. I hope list members here will be willing to share their ideas for dealing successfully with this problem. Thanks! Libbie

I rarely post on any of the rootsweb lists that I subscribe to, but a couple of posts on this list the last few days has caused me to respond. I drew the line at sharing my information two years ago when a cousin asked for all of my l7 years of genealogy because she "wanted to publish a book." I was furious. I had spent my hard-earned money and my time on researching my family tree while she did nothing to help and then she had the nerve to ask for all of my research. Since then, I have shared none of my information and that's a shame. Face it folks, there are givers and takers or if you would, those who believe in thorough research in genealogy and those who just sit on their behinds and do nothing and then expect a hand-out. I am sick and tired of the latter group. From now on, my genealogy is for myself and my children. Dale Johnson

My opinion follows; I am not a lawyer. Work is automatically copyrighted from the moment it is in "fixed form." However, most of what you have worked so hard to gather is not copyrightable. Facts are not copyrightable. This is from Copyright Basics, Circular 1 that you can download on the net. I'm sorry this was done to you, but it is done all the time by people who think they are "special" and don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else. I share very little anymore with anyone that I am not willing to see on the net under someone else's name. I've made it a practice never to share anything about living individuals--EVER--or anything that has first been shared with me by another genealogist. Yvonne In a message dated 11/27/99 4:20:36 PM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << But what should I do about him distributing MY work? And should I tell him to take my name off of the copyright? Or should I tell him that it is already copyrighted? This is all so confusing to me. Also, so many cousins, and fellow researchers passed along information to me. What if they see it back on the net? They might be upset with me. Suing him is not an option. He is too close of a relative, and I don't have the finances to do it anyway. I feel like I'm being robbed. All of my hard work is being stolen from me. >>

I really need some advise! I have been doing research on my family for over 15 years. I have accumulated lots of wonderful information, and I have plans to publish my work in the future. As you all know, genealogy is becoming the "IN" thing to be doing now, especially on the net. Here is my problem. A close family member, who has never been interested in our family history before, is about to take MY work and publish it on his own. I shared the information freely, but reluctantly, (a simple ged-com file, and some photos only), because he said that I was being stingy by not sharing. I made it clear, and have been making it clear for years, that I am going to publish a book. In the beginning, he led me to believe that he was only wanting the information for his own children, and that he didn't want to wait for me to publish it. He also didn't approve of the way I wanted to produce it--in book form, not on CD. (He's an arrogant control freak!) He has now chosen to burn the information on CD's. He says that he is going to put my name on it as co-publisher. And he is going to give it out to anyone that wants a copy. (I'm afraid that he is going to try and sell it.) He also says that he has copyrighted it in both his name and mine. Although the data is mine, I do not want MY name on a production that I had nothing to do with. He has no genealogical experience, (although he thinks he's an expert) and the work will be lacking in so many ways--no stories, history, documentation and sources. I feel that he is only doing this for his own glory and for the money he thinks he can make by selling it on the net. I know that he will gladly take my name off of the CD's. That would only give him more credit for the work. But what should I do about him distributing MY work? And should I tell him to take my name off of the copyright? Or should I tell him that it is already copyrighted? This is all so confusing to me. Also, so many cousins, and fellow researchers passed along information to me. What if they see it back on the net? They might be upset with me. Suing him is not an option. He is too close of a relative, and I don't have the finances to do it anyway. I feel like I'm being robbed. All of my hard work is being stolen from me. Thank you for letting me "vent". I'd appreciate any comments and suggestions. Laura [email protected]

I AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION ON THE FOLLOWING. THANK YOU ALMA SAFFELL (F) (1909 Clark Co., IA to ?)(Housework-White) Living at 2822 4th St., Des Moines, Polk, IA Father Unknown CHARLES WALTER SAFFELL (M)(12/13/1928 Des Moines, Polk, IA to 01/01/1999 Marion, IA) -Bonnie Jean DUGDALE (F)(03/26/1932 San Diego, CA to 06/15/1995 Wheeling, IL) 1. CHARLES WALTER SAFFELL JR. (M)(07/18/1950 Des Moines, IA to LIVING C'Ville, Kane, IL) -Kathleen L. DAVIS (F)(1952 to ?) MARRIED 12/06/1968 Chicago, Cook Co., IL 1. PATRICK JAY SAFFELL (M)(02/09/69 Park Ridge, IL) 2. SCOTT WILLIAM SAFFELL (M) (02/19/71 Park Ridge IL) -Linda BRASSFIELD 1. AMANDA SHANNAN SAFFELL (F)(10/29/75 Chicago, Cook, IL) (LIVING in Trevor WI) Robert Allen PLANKA (married on 12/11/95) 1. Brandie Jean PLANKA (F)(05/07/94 IL) 2. Katelyn Diane PLANKA (F)(06/07/96 IL) -Leslie LOCASCIO (Married on 04/16/99 Las Vegas, NV) 2. CHILD 2 SAFFELL (F)(07/18/1950) Died at Birth -ANNA SAFFELL (F)(living at 109 Center, Melcher, IA 50163) ANY INFORMATION ON PATRICK JAY (OR P.J.) SAFFELL OR SCOTT WILLIAM SAFFELL WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED SINCE I HAVE NOT SEEN THEM SINCE MY DIVORCE IN 1973. THANK YOU, CHARLES W. SAFFELL JR. AT [email protected]

