Hi Joe, Yes, you're right under those specific circumstances it would be fair use and not an infringement. I have found the easiest method is just to get the authors permisson, and I have never been refused, and then there is no question as to infringement. Bob, Think I know what you are getting at, but don't agree with your comment that reposting outside of RW would be a CLEAR infringement of copyright..... I am completely within my rights to post the pertinent parts of ANY email to ANY list ANYPLACE, IF I am doing so as part of critical [in the scholarly sense] analysis. Which is what I am doing here... Robert W Fay wrote: > > Hi Jean, > > So a > posting on one list may be reproduced on another list within Rootsweb. This > is not a technical infringement of copyright. If it were reproduced on a > mail list, web site or anywhere else outside of rootsweb, it would be a > clear infringemnet of copyright. Nothing technical about it. > > However, as a matter of etiquete, it is good practice to ask the authors > permission for reposting, even within rootsweb. And proper credit should be > given the original author on a repost or it is plagarizism. > > > Bob Fay -- joe ==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== Support RootsWeb - http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html ============================== Search over 900 million names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,1768268^421,00.html People sending e-mail are urged to spell out whether they give permission for the content to be forwarded to others. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Bob, Think I know what you are getting at, but don't agree with your comment that reposting outside of RW would be a CLEAR infringement of copyright..... I am completely within my rights to post the pertinent parts of ANY email to ANY list ANYPLACE, IF I am doing so as part of critical [in the scholarly sense] analysis. Which is what I am doing here... Robert W Fay wrote: > > Hi Jean, > > So a > posting on one list may be reproduced on another list within Rootsweb. This > is not a technical infringement of copyright. If it were reproduced on a > mail list, web site or anywhere else outside of rootsweb, it would be a > clear infringemnet of copyright. Nothing technical about it. > > However, as a matter of etiquete, it is good practice to ask the authors > permission for reposting, even within rootsweb. And proper credit should be > given the original author on a repost or it is plagarizism. > > > Bob Fay -- joe

Copyright does apply to e-mail. However, most genealogical postings that copy e-mail would likely NOT be infringement as they would be considered "fair use." According to "THE COPYRIGHT HANDBOOK" by Stephen Fishman, an attorney: ... - for example, it's undoubtedly a fair use to quote portions of an email message for a scholarly, journalistic or educational purpose. Please note that this applies to US copyright. Other nation's copyright laws will differ. Mike Goad http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks/genealogy/copyright/copyright.htm At 05:13 PM 3/6/01 -0500, [email protected] wrote: >Crossposting a genealogical message related to >other genealogical mailing lists is not considered >as "a technical infringement of copyright", is it? >A separate issue, correct? I need to know because >I own some mailing lists. Your assistance would be >appreciated.

Hi Jean, Although I am a bit unclear as to precisely your question, if you read the Acceptable Use Policy at Rootsweb, you will learn that the author gives rootsweb the right to use the posting anywhere within its system. So a posting on one list may be reproduced on another list within Rootsweb. This is not a technical infringement of copyright. If it were reproduced on a mail list, web site or anywhere else outside of rootsweb, it would be a clear infringemnet of copyright. Nothing technical about it. However, as a matter of etiquete, it is good practice to ask the authors permission for reposting, even within rootsweb. And proper credit should be given the original author on a repost or it is plagarizism. I have yet to request permission to repost and been refused by an author. Bob Fay ----Original Message Follows---- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Crossposting & copyright Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:13:54 -0500 Crossposting a genealogical message related to other genealogical mailing lists is not considered as "a technical infringement of copyright", is it? A separate issue, correct? I need to know because I own some mailing lists. Your assistance would be appreciated. Thanks, Regads, Jean ==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== Threaded archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/COPYRIGHT-L/ ============================== The easiest way to stay in touch with your family and friends! http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST1 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Crossposting a genealogical message related to other genealogical mailing lists is not considered as "a technical infringement of copyright", is it? A separate issue, correct? I need to know because I own some mailing lists. Your assistance would be appreciated. Thanks, Regads, Jean