Don't get wrong idea! Read this one instead: http://www.desnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,135007287,00.html? the fine line: "illegally available". That is where the Tanners ran afoul. Once the LDS Church get it done - they will to to those other places using their country's copyright laws to take them off line. Rootsweb observe the very same laws the LDS is following. Copyrighted materials are not accepted on Rootsweb without permission of the owners. The LDS Church's Family History Department has a large team of volunteers checking the websites submitted to them for linking to their Familysearch.org and there are very good number of Rootsweb sites already linked from Familysearch.org site and there are increasing number of Rootsweb sites have links to Familysearch.org. Again, the buzzword is "illegally obtained". If it was government's materials obtained illegally - chances are higher for confiscation of computers and whatnot. Not LDS - they aren't interested in confiscating computers. In fact it is a federal offense to use copyrighted materials without permission. This bring the FBI into the act. I know because my former employer had the FBI after one copyright infringment offender and shut the offender down before the case ever got to the federal court. W. David Samuelsen Christine Charity wrote: > > I thought you guys might find this interesting. > > Federal judge orders couple to remove Web links to Mormon text > http://www.freedomforum.org/speech/1999/11/11utmormonsuit.asp > > Christine's Genealogy Website > http://ccharity.com > The Freedmen's Bureau Online > http://freedmensbureau.com > Censuslinks on the Internet > http://censuslinks.com > > ============================== > Discover your ancestors and trace your family tree today at Ancestry.com. > You are invited to search our massive collection containing over 500 million > records, in over 1800 databases. Visit > http://ads04.focalink.com/SmartBanner/page?16226.4

Very interesting! I believe they did violate copyright laws. Scarlett

I thought you guys might find this interesting. Federal judge orders couple to remove Web links to Mormon text http://www.freedomforum.org/speech/1999/11/11utmormonsuit.asp Christine's Genealogy Website http://ccharity.com The Freedmen's Bureau Online http://freedmensbureau.com Censuslinks on the Internet http://censuslinks.com

At 05:43 AM 11/18/99 -0800, taramark wrote: >Hello, > >I have some postcards from Belgiu, 1907. I was warned >to check the copyright before posting them to a web site. > >What is the law on this, please? For a website in the U.S., the U.S. copyright laws should apply, even for items first published in other countries. In the U.S., copyrights of other countries are protected by U.S. copyright law and vice verse, as long as the countries are signatories of the treaty developed at the Universal Copyright Convention. The text of that treaty may be found in the background explanation for 17 USC Sec. 104, Subject matter of copyright: National origin. You can get to that information by on my "Linked Index to the U.S. Copyright Code" on my copyright site. The index is at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~mikegoad/html/code.htm Then click on the link for Sec. 104... Mike Goad (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and the opinions expressed here are not legal advice.)

Hello, I have some postcards from Belgiu, 1907. I was warned to check the copyright before posting them to a web site. What is the law on this, please? Thank you, Corinne Gernaey [email protected]

Here are some good articles about copyright, ethics, and accuracy. Click on the blue URL under the title. Restoring Ethics to Genealogy, by Barbara Brown http://www.iigs.org/newsletter/9904news/ethics.htm.en This is from the August Co, VA, GenWeb-- INTERNET GENEALOGY - WHAT'S GOOD! WHAT'S NOT! . . . AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? by Bettie Cummings Cook, CG [Published in The Packet, Tri-State Genealogical Society, Evansville, IN, vol.XXII, no. 2(Dec. 1998)] http://www.rootsweb.com/~vaaugust/cook.htm These two are from the Oldham Co, KY, GenWeb -- Who Owns Genealogy? by Gary B Hoffman http://rootsweb.net/~kyoldham/gcopyright.html Database Copyrights, by Edmund B Burke http://rootsweb.net/~kyoldham/copyright.html

Hi all, I would like to put historical pictures in my book such as the ship my ancestors came from, maps, etc. Where can I find pictures that I can use without infringing on copyright? Any ideas on this? Susan mailto:[email protected]

British copyright for a book written then is is for fifty years after the death of the author. Now best guess is that the author is well and truly dead (and most books written then usually are out of copyright). So find the author's date of death and if it is out of copyright you should provide these details to the authority that houses the book. That aside if the book is out-of-print (and one would guess that is!), then you are entitled to one copy of the book for your personal use. So there are two avenues to getting action. If it is still in copyright then you need to find to whom the copyright has been ceded, either by specific action of the author, or by the estate of the author. Good luck there. Try the publishers. Regards Andrew On 8 Nov 99, at 21:16, Valerie Rosalind Bailey <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, > I have been trying to locate a book called The Langstaff's of Teesdale & Weardale: History of a Yeoman Family. author George Blundell LONGSTAFF. > It is a bibliography of the Longstaff/Langstaff name with pedigrees etc. > I managed to locate it at the British Library, where they said they could photocopy it for me, but I have to get copyright permission in writing, the book was published in 1906. They gave me an addres to wrtie to for assistance, but they never replied, so I am stuck as to how and where to get copyright permission to copy the pages of this book. > Can anyone please help with this query. > Regards > Val Bailey > [email protected] > > > ============================== > Free Web space. ANY amount. ANY subject. > RootsWeb's Freepages put you in touch with millions. > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi >

Hi Richard, I'm doing the research for a cousin who ask the question. She's prepared to do the work herself. And yes there is a family feud going on. Her personal information was published without her permission. Any suggestions I can give her? donna -----Original Message----- From: Richard <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Living folks info >Donna, > >You asked: "Is there any way to stop someone from publishing >information about living people on their web site?" > > >Here are some thoughts: > >If _you_ are the "living person" (and you are not a public figure) >or if you are the legal representative of the person (or otherwise >legally responsible for the person, such as being the parent of a >minor), I'd say "yes." In such a situation, I'd start with a polite >(but firm) message to the owner/webmaster of the website. > > >Just my two cents worth... > > >Richard ([email protected]) > >