In Australia, forwarding e-mail is now illegal. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,1768268%5E421,00.html Excerpt: "It's quite possible that the forwarding of an e-mail could be a technical infringement of copyright," Mr Williams' legal adviser told The Sunday Telegraph. "E-mailing something is a `communication' under the Digital Agenda Act and so is putting something up on a website." The new measures cover material which already has copyright protection -- such as excerpts from books or song lyrics -- as well as personal messages. This means a simple message about office gossip, holiday plans or a new romance carries personal copyright and the recipient has no right to forward it without permission. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Hi very one I am wondering if any one can tell me the best way to find out who holds copyright on a newspaper that is dead? Do I really need to worry about the copyright? Jason mendenhall

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to provide such in-depth commentary. Apparently my hunches were on the money. Thanks, Scott! Your time and effort is appreciated. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott R. Anderson <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 5:15 AM Subject: Re: maps and copyright

Actually, it is a "free standing" map, not a portion of a publication. I'm afraid I don't understand the term "seems valid". All I can add is that a copyright dated 1987 does indeed "seem" pretty doggoned valid to me.<g> I haven't doubted the authenticity of the copyright, but I doubt the right to copy and display a portion of that work on a website. Thanks, Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Cliff Lamere <mailto:[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:17 PM Subject: Re: maps and copyright > Michael, > > Make sure that the copyright seems valid. Is it drawn by the person who claims the copyright, or could it be a public domain map which someone just has in their 1987 book? People claim copyrights on their books, but sometimes less than 10% of it is actually copyrighted. > > Cliff

On Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:11 AM, Michael Allison <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi. > I need some help please. I moderate a genealogy e-mail list for a NC county. > Recently we've been discussing the Walton War, the 1810 conflict that > occurred between Georgia and North Carolina within the NC county discussed > on the list. A member has located a map that shows historical features > relative to our discussion and today offered to copy and post the map on our > members' only website. The map bears a copyright date of 1987. > > I've asked to hold off until getting some opinions. To my thinking, we > cannot copy and post that map on the website. Or am I utterly wrong? Might > that act fall under fair use? Thanks if anyone can help with this matter. Fair use refers, generally speaking, to the use of relatively small portions of someone else's work within one's own work or effort. It is described as follows by Terry Carroll in his Copyright FAQ: vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Perhaps more than any other area of copyright, fair use is a highly fact-specific determination. Copyright Office document FL102 puts it this way: "The distinction between 'fair use' and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission." The document then quotes from the 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law., providing the following examples of activities that courts have held to be fair use: - Quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; - Quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; - Use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; - Summary of an address or article with brief quotations, in a news report; - Reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; - Reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; - Reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; - Incidental and fortuitous reproduction in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported. .... There are four factors used to decide whether a particular use of a copyrighted work is a fair use: (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. 17 U.S.C. 107. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Let's assume that the map is not actually public domain, but incorporates creative effort by the authors that can't be separated out, e.g. where this or that battle took place. Like most illustrations, it would be probably be considered to be a substantial part of the book, in and of itself. Then, some would say it's not fair use. Basically you would simply be republishing it, a privilege (presumably) not given to you by the author, and by doing so you are reducing the need of your members to purchase the work themselves, and affecting the author's income. Others may say that it is fair use, arguing that it is part of a larger nonprofit educational use with limited impact on the author. Only a court could decide for sure, if suit is brought by the author. I don't know how many people are on your "member's only website", but I myself tend to side with the author on this because posting to a web site is not in itself a creative act (unlike incorporating it into an organized educational lesson plan, which typically involves commentary by the teacher, exercises, etc.). The more people who have access to it, the more people have less incentive to buy the book. Would posting it help sell the book? Maybe, but that's the author's decision. Try contacting them for permission. S R C A cott obert ranston nderson [email protected] Admin, {C{offield,ollosky,ranston,ummins},OHGuerns,USAGen}[email protected] USGenWeb Coordinator, http://www.usgennet.org/usa/oh/county/guernsey/

Michael, Make sure that the copyright seems valid. Is it drawn by the person who claims the copyright, or could it be a public domain map which someone just has in their 1987 book? People claim copyrights on their books, but sometimes less than 10% of it is actually copyrighted. Cliff Michael Allison wrote: > Hi. > I need some help please. I moderate a genealogy e-mail list for a NC county. Recently we've been discussing the Walton War, the 1810 conflict that occurred between Georgia and North Carolina within the NC county discussed on the list. A member has located a map that shows historical features relative to our discussion and today offered to copy and post the map on our members' only website. The map bears a copyright date of 1987. > > I've asked to hold off until getting some opinions. To my thinking, we cannot copy and post that map on the website. Or am I utterly wrong? Might that act fall under fair use? Thanks if anyone can help with this matter. > Michael Allison > > ==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== > Threaded archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/COPYRIGHT-L/ > > ============================== > Search more than 150 million free records at RootsWeb! > http://searches.rootsweb.com/

I haven't seen the map, but I believe it is a private entity. And it most definitely states a 1987 copyright. Sorry I can't tell you more as the map has not been shared or posted over the list for me to see it. thanks. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: W. David Samuelsen <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:25 PM Subject: Re: maps and copyright > who made that map? Government? Private entity? > > David >

who made that map? Government? Private entity? David Michael Allison wrote: > > Hi. > I need some help please. I moderate a genealogy e-mail list for a NC county. Recently we've been discussing the Walton War, the 1810 conflict that occurred between Georgia and North Carolina within the NC county discussed on the list. A member has located a map that shows historical features relative to our discussion and today offered to copy and post the map on our members' only website. The map bears a copyright date of 1987. > > I've asked to hold off until getting some opinions. To my thinking, we cannot copy and post that map on the website. Or am I utterly wrong? Might that act fall under fair use? Thanks if anyone can help with this matter. > Michael Allison >

Hi. I need some help please. I moderate a genealogy e-mail list for a NC county. Recently we've been discussing the Walton War, the 1810 conflict that occurred between Georgia and North Carolina within the NC county discussed on the list. A member has located a map that shows historical features relative to our discussion and today offered to copy and post the map on our members' only website. The map bears a copyright date of 1987. I've asked to hold off until getting some opinions. To my thinking, we cannot copy and post that map on the website. Or am I utterly wrong? Might that act fall under fair use? Thanks if anyone can help with this matter. Michael Allison

To all who responded, I want to say thank you. Mike, I appreciate the public domain info in regards to 1964. You have all been helpful. christine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

need to ask this guy (I don't mean Mike) what the memorials this guy has, to describe what they are. If they're the ones that are given out at funeral services, then basic facts are pretty standard. David Mike Goad wrote: > > Hi, > > A couple of things for consideration: > > 1. If it can't be posted on GenConnect because of copyright issues, it > probably shouldn't be published anywhere. Whether it is sold for profit or > not, copyright infringement still applies. > > 2. If it's 50 years old, it probably is in the public domain. There would > seldom be any commercial value for anything published that long ago, > especially obituaries or memorials. Works published in the U.S. or a > foreign country before January 1, 1964, entered the public domain if the > copyright was never renewed by filing a renewal application during the 28th > year after publication. The Copyright Office estimates that only about 15 > percent of those works from before 1964 were actually renewed. Most of > those that were renewed were renewed because they continued to have some > sort of economic value. > > 3. Even in the unlikely event that the copyright of the publication of the > document containing the memorial was renewed, use of the memorial would > almost certainly fall under the "fair use" provisions of copyright law. > > Mike > http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks/genealogy/copyright/copyright.htm > > At 10:25 PM 2/13/01 -0800, Christine R wrote: > >Ok. Let me see if I understand copyrightable material. An obit is not > >necessarily copyrighted as there is no real originality. They all > >basically follow the same pattern: so-and-so died, date, services will be, > >survivers are,... But a memorial is a mini bio of the person written by > >friend or family and therefore very original. So, I can post family obits > >to genconnect boards, but not the accompaning memorial? Is there any > >place where it would be accepted for the memorial to be posted? Can it be > >included in a compilation of family history, if the book is not sold for > >profit? I ask because I have several memorials on various family members > >(about 50 yrs ago) that help to make these people *alive* & I really want > >to share them. > > > >thanks for any feed-back. > >christine > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > >==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== > >Check out the new communities at RootsWeb > >http://www.communities.rootsweb.com/ > > > >============================== > >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > > > > ==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== > Threaded archives at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/COPYRIGHT-L/ > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com

Hi, A couple of things for consideration: 1. If it can't be posted on GenConnect because of copyright issues, it probably shouldn't be published anywhere. Whether it is sold for profit or not, copyright infringement still applies. 2. If it's 50 years old, it probably is in the public domain. There would seldom be any commercial value for anything published that long ago, especially obituaries or memorials. Works published in the U.S. or a foreign country before January 1, 1964, entered the public domain if the copyright was never renewed by filing a renewal application during the 28th year after publication. The Copyright Office estimates that only about 15 percent of those works from before 1964 were actually renewed. Most of those that were renewed were renewed because they continued to have some sort of economic value. 3. Even in the unlikely event that the copyright of the publication of the document containing the memorial was renewed, use of the memorial would almost certainly fall under the "fair use" provisions of copyright law. Mike http://www.cswnet.com/~sbooks/genealogy/copyright/copyright.htm At 10:25 PM 2/13/01 -0800, Christine R wrote: >Ok. Let me see if I understand copyrightable material. An obit is not >necessarily copyrighted as there is no real originality. They all >basically follow the same pattern: so-and-so died, date, services will be, >survivers are,... But a memorial is a mini bio of the person written by >friend or family and therefore very original. So, I can post family obits >to genconnect boards, but not the accompaning memorial? Is there any >place where it would be accepted for the memorial to be posted? Can it be >included in a compilation of family history, if the book is not sold for >profit? I ask because I have several memorials on various family members >(about 50 yrs ago) that help to make these people *alive* & I really want >to share them. > >thanks for any feed-back. >christine >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > >==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== >Check out the new communities at RootsWeb >http://www.communities.rootsweb.com/ > >============================== >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

all the memorials I have seen are usually standard pattern of basic facts. No originality. There may be one or two that are unique. David Samuelsen Christine R wrote: > > Ok. Let me see if I understand copyrightable material. An obit is not > necessarily copyrighted as there is no real originality. They all basically > follow the same pattern: so-and-so died, date, services will be, survivers > are,... But a memorial is a mini bio of the person written by friend or > family and therefore very original. So, I can post family obits to > genconnect boards, but not the accompaning memorial? Is there any place > where it would be accepted for the memorial to be posted? Can it be > included in a compilation of family history, if the book is not sold for > profit? I ask because I have several memorials on various family members > (about 50 yrs ago) that help to make these people *alive* & I really want to > share them. > > thanks for any feed-back. > christine > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ==== COPYRIGHT Mailing List ==== > Check out the new communities at RootsWeb > http://www.communities.rootsweb.com/ > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2

Ok. Let me see if I understand copyrightable material. An obit is not necessarily copyrighted as there is no real originality. They all basically follow the same pattern: so-and-so died, date, services will be, survivers are,... But a memorial is a mini bio of the person written by friend or family and therefore very original. So, I can post family obits to genconnect boards, but not the accompaning memorial? Is there any place where it would be accepted for the memorial to be posted? Can it be included in a compilation of family history, if the book is not sold for profit? I ask because I have several memorials on various family members (about 50 yrs ago) that help to make these people *alive* & I really want to share them. thanks for any feed-back. christine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com